Tempest

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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krieger22

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Unread post22 Dec 2021, 20:18

Development on a joint engine demonstrator for Tempest and Japan's F-X is starting next year

The United Kingdom’s Ministry of Defence announced on Wednesday that it would be jointly developing a future fighter aircraft engine demonstrator with Japan. The demonstrator will inform the development of propulsion systems for both the Tempest Future Combat Air System and F-X programs.

Development work on the joint engine demonstrator will start in early 2022, with an initial £30 million invested by the United Kingdom in planning, digital designs and “innovative manufacturing developments”. A subsequent £200 million round of UK funding is planned for the development of a full-scale demonstrator power system, with the Ministry of Defence saying that it will support “hundreds” of highly skilled jobs at sites like Rolls-Royce’s Filton facility in Bristol.

Also announced was the signing of a memorandum of cooperation between the UK and Japanese Defence Ministries on the pursuit of jointly developed technologies. The memorandum will guide the exploration of the feasibility of further sub-systems collaboration throughout 2022. Team Tempest’s industry partners will be carrying out UK-based efforts, with current members of the Tempest program consortium including BAE Systems, Leonardo UK, MBDA UK and Rolls-Royce.

The announcements build on a previous announcement in July on collaboration between Tempest FCAS and F-X, with the Royal Air Force’s Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Mike Wigston saying at the time that it would have a “special focus on engine and propulsion systems”. The July announcement followed a meeting between British Defence Secretary Ben Wallace and Japanese Defense Minister Kishi Nobuo in Tokyo earlier that month, with both agreeing to accelerate discussions on jointly developing subsystems for both aircraft.


https://www.overtdefense.com/2021/12/22 ... r-in-2022/
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Corsair1963

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Unread post22 Dec 2021, 23:47

Maybe......
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pron

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Unread post27 Jan 2022, 23:32

Leonardo stake in Hensoldt could boost FCAS, Tempest commonalities they think in this article.

On Jan. 3 Leonardo concluded a deal to take a 25.1% stake in electronics firm Hensoldt.
While Leonardo is design authority on the new radars being built for Kuwaiti, Qatari and Royal Air Force Typhoons, Hensoldt has that role on the radars being supplied for upgrades to Spanish and German jets.
https://www.defensenews.com/global/euro ... onalities/

As long as France keeps up the 'its our way or the highway' attitude I don't think that FCAS and Tempest will ever merge.
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Jan 2022, 01:52

pron wrote:As long as France keeps up the 'its our way or the highway' attitude I don't think that FCAS and Tempest will ever merge.


I agree with you that France's attitude could put FCAS in jeopardy but what does France has to do with Tempest and how can France influence the success (or not) of the Tempest? :?
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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commisar

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Unread post22 Feb 2022, 22:19

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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Feb 2022, 01:17

commisar wrote:



Ah looks like an Anglo-Japanese jet is coming


No, I don't think so as Japan is not co-developing a fighter with the UK. (Tempest) This is more about developing technology for their own fighter program. Which, may even merge with one of the US 6th Generation Fighter Programs down the road.
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timmymagic

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Unread post15 May 2022, 15:26

Lockheed Martin on the way out as main partner...

BAE Systems in...

Looks like Tempest and FX are going to be very closely related....if not practically the same aircraft.

https://mobile.twitter.com/watcher_zero ... 4390572033

https://twitter.com/QE1045/status/15257 ... %2Fpage-17

Article from Sankei

The Ministry of Defense has begun to coordinate the successor to the F2 fighter of the Japan Air Self-Defense Force in the direction of a joint research and development project in Japan and the UK centered on BAE Systems, a major British aviation defense equipment company, and Mitsubishi Heavy Industries of Japan. Several government officials have revealed. A formal agreement will be reached by the end of the year based on the Japan-UK summit meeting on the 5th. The next fighter was being considered for support from Lockheed Martin of the United States, but it will be a de facto change of policy.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries and BAE Systems will participate in the aircraft, and IHI, a major shipbuilding heavy equipment company, and Rolls-Royce in the UK will cooperate in the engine. Some Italian companies and Lockheed may also participate. The British and Japanese defense authorities agreed in December last year to jointly research the engine development of the next fighter aircraft, and were exploring the possibility of joint development of major parts.

The next fighter was supported by Lockheed Martin, which co-developed the F2, and was seeking to be developed under the leadership of Mitsubishi Heavy Industries. However, it was difficult to coordinate with Lockheed Martin, and after gaining the understanding of the US government, it decided to switch the main axis to the United Kingdom. However, from the perspective of interoperability, we will continue to collaborate with the United States and jointly develop an unmanned aerial vehicle combat support system with the United States.

There was a cost problem because the retirement time of old-fashioned fighters did not overlap with that of the United States. In addition, the high degree of confidentiality, such as Lockheed's refurbishment of the aircraft in the continental United States, has become an issue in terms of technology sharing as a "black box."

The Ministry of Defense aims to start operation around Reiwa 2017, and has allocated a development cost of 85.8 billion yen in the budget for FY4. "Full-scale joint development with countries other than the United States is unprecedented and groundbreaking," said a senior ministry official.
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ricnunes

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Unread post15 May 2022, 15:46

I must say that I'm not surprised with this. Rumors that Japan could co-develop Tempest or join the program aren't new and the above is apparently one more step into that direction.
I believe this would be a great opportunity to both UK and Japan.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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timmymagic

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Unread post15 May 2022, 16:35

ricnunes wrote:I must say that I'm not surprised with this. Rumors that Japan could co-develop Tempest or join the program aren't new and the above is apparently one more step into that direction.
I believe this would be a great opportunity to both UK and Japan.


I suspect Sweden will go all in soon as well. Given the hike in their defence budget, lack of sales of Gripen E beyond Brazil (although Brazil are getting an extra batch, they got a very aggressive price from Sweden), they need a future platform and business...plus...they're just about to join NATO so all change. Their use case for the aircraft is likely to change and the threat has certainly risen...
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ricnunes

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Unread post15 May 2022, 21:01

timmymagic wrote:I suspect Sweden will go all in soon as well.


Well, Sweden is already in.
To be more precise, Saab already participates on the Tempest project.
This IMO makes it obvious that Sweden will eventually adquire the Tempest although they won't admit it just yet since they have the Gripen namely the Gripen E to sell. (more on Gripen E below)


timmymagic wrote:Given the hike in their defence budget, lack of sales of Gripen E beyond Brazil (although Brazil are getting an extra batch, they got a very aggressive price from Sweden), they need a future platform and business...plus...they're just about to join NATO so all change. Their use case for the aircraft is likely to change and the threat has certainly risen...


The problem with the Gripen E is that it probably won't sell beyond Brazil. The aircraft isn't that cheap and the "very aggressive price from Sweden" that Brazil got was due to Brazil being a Gripen E partner nation and I guess we are all aware that partner nations will always be able to get the aircraft that they develop or co-develop at considerable discounts.
This means that any other potential Gripen E export outside Brazil (and Sweden) will inevitably be more expensive. On top of this Gripen E is not that cheap to start with namely when compared to other 4.5th gen fighter aircraft. For example it's more expensive than a F-16V and is probably even more expensive or costs just as much as the Super Hornet while costing less than the Rafale and Typhoon but at the same time being somehow less capable than the other 4.5th gen fighter aircraft. And then there's of course the much more capable and yet still cheaper and 5th gen F-35.
This means that any country that can get US or western fighter aircraft but cannot get the F-35 will probably get other aircraft western 4.5 fighter that isn't the Gripen E. And countries that for example cannot get US or British aircraft won't be able to get the Gripen E either since most of it is packed with US or British components. For instance one third (1/3) of the Gripen E is British and for that reason its sale was "vetoed" to Argentina when the same Argentina shown interest in the Gripen E.

Anyway and getting back to Sweden and Tempest, I think that Sweden is "doomed" (note the quotes) to stick with the Tempest. Either this or it will eventually buy the F-35.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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timmymagic

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Unread post16 May 2022, 08:09

ricnunes wrote:
timmymagic wrote:I suspect Sweden will go all in soon as well.


Well, Sweden is already in.
To be more precise, Saab already participates on the Tempest project.


They're not.

Sweden is not a Tempest partner. They're in the wider FCAS consortium, Thats the UK's FCAS...not the Franco-German SCAF/FCAS (which was named after the UK's programme).
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timmymagic

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Unread post16 May 2022, 08:15

ricnunes wrote:The problem with the Gripen E is that it probably won't sell beyond Brazil. The aircraft isn't that cheap and the "very aggressive price from Sweden" that Brazil got was due to Brazil being a Gripen E partner nation and I guess we are all aware that partner nations will always be able to get the aircraft that they develop or co-develop at considerable discounts.
This means that any other potential Gripen E export outside Brazil (and Sweden) will inevitably be more expensive. On top of this Gripen E is not that cheap to start with namely when compared to other 4.5th gen fighter aircraft. For example it's more expensive than a F-16V and is probably even more expensive or costs just as much as the Super Hornet while costing less than the Rafale and Typhoon but at the same time being somehow less capable than the other 4.5th gen fighter aircraft. And then there's of course the much more capable and yet still cheaper and 5th gen F-35.
This means that any country that can get US or western fighter aircraft but cannot get the F-35 will probably get other aircraft western 4.5 fighter that isn't the Gripen E. And countries that for example cannot get US or British aircraft won't be able to get the Gripen E either since most of it is packed with US or British components. For instance one third (1/3) of the Gripen E is British and for that reason its sale was "vetoed" to Argentina when the same Argentina shown interest in the Gripen E.


The reason why te Brazilian's got such a good price, full offsets, local production etc. was because they had Sweden and Saab over a barrel. The Swedish Parliament would not authorise development of Gripen NG as it was called then unless they had a guaranteed export partner onboard. Essentially they had to get someone onboard regardless of cost. Argentina was never a real prospect...they can't even get the funds for JF-17, let alone Gripen E.

I like the Gripen, I really do, but it's a small very limited aircraft. In its Gripen A/C guise it made some sense, but with the climbing price tag its found itself in a bracket of aircraft that it cannot compete with due to its size and the capabilities derived from that.
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ricnunes

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Unread post16 May 2022, 11:28

timmymagic wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
timmymagic wrote:I suspect Sweden will go all in soon as well.


Well, Sweden is already in.
To be more precise, Saab already participates on the Tempest project.


They're not.

Sweden is not a Tempest partner. They're in the wider FCAS consortium, Thats the UK's FCAS...not the Franco-German SCAF/FCAS (which was named after the UK's programme).


Here:
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... of-tempest
Italian Defence Minister Lorenzo Guerini, UK Secretary of State for Defence Ben Wallace, and Swedish Defence Minister Peter Hultqvist signed a trilateral memorandum of understanding (MoU) on 21 December on the development of the Tempest future fighter, the Italian Ministry of Defence (MoD) announced in a press release on 3 January.


If this is not "being in" then I don't know what would be "being in"...


timmymagic wrote:The reason why te Brazilian's got such a good price, full offsets, local production etc. was because they had Sweden and Saab over a barrel. The Swedish Parliament would not authorise development of Gripen NG as it was called then unless they had a guaranteed export partner onboard. Essentially they had to get someone onboard regardless of cost. Argentina was never a real prospect...they can't even get the funds for JF-17, let alone Gripen E.


Yes that too, I agree.
However it's no secret that partner nations will always get a discount compared to a "normal export". It would be odd if the Gripen E was the sole exception to this rule!

Nonetheless it was still costly for Brazil. Basically $130 million per aircraft. Yes, it included the training of a few pilots, some ground crew and a few spare parts. Still very expensive thou, considering the limited capability of the aircraft and all the "pressures" that managed to bring down the Brazilian Gripen E pricetag.


timmymagic wrote:I like the Gripen, I really do, but it's a small very limited aircraft. In its Gripen A/C guise it made some sense, but with the climbing price tag its found itself in a bracket of aircraft that it cannot compete with due to its size and the capabilities derived from that.


That's basically what I said in my previous post however with different words. So, we are in agreement here, I guess...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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