Russia is,developing a light weight stealth fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 04:04

mixelflick wrote:They are surely at a turning point, and sound entirely dependent upon foreign interest/venture capital per se. Hindsight is 20/20, but IMO had they procured this first, it may already be in service somewhere. The SU-57? I think they'll eventually fund 76, but sell none abroad. They're in a really bad spot, which puts India and their other allies... in a bad spot.

We of course procured the F-22 first, but followed that up with the F-35. Hundreds and soon thousands rolling off production lines and strengthening western air arms by the day. The rest of the world? If Checkmate doesn't come soon, the J-31 (another big maybe) will be their only option. The KF-X or whatever, doubt that'll see any widespread interest/foreign sales.

I honestly think the rest of the world is going to be flying 4th gen jets for a very, very long time. So if I'm them, I'm focusing on getting the most capable AESA's and long range missiles (Meteor, PL-12 or 15 etc) I can get my hands on...



Russia made a colossal mistake when they developed the PAK-FA (Su-57) over the smaller and cheaper LMFS!


....and China says "Thank You" :wink:
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charlielima223

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 09:25

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:We also didn't upgrade the Eagles with a lot of the newer tech to save funding/status for the F-22. Russia pumped tons of money into tech demonstrators and Flanker upgrades.


Through the lates 90s and early 2000s the USAF thought they would get an adequate force of F-22s to replace the venerable Eagle. By the time the F-22 production was finally capped well short of what was desired (277 - 339) and there was no possible way short of divine intervention to increase the numbers again, the F-35 was already in development.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 09:57

charlielima223 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:We also didn't upgrade the Eagles with a lot of the newer tech to save funding/status for the F-22. Russia pumped tons of money into tech demonstrators and Flanker upgrades.


Through the lates 90s and early 2000s the USAF thought they would get an adequate force of F-22s to replace the venerable Eagle. By the time the F-22 production was finally capped well short of what was desired (277 - 339) and there was no possible way short of divine intervention to increase the numbers again, the F-35 was already in development.


The truth is the F-35 is more than adequate to maintain US Air Superiority until the NGAD comes online. While, being far more versatile and cheaper than the F-22....
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tphuang

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 14:19

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:We of course procured the F-22 first....

We also didn't upgrade the Eagles with a lot of the newer tech to save funding/status for the F-22. Russia pumped tons of money into tech demonstrators and Flanker upgrades.


That was a necessity. They had no money for anything in the late 90s to early 2000s. So Sukhoi had to pump out demonstrator and flanker upgrades to attract foreign sales to keep themselves going. It was only after 2005, that Russia had enough money to really start its own 5th generation project. As we see now, they don't really have enough money or domestic industries to really complete it in a timely manner.

Long term, Russia is likely to keep exporting su-35s. There will still be plenty of nations that don't need stealthy aircraft.

For me, it doesn't make sense for them to have both Sukhoi and Mikoyan right now when they can only fund 1 next generation project. They shouldn't try to have a second project that takes away funding from the first one. Unless its entirely foreign funded, this makes no sense. Less annual development budget for Sukhoi simply leads to slower development cycle and eventually lead to more cost overrun and smaller production run -> higher unit cost. It's a disastrous strategy to have such indecision.

They are not China. They don't have money to build several demonstrators and have 2 real 5th generation project.
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milosh

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Unread post25 Nov 2021, 23:25

@tphaung

LTS is design to use as much as possible from SU57. It is like F35A share wings, vstabs,weapon bay, cockpit and some sensors with F22, but it use F15/16 engine.

That is what SU75 would be as UAC Rostec see it. Not some Russian like F35. That would be better engine or at least same as planned SU57 engine, better sensors and better RAM then SU57.
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madrat

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Unread post26 Nov 2021, 15:01

I don't understand the chorus bagging on the latest modernization in Russia. It had to change because Europe isn't their main threat, ot is China. Their eastern borders are quickly turning Sino-red and they are being undermined across an economic spectrum that is a huge threat to their future. Last time the Chinese got this aggressive there they had a real bloody skirmish that few people seem to even know happened. So Russia has no choice but to modernize at a greater efficiency than in the past.

Su-75 is a good analogy to an F-16 program. Russia has no F-35 program nor can they afford one. But they know quite a lot about stealth shaping and can match China in everything but numbers. So they are pushing quality over quantity now. Su-57 only has to match J-20 because the Su-75 will still outclass most everything else China has built. The real worry for the Kremlin isn't airframes, it is missile technology. Russia is lagging behind China there.
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milosh

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 10:00

They don't see China as problem because even though far east is big it isnt that rich so Chinese wouldn't gain much taking it but would have one more super power against them, US RF military alliance is something PRC couldn't handle even in future when PRC will be military behemoth.
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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 10:48

Corsair1963 wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
The truth is the F-35 is more than adequate to maintain US Air Superiority until the NGAD comes online. While, being far more versatile and cheaper than the F-22....


Yes the F-35 is adequate to maintain air superiority for the US and its Allies but lets stop fooling ourselves. The F-35 isn't designed to be an air superiority/dominance fighter like the F-22. The F-35 needs numbers on its sides (which it is so far shaping out to have).

Russia's latest foray into 5th gen fighters is (perhaps) their last attempt to stay in the premier fighter jet market. Russia needed India as a financial partner for their PAKFA ambitions to succeed. We all knew that when India dropped out of it, Russia would have to go it alone and they didn't have the economical power to do so. Now they're trying with a less ambitious fighter with experience learned from the PAKFA in hopes someone will take interest and help fund their project. I believe that for the sake of national vanity/pride that even if no one take interest in it, Russia will still go ahead with it and procure this aircraft for their own forces.
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charlielima223

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 10:54

madrat wrote:I don't understand the chorus bagging on the latest modernization in Russia. It had to change because Europe isn't their main threat, ot is China. Their eastern borders are quickly turning Sino-red and they are being undermined across an economic spectrum that is a huge threat to their future. Last time the Chinese got this aggressive there they had a real bloody skirmish that few people seem to even know happened. So Russia has no choice but to modernize at a greater efficiency than in the past.

Su-75 is a good analogy to an F-16 program. Russia has no F-35 program nor can they afford one. But they know quite a lot about stealth shaping and can match China in everything but numbers. So they are pushing quality over quantity now. Su-57 only has to match J-20 because the Su-75 will still outclass most everything else China has built. The real worry for the Kremlin isn't airframes, it is missile technology. Russia is lagging behind China there.


Russia will always see NATO as a threat/opponent so they will do what ever they can to flex their muscle towards NATO. China has been on the rise no doubt about that and how quickly they have progressed is indeed astonishing. Look at pictures of Beijing in the late 90's compared to now. IMHO the one thing Chinese tech and industry hasn't displayed that Russia and most of the West has is innovation. China's military tech and development is an amalgamation of stolen and copied designs. Why take the economic hit to try and innovate down a path that could possibly need to a dead end when you can copy and steal what works and integrate it into what is yours? There is a reason why China is still considered the bootleg capital of the world.
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milosh

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 12:56

charlielima223 wrote:
Russia's latest foray into 5th gen fighters is (perhaps) their last attempt to stay in the premier fighter jet market. Russia needed India as a financial partner for their PAKFA ambitions to succeed. We all knew that when India dropped out of it, Russia would have to go it alone and they didn't have the economical power to do so. Now they're trying with a less ambitious fighter with experience learned from the PAKFA in hopes someone will take interest and help fund their project. I believe that for the sake of national vanity/pride that even if no one take interest in it, Russia will still go ahead with it and procure this aircraft for their own forces.


It isn't pride in case of LTS but logical move. MiG29 replacement would be MiG35 but lagged so much that this ad hoc Sukhoi project became fierce competitor even if they go with el cheapo version it is still ahead MiG35 in price,cpfh and calabilites. It look more like how F16 need to be in XXI century then F35ski.
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mixelflick

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 15:43

The Mig-35... Russia bought a whole 6, I think. And it looks like nobody else wants it so... I dont' know how much time/$ they wasted on that thing, but I bet they wish they had at least some of it back. Or alternatively, had started the SU-75 idea earlier.

But hey, hindsight is 20/20. The issue being that in the past, they could afford such mistakes and keep plowing ahead. The Mig-23 and 25 eventually gave way to the Mig-29, SU-27 and Mig-31. All exceptional airframes, all much better than their predecessors. Yet now long in the tooth, and let down somewhere either by their engines, avionics, weapons or a very narrow mission set. No fighter is perfect, but no fighter period is a distinct possibility, especially if the SU-75 suffers the same fate as the Mig-35 (or even SU-57).

The Russians will figure something out, but its increasingly clear that something might not be even a quasi-stealth aircraft to sell to foreign buyers. Take heart though Russia, the Canadians still haven't announced the winner of their fighter competition..
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milosh

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Unread post27 Nov 2021, 19:01

MiG totally failed with 35 and that lead to practically cancellation of MiG as independent company. Sukhoi is also part of UAC bit lot more independent.

So only real option for RuAF MiG29 replacment is LTS.
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mixelflick

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Unread post28 Nov 2021, 17:40

milosh wrote:MiG totally failed with 35 and that lead to practically cancellation of MiG as independent company. Sukhoi is also part of UAC bit lot more independent.

So only real option for RuAF MiG29 replacment is LTS.


It's a sad end for Mig to be honest, tough to watch. They produced some of the most interesting/capable designs of the cold war. Look at the Mig-25... took out an F/A-18C in Desert Storm. Yes, Speicher had malfunctioning ECM and his flight leader was called off when he detected the Mig but... a kill is a kill. May he RIP.

The larger issue is poor performance by the entire Mig series over decades of air battles vs. western jets. Mig-21's, 23's, 25's and 29's all fell to Eagles in Desert Storm (and more Mig-29's in Serbia). Ditto for Israel, who has even more kills over the years vs. the Mig series. Iraqi Mig-21's were felled by legacy Hornets, which did so without pickling their 2,000lb bombs which they used to strike targets afterwards. Iraqi Mig-25's were downed by Iranian Tomcats and even an F-4E and F-5E. Foxbats did apparently hold their own in one engagement with F-15C's in Desert Storm though, so coupled with good tactics (believe that was a pincer like ambush) they can be competitive.

If I recall correctly, Mig had some models on the table at MAKS this year. While I could say the same thing, I'm hopeful something will develop and Mig will again be a respected fighter aircraft manufacturer. Yes, they're all part of UAC but it's clear the design teams retain some sort of competitive spirit. The next 10 years will tell the tale of whether Mig survives, even as a token, skeleton design team. Perhaps even less...
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