South Korean KF-21 nearing first flight.

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Corsair1963

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8957
  • Joined: 19 Dec 2005, 04:14

Unread post28 Sep 2022, 08:01

madrat wrote:Fuel fraction tends to be significantly higher in 5G fighters. That extra space can be used for an even larger fuel fraction.



Yet, the KF-21 internal fuel capacity is ~ 12,000 lbs. Yet, the F-35As is ~ 18,000 lbs! Also, my guess is the single P&W F135 is likely more fuel efficient. Then the two GE F414s in the KF-21. (speculating)


While both types make about the same power. (43,000 - 44,000 lbs of thrust) Of course if the F-35 gets the XA100 (or XA101) that will totally change.
Offline

milosh

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1935
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post28 Sep 2022, 08:17

Corsair1963 wrote:
madrat wrote:Fuel fraction tends to be significantly higher in 5G fighters. That extra space can be used for an even larger fuel fraction.



Yet, the KF-21 internal fuel capacity is ~ 12,000 lbs. Yet, the F-35As is ~ 18,000 lbs! Also, my guess is the single P&W F135 is likely more fuel efficient. Then the two GE F414s in the KF-21. (speculating)


While both types make about the same power. (43,000 - 44,000 lbs of thrust) Of course if the F-35 gets the XA100 (or XA101) that will totally change.


And you have F-22 which have 18.000lbs which was consider more then enough, I dont think KF21 is really that bad with 12.000lbs WHEN it get internal bay, until then it would need drop tanks for any decent strike mission.
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5471
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Nashua NH USA

Unread post28 Sep 2022, 14:43

milosh wrote:And you have F-22 which have 18.000lbs which was consider more then enough

The 18k for the F-22 was never considered more than enough. Going from YF-22 to F-22 the AF had to choose two between Range, Speed, and Maneuverability. They chose Speed and Maneuverability. Note that speeds for the F-22 exceed those of the YF-22 and YF-23. They had to sacrifice internal volume to fine tune the form to minimize wave drag.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
-PFD Systems Engineer
-PATRIOT Systems Engineer
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1668
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post28 Sep 2022, 16:37

Corsair1963 wrote:
madrat wrote:Fuel fraction tends to be significantly higher in 5G fighters. That extra space can be used for an even larger fuel fraction.



Yet, the KF-21 internal fuel capacity is ~ 12,000 lbs. Yet, the F-35As is ~ 18,000 lbs! Also, my guess is the single P&W F135 is likely more fuel efficient. Then the two GE F414s in the KF-21. (speculating)


While both types make about the same power. (43,000 - 44,000 lbs of thrust) Of course if the F-35 gets the XA100 (or XA101) that will totally change.


Okay we get it...
You love the F-35 and believe it is the end all be all.
I thought this thread was about the Korean KF-21... NOT another F-35 versus topic.
Offline

milosh

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1935
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post28 Sep 2022, 17:20

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
milosh wrote:And you have F-22 which have 18.000lbs which was consider more then enough

The 18k for the F-22 was never considered more than enough. Going from YF-22 to F-22 the AF had to choose two between Range, Speed, and Maneuverability. They chose Speed and Maneuverability. Note that speeds for the F-22 exceed those of the YF-22 and YF-23. They had to sacrifice internal volume to fine tune the form to minimize wave drag.


Well ATF purpose was over with end of cold war so as interceptor F-22 fuel fraction was more then enough. For what it was design to do WW3 in Europe where it will fly from distant airfields which Soviets couldn't pulverise F-22 would lack fuel.

If USAF did decide to have bigger FF it wouldn't still be enough for China and to be frank no one in 1990s think about China as next USSR.

So F-22 ff is okey, could be better but no real need for that.

On other hand F-23 as NG planned it to be, well that thing would have RANGE.

But I think KF21 would be okey with 12k lb of fuel especailly when it will be able to carry weapons internally. I mean for what they will need F-35A like range?
Offline
User avatar

sferrin

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 5870
  • Joined: 22 Jul 2005, 03:23

Unread post29 Sep 2022, 02:30



"There I was. . ."
Offline

charlielima223

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1668
  • Joined: 12 Jan 2014, 19:26

Unread post29 Sep 2022, 03:13

Great to see the progress South Korea is making on this project. I wonder however if South Korea will still be able to keep this progress at this pace with Indonesia seemingly falling behind on payments. We all know that programs require money, Russia found this out real hard when India pulled out of the PAKFA program. If Indonesia doesn't pay up, will this be Asia's equivalent to the Su-57?

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia ... -payments/
The deputy defense minister also visited the 37 Indonesian engineering personnel stationed at KAI as part of the joint development program during his visit and expressed hope that the number of Indonesians involved in the program will grow to 100 by the end of this year.

However, he did not offer any more clarity on Indonesia’s arrears in paying its share of the program’s development costs. Indonesia agreed to contribute 20% of the costs when it joined the program in 2010 but started falling behind on payments since 2017.

According to South Korean media reports, Indonesia has failed to stick to a repayment schedule both countries agreed upon in November 2021 despite multiple promises to resolve the issue from various officials, including its president, Joko Widodo. As of July, the country was reportedly behind to the tune of $557 million.
Offline
User avatar

edpop

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 982
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2008, 20:43
  • Location: Macomb, Michigan

Unread post29 Sep 2022, 07:56

Vietnam veteran (70th Combat Engineer Battalion)(AnKhe & Pleiku) 1967
Retired from Chrysler Engineering
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4975
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post29 Sep 2022, 14:55

Pretty bird, but they are just re-creating the wheel (F-35) and that wheel doesn't roll until Block III gets here - maybe.

Indonesia (supposedly, footing 20% of the bill) is long on promises, short on the follow through. More than half a BILLION short, and we're asked to believe they'll somehow find this money and from then on... everything will be fine? Er, no. Who's going to buy this bird, other than S. Korea?

India?

They could really use a stealthy strike fighter, which means Block I and II likely won't do. Throw in US concerns surrounding the engines and other tech, and it's doubtful. Besides, they have their own indigenous nightmare program to manage - Tejas.

Ukraine?

Would be perfect - 'cept its years away and they might not be around tomorrow (if Vlad's having a bad day). Nor may they have the $. Most western weapons coming into the country today can be considered gifts. Doubt S. Korea will be giving these away for free. Especially when surplus US/NATO F-16's, 18's and possibly even F-15's would be available sooner, cheaper and/or complete overkill.

Iran?

The need is there to replace old F-4s and F-5's, just like S. Korea is proposing. But suffice it to say the US would never allow it. Plus, they claim to already have a home grown stealth fighter, lol.. And from what I've seen, it actually appears as if some Iranian military higher ups believe it..

Taiwan?

Sure, if it was a real stealth aircraft... but block I and II are not, just "quasi stealth". They'd get slaughtered by real Chinese stealth fighters, IADS etc.. Even if marginally effective when procured, they'd be obsolete almost upon entry into service. Certainly within 5 years, and that assumes the US would again, allow it (doubtful).

S.Korea itself will likely be the sole customer, and even that's questionable right now. Given the cost, almost certainly won't be a 1:1 replacement for the F-4/5 fleet. And even if it does somehow replace some F-4's/5's, where does the $ come from to upgrade the early block I's an II's, to truly stealthy block III standards? You already have a truly stealthy 5th gen flying in your air force, at a unit cost lower than most 4+ gen competitors - the F-35A. Any attempt to buy large blocks of KF-21's is only going to add more cost, both in terms of unit price, separate training, spare parts and other logistical nightmares.

You can sum up this program's future in 4 words IMO: Just buy more F-35's...
Offline

milosh

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1935
  • Joined: 27 Feb 2008, 23:40
  • Location: Serbia, Belgrade

Unread post29 Sep 2022, 16:03

Poland is interested in Block2:
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/08/04 ... -fighters/

I expect rich Arab states could be buyers. Don't forget UAE used cooperation with Russia on some light medium fighter as pressure for F-35 sale, some even say Su-75 roots are from that project.

So buying KF-21 would pressure US to sell F-35 becuase it can lose rich market, and if they still can't get F-35 they will need to get something else stealthy.

Why Arabs would need stealth or stealthy fighter? Because Iran is getting Su-35 and paying them with drones. It is expected Russians to sell them R-37 or to integrate Fakour-90 with Su-35.

There will be only two options, KF-21 and Chinese JF-31. I don't think US will be happy if they buy second.
Offline

not_kent

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 79
  • Joined: 12 Aug 2021, 12:59

Unread post07 Oct 2022, 10:48

milosh wrote:Poland is interested in Block2:
https://www.overtdefense.com/2022/08/04 ... -fighters/


Poland is buying the FA-50 trainer and light combat aircraft which Korea Aerospace Industries developed in collaboration with Lockheed Martin, which builds the F-16.

Therefore, the FA-50 shares design elements and components with the F-16, simplifying maintenance and pilot training.

You are reading a lot into a single quote from Minister of Defence Mariusz Blaszczak;

“We will bring the already contracted F-35 deliveries forward. In a further perspective we plan to obtain additional F-35s or F-15s and we are closely monitoring the progress of our Korean partners on the KF-21 Boramae project.”

Monitoring progress is far from being interested in buying. If anything getting more F-35's would make the most sense which is part of their plan (or F-15's).
Offline

litzj

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 45
  • Joined: 06 Jun 2016, 00:29

Unread post23 Oct 2022, 09:58

https://jaesan-aero.blogspot.com/2022/10/sacheon-airshow-2022.html

1st static display for public in Sacheon 2022 airshow
Previous

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 29 guests