Su-35. How the hell it did that?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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charlielima223

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Unread post19 Nov 2019, 18:22

disconnectedradical wrote:We should clarify to make sure we’re using same units. A short ton is only 2,000 lb while a metric ton that Russia uses is 1,000 kg or 2,205 lbs, so F-22 is actually about 19.7 metric tons.


I was using short tons...
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XanderCrews

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Unread post20 Nov 2019, 21:24

Flankers have always been amazing at winning airshows.
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Patriot

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Unread post21 Nov 2019, 06:19

XanderCrews wrote:Flankers have always been amazing at winning airshows.

Considering it has a wingspan of the F-16's length (actually more than that), length of F-111 or a business jet, inertia of an infantry armoured vehicle or medium tank and can change directions like a paper airplane model or a fly bouncing underneath a lamp - yes.

Although I always loved :inlove: F-16's energy conservation, acceleration, sustained turn rate and continuous 9g capabilities :P
...and the smart sexy fragile aggressive look it has 8)
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mixelflick

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Unread post23 Nov 2019, 16:42

I think you really have to hand it to the Russians insofar as internal fuel goes, regardless of Flanker model. They carry a LOT of gas, and need only burn off a portion to get the kind of "supermaneuverability" seen in their flying displays. Tactical usefulness aside, it must be nice flying a sortie without checking your gas gauge every few minutes. Or being dependent on tankers all the time.
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zero-one

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 14:37

Okay I know this is most probably wrong. Sadly I'm not as knowledgeable as some of our resident engineers out here to explain why its wrong. But if it's actually right, I'll genuinely be surprised

Bad news for AIM-120D - physics says Su-35 can out-turn the AIM-120D.

Mathematics here is a bit tricky, but works like this: missile must follow track of turning aircraft, and G force in a turn is square of true speed. After firing from Mach 1.5, slow to Mach 0.95 and descent to 12,000 metres – this about 900 kph and good turning speed for Sukhoi.

AIM-120D rocket second pulse burning push speed up to about Mach 3.5. Ratio 3.5 / 0.95 = 3.7 which squared is 13.5. So AIM-120D must pull 13.5 times G bigger than Sukhoi. Some say biggest possible G of AIM-120D is 30, so divide by 13.5 and get Sukhoi to pull only 2.2 G to outturn AIM-120D.

Say AIM-120D lights seeker at 20 km, missile closing at 3,700 kph. So, takes 20 seconds to reach Sukhoi. Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) tells direction of incoming missile, so Sukhoi turns to put missile in rear quarter and starts high-G, jinking barrel roll more than 2 G. More likely closer to 5G. Sukhoi has thrust vector jets (TVC nozzles), so turning at 5 G for 20 seconds no problem. Missile cannot track barrel roll, so fly past and loses lock.

Sukhoi's flight controls computers also have software written into them to specifically avoid the AIM-120D missile. Arm system, and when OLS-35 or RWR see incoming missile, audio horn sound and will Sukhoi fly itself on missile avoiding path.

Fly all air dominance missions with KEDR towed decoy, so if AIM-120D has lucky crossing, it may fly after the decoy instead. Also have new wingtip pods for radio electronic combat (Electronic Warfare) which twist phase of radar wave around (Crosseye jammer for phase front deception) so the AIM-120D's single pulse (моноимпульсная антенна – monopulse antenna in AIM-120D) tracker confused .
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mixelflick

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 14:51

Would not want to be in the SU-35 trying to pull this off...

The notion that a fighter aircraft can pull more g's than a missile (especially an AIM-120D) seems... peculiar. Even after its fuel has long burned out, that AIM-120D is going to be able to crank itself around a lot more aggressively than an SU-35, SU-57 or SU-whathaveyou.

This looks like it was taken from MilitaryWatchMag, or like Kremlin mouthpiece..
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zhangmdev

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 15:08

Missiles do not "follow track of turning aircraft". They anticipate the trajectory of the target and try to meet it at some point.
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milosh

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 16:44

mixelflick wrote:Would not want to be in the SU-35 trying to pull this off...

The notion that a fighter aircraft can pull more g's than a missile (especially an AIM-120D) seems... peculiar. Even after its fuel has long burned out, that AIM-120D is going to be able to crank itself around a lot more aggressively than an SU-35, SU-57 or SU-whathaveyou.

This looks like it was taken from MilitaryWatchMag, or like Kremlin mouthpiece..


We have pilot which evade couple AIM-120C (three or four) in half working MiG-29 so it is possible. Su-35 pilot have much better SA so it can use agility of plane to maximum.

Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27.
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charlielima223

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 18:22

milosh wrote:
We have pilot which evade couple AIM-120C (three or four) in half working MiG-29 so it is possible.


Yeah in the world of DCS where Russian missiles have a 80% kill ratio while modern US missiles will miss almost 75% in the most insanes ways...

milosh wrote:Su-35 pilot have much better SA so it can use agility of plane to maximum.


No doubt an Su-35 has better SA over earlier variants of the Flanker but against more modern AESA radars and missiles, doing acrobatics in an attempt to evade a missile wont give you cool points and really awesome stories to tell at the bar when you're a burning smattering of hear teeth and eye balls falling towards the Earth.
I remember reading how Indian Su-30s used a tactics using a manuevering pattern that could spoof radar guided missiles. Turns out it worked well against older pulse doppler MSA radars, AIM-7s, and early AIM-120 variants. Then they tried that manuever against more modern radars and missiles, then they stopped doing it all together.
Not saying its impossible but now its getting increasingly difficult. Against a proper 5th gen fighter (F-22 and F-35) where they can launch a salvo at you far before you can even detect them and not know you've been engaged until your RWR starts blaring and you have maybe 6 or 10 seconds to react... it gets even more difficult. First look, first shot, first kill...

milosh wrote:Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27.


It isnt much heavier than an Su-27 but it is still just as draggy. Nothing like using thrust and power as a way to show the middle finger to aerodynamics.
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milosh

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 19:33

charlielima223 wrote:
milosh wrote:
We have pilot which evade couple AIM-120C (three or four) in half working MiG-29 so it is possible.


Yeah in the world of DCS where Russian missiles have a 80% kill ratio while modern US missiles will miss almost 75% in the most insanes ways...


:roll:

LtCol Ljubiša Kulačin Kulacin, he gave very precise report about engagement he had, two AIM-120 he evaded using visual tracking, our SPO-15 at least from what we know didn't had ability to detect AIM-120 seeker, then he got RWR warring about AIM-7 but he was already low so he use ground clutter. He landed safely.

Also you have Mayor Nebojsa Nikolic which reported he evaded two missiles but in his case we don't know which and also we don't know did his SPO-15 was working if it did then it was AIM-120 because he never stated anything about RWR warning.

All those pilots fly on half operational MiGs, and have very low flying hours per year in 1990s (because of sanctions).

And then you read fairy tales how one AIM-120 would down best Russian/Chinese fighter even stealthy one flying with pilots which fly far more per year?
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marauder2048

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 20:57

milosh wrote:LtCol Ljubiša Kulačin Kulacin, he gave very precise report about engagement he had, two AIM-120 he evaded using visual tracking,


This was a night engagement right?
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mixelflick

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 21:19

milosh wrote:

"Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27"

The Russians imagine a lot of things: Raptor like engines, supercarriers, combat capable stealth aircraft etc.

OTOH, we actually have Raptor engines (and the follow on to that, the F-135). We've built and fielded a super-carrier (actually, about a dozen). And we have not 1, but 3 combat capable stealth aircraft (B-2, F-22, F-35). In fact, we've retired more combat capable stealth aircraft than Russia has fielded (F-117).

Imaginary engines, weapons etc don't count for much in a real war. Unless of course, you're playing a computer game like DCS. And quite honestly, that's what it sounds like you're doing when you bring examples like this up...
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basher54321

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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 21:22

zero-one wrote:Okay I know this is most probably wrong.


Yes ignore that - actually zhangmdevs reply is useful - missiles don't need to even attempt to out turn aircraft in the most part - they certainly dont try to BFM a Jet or get in its turning circle LOL. A missile can hit an aircraft at any angle - very difficult to visualise in the 3D plane what is happening it is entirely down to how the missile is programmed to fly towards the target.
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Unread post28 Apr 2020, 21:30

marauder2048 wrote:
milosh wrote:LtCol Ljubiša Kulačin Kulacin, he gave very precise report about engagement he had, two AIM-120 he evaded using visual tracking,


This was a night engagement right?




If this was the 24th then around 22:00 at night - Shower did miss with 2 AMRAAM. However the chances of anyone seeing a smokeless high mach object with mk1 eyes even in clear daylight out of trails must be near zero - which also would never move on the horizon if coming at you.

As brave as those guys were any missile evasion they did probably didn't happen that way.
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wrightwing

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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 01:50

basher54321 wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:
milosh wrote:LtCol Ljubiša Kulačin Kulacin, he gave very precise report about engagement he had, two AIM-120 he evaded using visual tracking,


This was a night engagement right?




If this was the 24th then around 22:00 at night - Shower did miss with 2 AMRAAM. However the chances of anyone seeing a smokeless high mach object with mk1 eyes even in clear daylight out of trails must be near zero - which also would never move on the horizon if coming at you.

As brave as those guys were any missile evasion they did probably didn't happen that way.

Even in daylight, the likelihood of seeing an AMRAAM post burn out, is somewhere around 0%. If you're lucky, you'll have ~10 seconds warning, during which you'll be frantically manuevering.
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