Tempest

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post27 Nov 2022, 16:51

Despite what Corsair1963 wants to think, the US NGAD/PCA is likely only going to be operated by USAF, and right now they’re pressing ahead with the program while waiting for no one and not even bothering with trying to partner with other countries. In fact, the aircraft is likely even more expensive per unit than an F-22, there is no one that can afford that other than USAF.

The Tempest does look to be quite a bit smaller, I’m guessing something in between F-22 and F-35 in terms of size.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post28 Nov 2022, 00:46

disconnectedradical wrote:Despite what Corsair1963 wants to think, the US NGAD/PCA is likely only going to be operated by USAF, and right now they’re pressing ahead with the program while waiting for no one and not even bothering with trying to partner with other countries. In fact, the aircraft is likely even more expensive per unit than an F-22, there is no one that can afford that other than USAF.

The Tempest does look to be quite a bit smaller, I’m guessing something in between F-22 and F-35 in terms of size.



The F-22 (ATF) was capped at 187 aircraft and the the Naval Version (NATF) was out right canceled. Yet, both types would have still shared many of the same components. Even then they just proved to be to expensive......

Now fast track today and the USAF and USN are designing two separate and completely new designs. :|

Anybody really want to take odds on that staying the course.... :wink:
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Corsair1963

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Unread post28 Nov 2022, 00:50

talkitron wrote:The Financial Times (subscription) has a long read article on the potential partnership between Italy, Japan and the UK on F-X/Tempest. The article focuses a bit more on the relationship between Japan rather than the relationship between the UK and Italy. The article's discussion is more on the political, intellectual property and budgetary decisions rather than technical details of the aircraft. It is not pinned down whether Japan and the UK will build separate aircraft or a common aircraft. Some initial agreements might be signed within 30 days, to meet legislative budget deadlines. The business case to proceed at full blast would be presented to the governments in 2025.

The initial budgets are not trivial, using the numbers quoted below give spending of $2.5 billion, perhaps over multiple years, by the UK and $1 billion in a single year by Japan. On the other hand, US programs like the F-35 and NGAD USAF have much bigger budgets.

Two of those people say negotiators have yet to reach an agreement on how the costs will be distributed between the countries. Japan plans to boost its defence budget by roughly 11 per cent to more than ¥6tn ($42bn) for the year to March 2024, including a request for ¥143.2bn to develop the new fighter. Meanwhile, the British government has said it would commit an initial £2bn towards the project.

But both countries are under pressure to reduce the development costs and are seeking a greater contribution from Italy. Although Rome recently increased its financial commitments to the programme, the country may struggle given the significant budget demands, according to Trevor Taylor, professorial research fellow at the Royal United Services Institute.


https://www.ft.com/content/a013530d-82f9-4a89-b5cf-5d76032d8c47



The question is can Japan and the UK really count on Italy staying the course with the Tempest Program. Considering what happen between Italy and the JSF Program.

It would give me pause.......
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madrat

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Unread post28 Nov 2022, 12:42

Italy has been a more reliable partner than France or Germany. They also are on the doorstep to the Baltics, where any future war is sure to be seeded.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post28 Nov 2022, 15:29

Corsair1963 wrote:The F-22 (ATF) was capped at 187 aircraft and the the Naval Version (NATF) was out right canceled. Yet, both types would have still shared many of the same components. Even then they just proved to be to expensive......

Now fast track today and the USAF and USN are designing two separate and completely new designs. :|

Anybody really want to take odds on that staying the course.... :wink:


:roll:

There is no way USAF and USN will be having similar airframes, the USAF NGAD/PCA will probably be too large for carriers. Unlike the F-35 where foreign partners were brought in from the beginning of the program, NGAD/PCA is USAF only and they’re not waiting to try to partner with anyone, and they’re only focused on their requirements.

NATF got canceled because of budget cuts from the end of Cold War, and also it’s more of an afterthought, while the F-22/ATF was always the main focus.

There’s a reason why Tempest is attracting so many partners including Japan. Just like the F-22, the NGAD/PCA will probably be specifically designed for USAF and extremely expensive, and unaffordable for foreign countries. So no, Japan is not going to part of NGAD.
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timmymagic

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Unread post02 Dec 2022, 09:42

madrat wrote:Italy has been a more reliable partner than France or Germany. They also are on the doorstep to the Baltics, where any future war is sure to be seeded.


Are you sure about your geography there.....what with Italy being rarely associated with the Baltic Sea...given its in the Mediterranean Sea...

The Baltics are safe as houses now...Finland and Sweden joining NATO puts paid to any Russian nonsense there...the Baltic Sea is now a NATO lake...the Russian's might as well disband the Baltic Fleet as it hasn't a hope of geting out of port in a real shooting war...
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Unread post02 Dec 2022, 09:46

And it looks like its about to happen....

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerosp ... 022-12-02/
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steve2267

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Unread post04 Dec 2022, 03:40

(Reuters wouldn't let me view their article.)

The UK & Japan can call Tempest / FCAS 6th Generation all they want. I'm not buying it. From the perspective that every "generation" in the past has represented some new capability that instantly gave the new generation of aircraft a key advantage over all previous "generation" of aircraft (e.g. jet engine > piston prop; swept wing + IR missiles > 1st gen jet; radar + SAR missiles > swept wing; superior EM characteristics + pulse doppler radar + HUD > 3rd gen; disappear switch + sensor fusion > 4th gen). I see nothing in the described list of characteristics that makes this aircraft superior to the F-35. It is approximately the size of the F-35 from all the mockups (perhaps between the F-22 and the F-35), has sensor fusion, integrated LPI data networking etc.

So the UK and Japan are developing their own "sovereign" F-35 or F-35+ aircraft. And I think that is terrific. Timmy the magic man has described how the UK now is US ITAR-free for all its air-to-air missiles. Japan has a very good engineering and aerospace industrial base from which to contribute to this program. IHI has a lot of expertise in gas turbines. But I would expect Rolls Royce to lead the development of an AETP-class motor, as RR had been involved in the AETD program, the immediate predecessor to AETP.

Tempest / FCAS is a terrific opportunity for Saab, and I believe they have a lot to offer. Hopefully this all works out for them.

Bringing Dassault or Airbus in would be like mixing very spoilt cream in your coffee. I just do not see them playing nice with the other children in the 21st century advance tactical aircraft sandbox.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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talkitron

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Unread post09 Dec 2022, 07:05

The name of the new collaboration between the UK, Japan and Italy is the Global Combat Air Programme, or GCAP. Many articles will be written in the coming days about this alliance. The in-service date is 2035.
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zero-one

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Unread post09 Dec 2022, 09:35

54F12286-3306-49AF-8945-A5CCE71E72E4.jpeg
If this is in fact the actual aerodynamic layout of the tempest, then what kind of performance can we expect?

Agility:
They dropped the Canards so does that mean maneuverability is no longer a goal? Then again the Mirage had no Canards but the only complaint I ever heard from it was that it lacked power. The F-106 could also allegedly out turn an F-15 early before loosing energy. Does that mean if you put enough thrust on a Delta it will turn well and sustain it.

Speed:
It doesn’t look like its meant to go Mach 3, usually supersonic dash airframes have smaller wings.

Range:
Usually long range involves high aspect ratio, But this looks like it won’t need that, the UK, Japan and the others don’t have the range requirements of the US anyway.

To me this looks like a relatively high speed interceptor ala stealth F-106. What do you guys think
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Unread post09 Dec 2022, 10:39

Its more a reflection that UK lacks funding to complete tempest on its own. Missing is a next gen AAM. Japan seems to be further in engine development so it's a jump start for UK. It's still likely a 2x35k lb engine fighter with xf9 as it's core but RR's experience will push it into service with a likely boost to electrical demands.
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pigmode

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Unread post09 Dec 2022, 16:18

zero-one wrote:
54F12286-3306-49AF-8945-A5CCE71E72E4.jpeg
If this is in fact the actual aerodynamic layout of the tempest, then what kind of performance can we expect?

Agility:
They dropped the Canards so does that mean maneuverability is no longer a goal? Then again the Mirage had no Canards but the only complaint I ever heard from it was that it lacked power. The F-106 could also allegedly out turn an F-15 early before loosing energy. Does that mean if you put enough thrust on a Delta it will turn well and sustain it.

Speed:
It doesn’t look like its meant to go Mach 3, usually supersonic dash airframes have smaller wings.

Range:
Usually long range involves high aspect ratio, But this looks like it won’t need that, the UK, Japan and the others don’t have the range requirements of the US anyway.

To me this looks like a relatively high speed interceptor ala stealth F-106. What do you guys think




In terms of canards it almost seems a 6th Gen requirement to side with LO over agility. With time I'd be surprised if these rough mock ups don't eventually show a tailess design.
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steve2267

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Unread post09 Dec 2022, 19:27

Since when does "canards == automatic agility"?

Hasn't LM performed enough flight control magic tricks to show that the F-22 / F-35 type layout, with potentially positive lift in the rear, actually more agile than canards?

What to expect? Two motors... drinks more gas than an F-35. Unclear that it carries gobs more gas than an F-35. Performance? F-35-like. Top speed 1.6-2.0 Mach, requirements and air-intake design dependent. Range? Doubt it is more than an F-35. F-35 may actually have better agility with both horizontal and vertical (canted) tail surfaces. So F-35 may roll better and have better high alpha capability.

IMHO, two motors is the biggest handicap I see. Two motors --> needs more gas --> bigger / heavier aircraft --> more expensive. More expensive is challenging because their total units sold number probably far less than F-35.

So this is an F-35 or F-35+ type, sovereign aircraft. And good for them.

But the real magic is in the electronic gizmos and VLO characteristics. That is what everyone oughta be asking / musing about.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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nutshell

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Unread post09 Dec 2022, 22:48

madrat wrote:Italy has been a more reliable partner than France or Germany. They also are on the doorstep to the Baltics, where any future war is sure to be seeded.

Lenardo is a much better company than anything the UK and France have. Way ahead even in computing power since they got a real Supercomputer just for this project.
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