Su-57 Felon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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charlielima223

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Unread post12 May 2022, 22:29

nutshell wrote:SU75 is the heir to the SCAM-FA PROGRAM.


India isnt going to jump in those waters again. They are better off jumping on board the KAI KF-21. The Su-57 is dead in the water and isnt going anywhere. At this point it is nothing more than a vanity project and airshow demonstrator.
I think the only recognition it will get outside of Russia (other than video games) will be part of the boss fight in a movir for a fictional wreckless USN fighter pilot who should have been grounded for all the safety violations in his career or was constantly passed over for promotion.
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edpop

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Unread post13 May 2022, 04:47

Who cares what the SU-57 can do or not do. After what we have seen over the skies of Ukraine the Russian fighter mystique is nothing but smoke and mirrors.
Vietnam veteran (70th Combat Engineer Battalion)(AnKhe & Pleiku) 1967
Retired from Chrysler Engineering
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mixelflick

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Unread post13 May 2022, 13:13

Despite Ukraine/sanctions etc, I still think they make a go of it.

National vanity project, Vlad won't let it die. Unless maybe he does, but I still think it'll somehow survive. Look how long they took to get the Flanker right. OK, it's not performing well in Ukraine - but a lot of that is poor planning/leadership. The SU-35 (despite being shot down via ground fire) is still a respectable machine. According to Ukranian Mig-29 pilot "Juice", it still commands their respect.

So even if they just field 50, it'll still be a program of record. Likely the least produced/feared of all wanna be 5th gens, but they've got over a decade now sunk into it. The SU-75 will never materialize, not after Ukraine. The SU-57 is the only solution... much like the F-35 is for Western airpower.

That, and the new engine for it will continue to be developed IMO...
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madrat

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Unread post14 May 2022, 00:58

What barriers prevent Russia from fielding Su-57 or -75? Certainly not energy, materials, knowledge, or persistence. Never underestimate them.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post14 May 2022, 07:35

madrat wrote:What barriers prevent Russia from fielding Su-57 or -75? Certainly not energy, materials, knowledge, or persistence. Never underestimate them.




The Su-75 was nothing more than a concept looking for a partner to co-develop it. Yet, that possibility is pretty much gone now.....
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ricnunes

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Unread post14 May 2022, 13:22

madrat wrote:What barriers prevent Russia from fielding Su-57 or -75? Certainly not energy, materials, knowledge, or persistence. Never underestimate them.


The "problem" or "barrier" is that the Russian tank turrets fly better than the Su-75 :devil:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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zhangmdev

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Unread post14 May 2022, 16:58

One of the biggest and most expensive problems/barriers to the development of Su-57.

OIP-C.UWeL34AZGdcW-c9edtaGaQHaEK.jpg
super is not enough yacht
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pigmode

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Unread post16 May 2022, 17:16

ricnunes wrote:
madrat wrote:What barriers prevent Russia from fielding Su-57 or -75? Certainly not energy, materials, knowledge, or persistence. Never underestimate them.


The "problem" or "barrier" is that the Russian tank turrets fly better than the Su-75 :devil:



That and the fact they were able to mobilize only two of three T14 tanks on parade day, and semi-cloudy skies prevented any SU-57 from taking off at all.
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 May 2022, 15:58

The absence of ANY aircraft whatsoever was damning IMO, and a big departure from Putin's known affinity for it. He either decided to snub the entire aviation element, or simply didn't have the gas. Given they had enough for rehearsal, I tend to think it's the former.

He likely believed all the hype surrounding Russian combat aircraft, thinking they would carry the day. When they couldn't, he decided to stick it to his aviation element - no applause or adulation for them. Unmistakable message. How that impacts things like the SU-57 etc. from here, it's hard to say.

After the disaster in Ukraine, his main task will be re-building his army. And if he's smart, logistics and training will get a big an infusion of rubles as the actual equipment. But... will there be money for both? Especially with the sanctions? It's hard to see, to be totally honest...
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milosh

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Unread post19 May 2022, 19:54

This could be end of Flankers if this happens:
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ru ... 05.article

Rostec mentioned S70 production is starting in 2023, and Su75 in 2027, also RuAF is mentioned as first buyer for Su75 so no more fighter primarily for export.

I expect Su75 is going to be done it two variants, first cheap one to replace Flankers, later expensive one to be alternative to Su57 or maybe even Felon killer?

I mean Su75 can carry one more medium AAM! Su57 from what we know carry four AIM-120 class weapons, Su75 carry five.

If they are armed with combination of heavy weapons and medium AAMs, then they carry same number of weapons.

Su57 have advantage in dogfight (two R74 and gun) plus better kinematics, but on other hand Su-75 is much smaller on radar.

S70 on other hand make Flanker big carring capacity more less pointless.

Btw I would like to see upgraded MiG-31 finally get A-G capability, it would be interesting stand off platform, much better then Flanker.
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ricnunes

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Unread post19 May 2022, 21:23

Does the Su-75 and S-70 come with turrets?? :twisted:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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mixelflick

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Unread post20 May 2022, 16:44

milosh wrote:This could be end of Flankers if this happens:
https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/ru ... 05.article

Rostec mentioned S70 production is starting in 2023, and Su75 in 2027, also RuAF is mentioned as first buyer for Su75 so no more fighter primarily for export.

I expect Su75 is going to be done it two variants, first cheap one to replace Flankers, later expensive one to be alternative to Su57 or maybe even Felon killer?

I mean Su75 can carry one more medium AAM! Su57 from what we know carry four AIM-120 class weapons, Su75 carry five.

If they are armed with combination of heavy weapons and medium AAMs, then they carry same number of weapons.

Su57 have advantage in dogfight (two R74 and gun) plus better kinematics, but on other hand Su-75 is much smaller on radar.

S70 on other hand make Flanker big carring capacity more less pointless.

Btw I would like to see upgraded MiG-31 finally get A-G capability, it would be interesting stand off platform, much better then Flanker.


Flankers are going to be around a long, long time Milosh.

Announcements such as this are a great example of Russia's credibility problem: Big plans, then things go bust. If they can't properly field a combat ready fleet of SU-57's (which they've been working on for 10 years), what makes you think they'll make good on the SU-75?

It just seems increasingly far fetched, especially the shape they'll be in post Ukraine (if that ever ends, which it might - in Russia's defeat). Even if the expertise is there, its doubtful the $ will be. Which is a shame, because I do really enjoy the solutions Russian design bureaus have variously brought forth over the years. They are at a tipping point however, and it appears they're about to slip into the abyss, never to re-emerge - even as "superpower light".

I think the Flanker's fate is pretty secure. Modernized SU-30's, SU-34's and SU-35's will continue to form the backbone of the VKS for a long time. I just can't see them replacing any Flanker variant 1:1 with the SU-75, or anything new really. The next few years (perhaps decades) are going to be really lean...
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milosh

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Unread post20 May 2022, 20:06

@mixelflick

I was talking about buying Flankers in big numbers, of course they will still be used.

If we talk about money I already explain it eariler, it is all about gas and oil price, if it is high Russia don't have any big money problems. I mean look ruble, today is is 60 for dollar while when Russia close market in early days of war it was over 130 per dolar?!?

Asia is hungery for cheap energy and Russia is part of Asia so it is quite hard to see economical problems if energy prices are high.

What I try to explain but you and others don't understand is Su-75 price. Comparing Su-57 with it is nonsense. Su-57 is way more expensive.

In fact Su75 could cost less then Su35.

Impossible?

Look F-35A and F-15EX for example. And there weight difference isn't big, 13.3tons and 14.5tons

While Su35 is 19tons empty.
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ricnunes

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Unread post20 May 2022, 21:42

milosh wrote:@mixelflick

I was talking about buying Flankers in big numbers, of course they will still be used.

If we talk about money I already explain it eariler, it is all about gas and oil price, if it is high Russia don't have any big money problems. I mean look ruble, today is is 60 for dollar while when Russia close market in early days of war it was over 130 per dolar?!?

Asia is hungery for cheap energy and Russia is part of Asia so it is quite hard to see economical problems if energy prices are high.


If you believe that Russia can replace Europe which has been its best customer by far with the Asian market and receive the same or similar revenue than I have another bridge to sell you!

Basically, the problem is if Russia wants to sell the same amount of oil and/or gas to the Asian market as it once did to Europe then it must sell it at major discount prices since that same Asian market already has a well established oil and gas supply lines and in order to switch from those same established supply lines to the Russian ones then the price must compensate or more precisely be much, much cheaper than the competition.
And what does this mean to Russia?? It means that major cuts/earnings in revenues will continue! Or more precisely much less funds will be available to Russia compared to up to 3 months ago!

Here, read this:
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/03/busi ... raine.html


milosh wrote:What I try to explain but you and others don't understand is Su-75 price. Comparing Su-57 with it is nonsense. Su-57 is way more expensive.

In fact Su75 could cost less then Su35.

Impossible?

Look F-35A and F-15EX for example. And there weight difference isn't big, 13.3tons and 14.5tons

While Su35 is 19tons empty.


LOL :roll:

And you know why the F-35 is cheaper than the F-15EX and cheaper than most other modern/current new build fighter aircraft (like the Super Hornet, Rafale, Typhoon just to name a few)??
This is because more than three thousand (3000+) F-35's will be manufactured and so far nearly 800 have been built! This obviously mean smaller price/cost per unit. Good luck for the Russians to be able to build one hundred (100) or so Su-75 aircraft let alone thousands! (or even large hundreds!)
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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mixelflick

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Unread post21 May 2022, 14:14

milosh wrote:@mixelflick

I was talking about buying Flankers in big numbers, of course they will still be used.

If we talk about money I already explain it eariler, it is all about gas and oil price, if it is high Russia don't have any big money problems. I mean look ruble, today is is 60 for dollar while when Russia close market in early days of war it was over 130 per dolar?!?

Asia is hungery for cheap energy and Russia is part of Asia so it is quite hard to see economical problems if energy prices are high.

What I try to explain but you and others don't understand is Su-75 price. Comparing Su-57 with it is nonsense. Su-57 is way more expensive.

In fact Su75 could cost less then Su35.

Impossible?

Look F-35A and F-15EX for example. And there weight difference isn't big, 13.3tons and 14.5tons

While Su35 is 19tons empty.


I get the oil/gas price thing, but there's one really big problem - the Russian economy is almost exclusively dependent upon those prices. These countries beholden to Russia today... you can bet they're doing everything in their power to reduce dependence on Russia. Which means at some point in the future, they'll be buying far less (or none at all).

It's generally accepted a smaller, single engined and overall less capable aircraft is cheaper than a bigger, twin engined more capable one. But then you have the issue of small production runs, such as the SU-57 is encountering now. Even if there was a standing order for 1,000 SU-75's for the VKS, Russia may not have the $ to produce/field them. I won't even get into targeting pods, PGM's and other issues Russia is having.

It's possible (but not likely, IMO) India makes a large order, to fill its requirement for medium combat aircraft - and this more or less saves the program. But after what they experienced with the SU-57, it's not likely IMO. The crux of the issue is $, or more precisely rubles to fund development and testing of a new airframe. Yes parts can be used from the SU-57, but it will still require lots and lots of flight testing, weapons integration etc... As it stands right now, it appears that's all going to fall on Russia. Without a foreign investor to share that financial burden, the SU-75 making it to front line units is very, very unlikely IMO.
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