Spain joins France, Germany on new combat fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 02:58

Spain will join a Franco-German project to build a new fighter plane to replace the Eurofighter and Rafale, the defence ministry said Monday.

Defence Minister Margarita Robles will sign a letter of intent with her French and German counterparts on Thursday on the margins of a NATO meeting in Brussels, a spokesperson said.

The project launched in July 2017 is known as the Future Combat Air System (FCAS), which in addition to a new combat aircraft also plans to include drones and cruise missiles.

The new fighter jet will replace the Eurofighter which is assembled in Germany, Britain, Spain and Italy, and the French Rafale around 2040.

It will compete with the US F-35 or its successor.

A first contract worth 65 million euros was awarded to Airbus and Dassault Aviation in February to develop the design of the combat system.

Spain, where Airbus's military transport planes are assembled, had sent a letter in December to Paris and Berlin asking to be associated with the project.

The FCAS has a rival -- Britain's Tempest project which has been awarded to BAE Systems, and which Italy and the Netherlands have also joined.

In a December statement, Spain's defence ministry said it was "convinced that the two programmes would end up merging, given the huge investment needed in their development."


https://www.france24.com/en/20190211-sp ... DVzj7USIsw
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 03:01

This will increase the pressure on the UK to find more partners for it's Tempest Fighter Project. With recent reports suggesting that India was offered a place in the program???
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marsavian

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 03:20

Sweden is very interested in Tempest.
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madrat

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 03:35

Turkey will try to join in order sow division.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 03:40

marsavian wrote:Sweden is very interested in Tempest.


Yes, I've heard that SAAB will join the program. Yet, the UK will need a number of partners or a couple large ones?
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marsavian

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 03:55

It's what they bring in terms of expertise rather than quantity. The UK will take care of the engines and possibly airframe, the Italians sensors/weapons and the Swedes the electronics or variations like that. Basically each country brings what they are good at and they all share the cost and production. Looks to me Tempest and NGF/SCAF will have 3-4 big partners each which will be enough to make them viable and I also heard Japan was taking an interest in Tempest too. The bar is low here, build something modern and above all indigenous with at least F-117 level stealth and you are good to go against J-20/Su-57.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 04:25

marsavian wrote:It's what they bring in terms of expertise rather than quantity. The UK will take care of the engines and possibly airframe, the Italians sensors/weapons and the Swedes the electronics or variations like that. Basically each country brings what they are good at and they all share the cost and production. Looks to me Tempest and NGF/SCAF will have 3-4 big partners each which will be enough to make them viable and I also heard Japan was taking an interest in Tempest too. The bar is low here, build something modern and above all indigenous with at least F-117 level stealth and you are good to go against J-20/Su-57.



Don't forget the two US 6th Generation Fighter Programs. They to will be looking for partners. With my guess with Australia, Japan, and South Korea being good options. I wouldn't even rule out India. As it will need a partner too. If, it ever hopes to have a 6th Generation Fighter.
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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 11:55

This is great news for European defence industry. Hopefully we get a Eurofighter mk2 in time.
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 14:16

I just don't see this happening...

Yes, it's happened in years past: Tornado, Eurofighter. But the costs involved in achieving something comparable to the F-35 are going to be ginormous. And even then, what have you succeeded in doing? Building a European F-35?

They're going to be flying the F-35 already, and it's doubtful British engine tech is going to develop motors comparable to an ADVENT or ACE or whatever comes after the F-135 (out of America). Now if you're planning on building something more capable than an F-35, OK.

But this just means it'll be even more expensive. Stealth is even now barely affordable, even for the US. For the Europeans, true all aspect stealth is gong to prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I just can't see them re-inventing the F-35 wheel economically, especially since LM isn't likely to give up its secrets. And I'm talking about the biggest secret: How to pump out super stealthy, 5th gen jets with a 4th generation price tag..
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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 14:33

I can't understand why some here are still so stupid or willfully ignorant that they don't realize this new fighter doesn't have to be as capable as the next US 6th-gen or way more capable than the f-35. Saying something like "it's doubtful their engine tech is good enough" or "stealth will be the straw that broke the camels back" is just ignorant of the situation at hand. These countries involved want to preserve their industrial base and know-how, and this is the way. Just because it is not the greatest thing out there doesn't mean it's not the right option.
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vilters

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Unread post12 Feb 2019, 16:45

So want us taxpayers to pay MORE to get LESS?
Just to keep some political clowns in the saddle?

NH 90 = fiasco for each and every client so far
Tiger attack heli = Fiasco => is the ban to fly lifted yet?
Rafale = Fiasco, can not carry half the weapons available
Tiffy = A good Formula1 car, and that's about it.
Tornado = Holy cow, how stupid can one get
AM 400 = if only we had bought C-130
Add another one The BusAir 380 => Most of latest and or follow-on buy's cancelled.

And it is the same for many "European stars".

Buy Mercedes, BMW, Land Rover, just to name a few.
Did you buy a car?
No did not.
You bought an overly expensive maintenance contract, and you get the car under cost.
They'll get you when you come in for service.
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f4u7_corsair

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Unread post13 Feb 2019, 00:10

mixelflick wrote:But the costs involved in achieving something comparable to the F-35 are going to be ginormous.

The F-35 being a great technological achievement does not mean it is a benchmark when it comes to program management - and fortunately so.

I remind that a major source of headache and subsequent costs overrun of the JSF program is the inclusion of the B variant while keeping the overall design relatively streamlined. No such thing on FCAS.

vilters wrote:NH 90 = fiasco for each and every client so far

A hectic ride, but the machine is promising. Maintenance and availability-wise, things are tough, but it's getting better. Just like the JSF.
Tiger attack heli = Fiasco => is the ban to fly lifted yet?

No ban outisde of the Bundeswehr because of bad subcontractor rotor maintenance procedures.
Rafale = Fiasco, can not carry half the weapons available

You're entitled to your own biased opinion, but please expand.
Tiffy = A good Formula1 car, and that's about it.

An excellent BVR Formula 1. It wasn't designed for other missions, although it tries to complete the job.
Tornado = Holy cow, how stupid can one get

Not a stellar achievement, but it did the job.
AM 400 = if only we had bought C-130

A very rough start indeed. Things are getting much better though. Just like the JSF.
And, with Hercules, well, you wouldn't carry half the payload over half the range. But I guess that's enough for the Belgian Air Force (sorry, Belgian Air Component :D ) requirements.
Add another one The BusAir 380 => Most of latest and or follow-on buy's cancelled.

Yes, the A380 programme is a commercial failure.
Oh, but did you hear about the complete success of any other aircraft of the Airbus commercial range?
Why do you even talk about liners either way?

Also, notice that the programmes featuring the most difficulties (NH, Atlas) are led by Airbus, while the manned-aircraft component of FCAS is very highly likely to be led by Dassault which has a stellar record (you may think whatever you want, that's a fact).
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Corsair1963

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Unread post13 Feb 2019, 01:42

mixelflick wrote:I just don't see this happening...

Yes, it's happened in years past: Tornado, Eurofighter. But the costs involved in achieving something comparable to the F-35 are going to be ginormous. And even then, what have you succeeded in doing? Building a European F-35?

They're going to be flying the F-35 already, and it's doubtful British engine tech is going to develop motors comparable to an ADVENT or ACE or whatever comes after the F-135 (out of America). Now if you're planning on building something more capable than an F-35, OK.

But this just means it'll be even more expensive. Stealth is even now barely affordable, even for the US. For the Europeans, true all aspect stealth is gong to prove to be the straw that broke the camel's back.

I just can't see them re-inventing the F-35 wheel economically, especially since LM isn't likely to give up its secrets. And I'm talking about the biggest secret: How to pump out super stealthy, 5th gen jets with a 4th generation price tag..


So, we have at "least" four major 6th Generation Fighter Programs on the horizon. Two from Europe (Tempest & NGF) and two from US (PCA & NGAD). Honestly, hard to see a market for that many???
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marsavian

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Unread post13 Feb 2019, 01:56

The Europeans will sell to themselves, the Middle East and other countries not on good military terms with the US.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post13 Feb 2019, 02:03

marsavian wrote:The Europeans will sell to themselves, the Middle East and other countries not on good military terms with the US.


Europe has struggled to sell the Rafale and Typhoon against American Competition. In addition in the coming decades there will be more countries entering the market place. (Turkey, South Korea, India, etc.)
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