Re: Penetrating Counter Air / Next Generation Air Dominance
Posted: 27 Jan 2020, 22:59
zero-one wrote:You're making the argument that no variant of the F-22 will meet PCA requirements
I'm making the argument that a modernized version can meet the requirements for at least 1 of the components of PCA.
particularly the one that needs speed, maneuverability and some form of low observability. -Col Alex Grynkewich
Problem is PCA requirements have not been finalized yet. yes we know they want more range but by how much?
A Raptor with a 750 nmi combat radius cannot go to China and back with 1 tank of gas but it will significantly reduce tanker requirements.
The point is you need much more supporting assets to make an upgraded F-22 meet PCA requirements especially in shortcomings in range and stealth, compare to clean sheet design, so do you really save money by going with F-22?
750 nmi is not enough of increase over current F-22 combat radius, that's only as much as F-35A subsonic combat radius. And it makes sense because F-35A carries same amount of fuel as F-22 with only one engine, F-22 airframe is too compact and limited, unless you go back more like YF-22 and make fuselage bulkier, but then you lose supersonic performance.
zero-one wrote:The argument that a Raptor is too limited because it's 20 years old holds no water as well. The F-15X is basically a rehash of a 50 year old design, we (myself included) literally laughed at Boeing for even proposing that to the USAF, touting that the F-35 is better in every way shape or form, but it looks like Boeing is laughing back at us now.
The whole F-15X idea dubious and I don't think USAF should go for it, but if the goal is to just get more airframes quickly, there is at least one thing with F-15 you don't have with F-22, and that is active production line. Some decision maker in Pentagon sees active F-15 production as a chance to do get more airframes at not too much cost. Personally I don't agree with that since the better should be put in increased F-35 production (not much different in price from F-15X) and in PCA, but I guess for missions that don't require stealth like basic air policing F-15X might be enough.
zero-one wrote:That should give you an idea of the mentality the USAF has now. Grynkewich said it perfectly " This generational paradigm is outdated. We needed that integrated network of capabilities; there is no silver bullet"
Developing every single component of the PCA from scratch, its just too costly and time consuming. Specially with the 2030 time frame they want.
Are we saying 2030 just for sake of 2030? Nearsighted focus on just 2030 will cost more in the long run especially if PCA is sacrificed. And like I said if you want some super F-22 to do PCA mission you need a lot more support assets so in the end do you really save money? And what about threats beyond what F-22 can handle since you delayed PCA?
zero-one wrote:Neither I nor they know the final B-21 design so no one is laughing anytime soon. But if the B-21 is indeed partially influenced by the original B-2 in any way, then thats my point, call it clean sheet, call it whatever, PCA can get it's design queues from the Raptor, just like F-15X, F/A-18E, F-2 and F-21
But all of this relies on the final requirements for PCA, until it gets finalized, any back and forth bantering here is pointless
We know enough to know B-21 has fundamentally different engine arrangement, intake, size, materials, etc. To even say B-21 is a derivative of B-2 with these differences is laughable.
zero-one wrote:Everyone against this proposal is getting hung up on the fact that no version of the F-22 will be able to fulfill the range requirements for PCA. A fact that I totally agree on. But it doesn't have to, there will be other platforms for that specific mission. There are so many other missions that don't require aircraft to go to China and back.
No version of F-22 can meet RCS requirements either. You need to make so many changes like different tail arrangement, longer fuselage, different wing, that you're better off starting new, and ESPECIALLY since F-22 production line doesn't exist anymore. F-22 is also behind in things like electrical power and having hydraulics instead of more modern actuators, these aren't trivial to replace since you also have to redo cooling and other stuff.
I don't get why you're so into F-22. It's a great aircraft, and we should have more of it, but that should have happened when the production was still open. Now it's totally different situation. Developing PCA and upgrading existing F-22 and F-35 can give consistent edge over adversaries from now to 2050 and beyond. Delaying PCA for some F-22 derivative which will be less capable will just give adversaries more time to catch up for no good reason.