Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 06:12

nutshell wrote:Say Egyptians want something that could last at least a couple of minutes before getting jammed back to year 1918, what should they do?

Russia can't give them anything that can prevent those pesky Adir to draw penises around their su35s.
Otoh is possible to get into the People's Joint Discount Fighter program and get one of those proper 5th gen fighter from China.

We all know what the Egyptians would do and so EVERY FORMER russian customers.

P.s
Unless it's a Turkey like scenario, just out of pure politics, you won't have a western country buying Chinese.


Yes, a number of nations will need a Stealth Fighter to at least be a little competitive vs Western Stealth Fighters. Plus, something they can afford........

This could be a good market for the forthcoming J-31/J-35. Assuming China can get it to the market by at least 2030...
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milosh

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 07:43

Corsair1963 wrote:
milosh wrote:Don't spin, you wrote China will take Russian market I wrote why it wouldn't. Nothing else. I didn't wrote it is forever Russian market. Nope. In fact I mentioned Korea as alternative.

China can endanger western market in SA and ME but you don't even write about that at all :?


I don't see China being too much of a threat to traditional customers of Western Fighters. Yet, like I said they're a big threat to Russia. As it doesn't have anything really to offer in the next 20 years except the Su-57. Which, no one seems interested in....


Honestly, can't make it any clearer than that......


It isnt China which will sell fighters to India, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia but someone else if LTS fails. It is half of countries bought Su30 and if you look numbers of planes it is most of Su30 market, that is why I wrote China will not tale russian market with J31 in 2030 becuase mlst5of msrket is anti chinese because of teritorial problems they have with China.

Btw China is trying to sell fighters to Argentina and as Chinese influence rise other SA countries would fallow becuase China is buying ores and food from them and will buy more and more. Same as what is happening in ME. US pressure UAE to stop building PLAAN intel post.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 08:44

milosh wrote:
It isnt China which will sell fighters to India, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia but someone else if LTS fails. It is half of countries bought Su30 and if you look numbers of planes it is most of Su30 market, that is why I wrote China will not tale russian market with J31 in 2030 becuase mlst5of msrket is anti chinese because of teritorial problems they have with China.

Btw China is trying to sell fighters to Argentina and as Chinese influence rise other SA countries would fallow becuase China is buying ores and food from them and will buy more and more. Same as what is happening in ME. US pressure UAE to stop building PLAAN intel post.


Countries like India, Indonesia, Malaysia, or Vietnam could buy the KF-21 or maybe even the F-35. That is not what I am talking about....


I am talking about countries that can't buy Western Fighters for a number of reasons. Including but not limited to Algeria, Angola, Armenia, Belarus, Cuba, Eritrea, Iran, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Libya, Myanmar, North Korea, Peru, Slovakia, Syria, Turkmenistan, Uganda, Venezuela, etc. etc. etc.


The aforementioned have all purchased Soviet/Russian Fighters. (Mig-29's, Su-27's, Su-31's, etc.) These will all have to be replaced at some point. With most not having the Western Fighter Option!

So, who offers a 5th Generation Stealth Fighters that they could purchase???
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milosh

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 09:02

Well we didn't understood. You are talking about whole market which have ex soviet fighters and isn't in Nato. I was talking only about modern russian market were they sold fighters after breakup of ussr.

Biggest order came from countries which have problems with China so on that market they can't enter. On old soviet one they can. But Russia didn't sell lot of fighters there so it isn't big deal for them. In fact Indian AMCA is lot bigger problem for Russia then J31. Becuase AMCA if succeed why would India buy fighters?
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Corsair1963

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 09:21

milosh wrote:Well we didn't understood. You are talking about whole market which have ex soviet fighters and isn't in Nato. I was talking only about modern russian market were they sold fighters after breakup of ussr.

Biggest order came from countries which have problems with China so on that market they can't enter. On old soviet one they can. But Russia didn't sell lot of fighters there so it isn't big deal for them. In fact Indian AMCA is lot bigger problem for Russia then J31. Becuase AMCA if succeed it would cut russian fighter export to India.


What? Hardly, matters if Cuba operates Soviet Mig-29's or Algeria operates Russian Su-30's. They both will have to be replaced.....

This brings us right back to the same question! What will the majority of the former Soviet Union/Russian customers purchase in a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter over the next 10-20 years? Sure won't be the Su-57 in the vast majority of the cases and maybe at all.....

As for the AMCA it's a good 20 years off. Assuming it "ever" enters service??? (questionable) So, don't see how that plays into this equation???

Honestly, you just don't want to admit it. That Russia doesn't really have anything to offer. While, China is the mostly likely alternative......
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milosh

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 12:10

Are you right that some countries which have ex soviet or new russian fighters could buy chinese fighters in 2030s? Yes you are right. But how many fighters Russia sell to them until 2021? Not many.

So it isn't like some doom from Russia.

Is now clearer what I want to wrote? English isn't my prime language so maybe I am confusing.

ACMA is lot bigger problem. Yes it would take a while until it is done but if you look KFX it isn't unrealistic AMCA take less time then we expect.

But because of ACMA no matter how much it will take India will not be keen to buy stealth. Especially expensive ones like F35 or Su57. Cheaper one like J31 they cant buy either.

Which is one more reason for Russia to get together and invest heavily in LTS even if that mean cutting SU57 orders. Btw this is what Xandar wrote and I was stubborn thinking if Russia will go with single engine stealth it can only be something like F35 nothing less so because they don't have F135 it will not happen.
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madrat

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Unread post09 Dec 2021, 13:17

Countries like Algeria have demonstrated that what capabilities we suspected about MiG-25 were true, that it wasn't solely limited to purely an interception role. But Russia wasn't the source of many of their upgrades and they took an aggressive role to secure replacement parts when MiG proved inept. Algeria used them more like an F-15A would be used, to aggressively secure airspace. If there is a will there is a way.
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milosh

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Unread post11 Dec 2021, 11:17

It look like only now MiG will be forced to focus on MiG31, LTS would kill MiG35 and probable any big MiG29 upgrade plans, so what else MiG could do? Focus on MiG31, they already getting new upgrade deal and if they are smart they will try to pull as much as possible from that. Instead dreaming of MiG41 they need to make MiG31BM2 as best as possible.
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charlielima223

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Unread post11 Dec 2021, 15:09

milosh wrote:It look like only now MiG will be forced to focus on MiG31, LTS would kill MiG35 and probable any big MiG29 upgrade plans, so what else MiG could do? Focus on MiG31, they already getting new upgrade deal and if they are smart they will try to pull as much as possible from that. Instead dreaming of MiG41 they need to make MiG31BM2 as best as possible.


Yeah because that is all Mikoyan can do for the Russian Airforce at this point unless they want to spend additional money to upgrade their existing fleet of Mig-29s which appears to be very unlikely at this point in time.

Russia's new stealth fighter is well behind its major competitors (US and China). If and/or when Russian Aerospace finally puts out an actual product, the market out there will already be saturated by F-35s or already start to be cornered by what ever export Chinese fighter may come out. Russia needs to find a buyer and or partner now or else it might become a very small specialized token force in their inventory like the Su-57 is looking to be now.
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milosh

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Unread post11 Dec 2021, 19:03

Russia need to get together and invest in LTS. It is much better export option then Flankers but more important it is needed for their AF.

To make things more interesting if new engine for Su57 is dealyed again LTS could be ready before fully stealthy Su57 if Russia invest in LTS.
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mixelflick

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Unread post11 Dec 2021, 19:42

milosh wrote:Russia need to get together and invest in LTS. It is much better export option then Flankers but more important it is needed for their AF.

To make things more interesting if new engine for Su57 is dealyed again LTS could be ready before fully stealthy Su57 if Russia invest in LTS.


You may have something here...

It's a long shot but quite possibly there's someone in Russia who was tasked with coming up with a plan of what to do IF the SU-57 hits even further delays. And the SU-75 may have been it, especially given all the proclamations of how much tech and structural items are shared between the two.

OTOH Russia can live without the Checkmate, but it will be a bitter pill to swallow. A hodge podge of up-rated yet aging Flankers, and a silver bullet force of SU-57's is not going to fare well in any conflict with NATO.
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madrat

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Unread post12 Dec 2021, 02:50

milosh wrote:It look like only now MiG will be forced to focus on MiG31, LTS would kill MiG35 and probable any big MiG29 upgrade plans, so what else MiG could do? Focus on MiG31, they already getting new upgrade deal and if they are smart they will try to pull as much as possible from that. Instead dreaming of MiG41 they need to make MiG31BM2 as best as possible.


You are not wrong about death of MiG-35, and presumably the future of MiG-29K. MiG-31 was built in large enough numbers and with enough untapped potential, tweaking what is alteady there would be interesting. Su-24 could probably be killed off faster if MiG-31 is capable of smart glide-bombs, standoff ASMs, and hypersonics. The Su-24 mission has been dead since the Cold War.
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Dec 2021, 16:16

The mission perhaps, but they sure rely of SU-24's a lot more than one would expect. For all the hype re: the SU-34 and secondary SU-30/35 strike capability, it sure shows up a lot in Syria and other places. 150 or so still in Russian service, according to several internet sources. This compares to 128 or so SU-34's as of today, so they're approaching 1:1 replacement (although I dunno if that's the plan or they're supposed to complement them).

1,400 were built in total, with many exported. Interesting in that you don't hear much about it, yet it appears to have been a resounding success for Sukhoi. Not to the extent of the Flanker series, but certainly a very solid production run with a long service life.
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milosh

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Unread post13 Dec 2021, 09:06

I read Flankers aren't nice to fly at low altitude compared to Su24. So for low level fast attacks Su24 is preferred even though it is lot older.

And because Russia still lack decent target pod it isn't strange they use Su24. In Syria biggest problem was lack of avionics gps which lead to downing of Su24 by Turks. Russian Su24 crews would use handheld Garmin!

Only after that debacle big push for modernisation started. Even though upgrade package was available for while from 1999 or 2000!
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madrat

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Unread post13 Dec 2021, 13:41

Low level attacks against even Russian SAM technology is suicide. The Su-24 mission died off a long time ago. The higher and faster aircraft stand much better chance of survival, especially with support from an intelligent, coordinated suppression of defenses. Russia is still fighting battles from 1975 when they have access to comparable Western technology from 2005. It makes no sense unless all of your bullying is directed against even worse off opponents.

And we are supposed to expect any new stealth fighter to close that operational gap. Very tell tale there is no intention to accomplish that.
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