Penetrating Counter Air / Next Generation Air Dominance

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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mixelflick

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Unread post22 Mar 2020, 14:44

wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:



Pre-F-35 Red Flags went well for the blue forces if they scored 2:1, maybe 3:1 over red air (air to air arena), or took "acceptable" (read, more than a few) losses to red SAM's and integrated air defense networks. Flying the F-35, blue force achieved up to 20:1 air to air records, along with few if any losses taking out red SAM's, attacking key targets etc..

That's a BIG difference. They will (almost overnight) out-class much larger air arms, including (in some cases), Russia itself. Lemme put it this way: Russia would take it on the chin were it to send its Flankers, Fulcrums, or what have you into Israel. Every day that ticks by, more F-35I's arrive. And with them, out the door goes any perceived Russian advantage. They can fly their best SU-30SM's/35's into Israel, including their best pilots.

Most of them won't be coming home...

The >20:1 was the first Red Flag F-35s participated in, and with 3i software/envelope limits. 3F jets have had even better performance at Red Flag.


That is really astonishing when you think about it...

Red air is often described as having "the best pilots", many flying damn near clean F-16's with absurd thrust to weight ratios. Until just recently, F-15C's were also assigned to Red Air and their pilots are arguable the best in the air to air business. Throw in the speculated use of F-117's and soon, early block F-35's and what Blue Air faces is nothing short of terrifying.

Yet, we get stories of brand new F-35A/B pilots cleaning their clocks!

So if I'm the USAF, I want this exact dynamic for PCA - but on steroids. It will be much faster and fly much higher than the F-35, launch energy being paramount. It will carry many more AAM's than what the F-35 currently carries - I'm guessing 12 will be the bare minimum. And it will have legs to spare, something on the order of a 1,000 mile combat radius, maybe more.

As for maneuverability, I suspect it'll be on par with the F-22. Some design compromises will have to be made, this being one of them. In exchange for such, it'll have the best stealth seen on an aircraft to date. Perhaps even better than the B-21, depending. 400-500 sound like the right number, but we all know what usually happens... they'll be lucky to wind up with 200 so better to request 750 of them. We'll probably wind up with half of that, that's just how things work in D.C..

When arguing for more, I sincerely hope USAF cites the pickle we're in as a result of stopping F-22 production. That was a BIG mistake, and not learning from it will be an even bigger one...
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count_to_10

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Unread post22 Mar 2020, 20:34

But it may well be that the overwhelming dynamic they are looking for will be found in a stealthy drone controller than an all-in-one fighter.
Einstein got it backward: one cannot prevent a war without preparing for it.

Uncertainty: Learn it, love it, live it.
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weasel1962

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Unread post23 Mar 2020, 10:57

count_to_10 wrote:But it may well be that the overwhelming dynamic they are looking for will be found in a stealthy drone controller than an all-in-one fighter.


I think Elon Musk is onto something but it could take many more years of research. Not that it can't be done but I think that the controls are currently very susceptible to jamming especially over long distances.
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weasel1962

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Unread post24 Mar 2020, 02:32

What would be imho the most spectacular feature of a PCA (or a future drone) would be if someone is able to design a way to get planes rearmed in the air.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Mar 2020, 04:35

wrightwing wrote:
The >20:1 was the first Red Flag F-35s participated in, and with 3i software/envelope limits. 3F jets have had even better performance at Red Flag.


Honestly, the 20 to 1 number is likely on the low side even without the more capable 3F/+. As the Red Flag Aggressors and the ROE (tilted against the F-35) are not representative of the real threat. Which, in most cases is far less......
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wrightwing

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Unread post24 Mar 2020, 06:52

Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
The >20:1 was the first Red Flag F-35s participated in, and with 3i software/envelope limits. 3F jets have had even better performance at Red Flag.


Honestly, the 20 to 1 number is likely on the low side even without the more capable 3F/+. As the Red Flag Aggressors and the ROE (tilted against the F-35) are not representative of the real threat. Which, in most cases is far less......

The 3F jets were doing better than 28:1. The >20:1 (145:7) as well as current losses, were either entirely or in large part due to respawned aggressors, that were already in WVR. That would translate to zero losses, were they real world kills (which don't respawn.)
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Corsair1963

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Unread post24 Mar 2020, 07:19

wrightwing wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
The >20:1 was the first Red Flag F-35s participated in, and with 3i software/envelope limits. 3F jets have had even better performance at Red Flag.


Honestly, the 20 to 1 number is likely on the low side even without the more capable 3F/+. As the Red Flag Aggressors and the ROE (tilted against the F-35) are not representative of the real threat. Which, in most cases is far less......

The 3F jets were doing better than 28:1. The >20:1 (145:7) as well as current losses, were either entirely or in large part due to respawned aggressors, that were already in WVR. That would translate to zero losses, were they real world kills (which don't respawn.)


Which, supports why 4th Generation Fighter are becoming "obsolete" so quickly...
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mixelflick

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Unread post24 Mar 2020, 12:09

wrightwing wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
The >20:1 was the first Red Flag F-35s participated in, and with 3i software/envelope limits. 3F jets have had even better performance at Red Flag.


Honestly, the 20 to 1 number is likely on the low side even without the more capable 3F/+. As the Red Flag Aggressors and the ROE (tilted against the F-35) are not representative of the real threat. Which, in most cases is far less......

The 3F jets were doing better than 28:1. The >20:1 (145:7) as well as current losses, were either entirely or in large part due to respawned aggressors, that were already in WVR. That would translate to zero losses, were they real world kills (which don't respawn.)


Truly astounding. If the F-35 can achieve even half this metric in the real world the long, painful developmental period of F-35 gestation will have been worth it. It took a LOT of $ and a LOT of time, but they finally got it right...
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juretrn

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Unread post26 Mar 2020, 23:14

mixelflick wrote:Truly astounding. If the F-35 can achieve even half this metric in the real world the long, painful developmental period of F-35 gestation will have been worth it. It took a LOT of $ and a LOT of time, but they finally got it right...

You would think the world's biggest defense contractor would be able to attract top talent, and use it in a world class design team with amazing record such as Skunk Works.
And to think there are people out there that think not only the F-35 is not a world class aircraft, but is in fact subpar... :bang:
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