J-20 goes operational again

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 06:07

J-20s from 9th Air Brigade scored 17:0 in training exercise

Posted on September 15, 2020


The PLA News reported on Sept. 15 that the 9th Air Brigade at Wuhu recently achieved 17:0 in aerial victories during a training exercise.


J20XXX.jpg


The 9th Air Brigade is assigned under the 3rd Air Division of the Eastern Theater Command.


http://alert5.com/2020/09/15/j-20s-from ... more-84603
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weasel1962

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 08:45

Lots of salt needed.
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hornetfinn

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 11:00

weasel1962 wrote:Lots of salt needed.


You mean that kill ratio? I think it would be pretty bad if J-20 wasn't significantly better than any of their previous aircraft. They could've faced plain Su-27s/J-11s or even ancient J-7s and they should be easy targets for J-20 unless they were heavily outnumbered (unlikely at this point IMO). They also currently likely have their best pilots flying J-20s as there are not that many of them around.
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weasel1962

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 11:50

The PLA daily report didn't even specify the plane flown (they showed a pic of the Su-30MKK which the unit operated), just the pilot name but the attribution is made by media to 9 Bde's J-20. It could be performed against JJ-7s or JL-10s. It could be heavily scripted or most likely just plane propaganda vis recent Indian gaslighting. Salty....
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 14:16

element1loop wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:I don't think there is enough weight data to validate a claim that the J-20 is under-powered. The F-35 carries 13-18k lbs of fuel but has only 75% thrust of the twin AL-35F J-20. No one here thinks the F-35 is under-powered. The Su-27/34 are larger planes than the J-20. Is the Su-34 also under-powered?

The 58k lb thrust F-15E is a d*mn good bomb truck. Based on those specs, Not sure why a J-20 can't replicate some of those qualities. They could be however trade offs e.g. smaller fuel tank/payloads?

On a separate note, China TV had a broadcast on its JSOW equivalent (1000lb class 60+km ranged wingkit cargo bomb).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAqF3l-HHw0


With max fuel and weapons as fuel burns down the J-20 P:W is quite similar to J-10. F-15E always has better P:W and it gets quite a bit better, sooner, as its fuel burns down to and past 50% level. I don't think they compare well.

The J-20 does have F-35 sensor/comms and network ISR targeting layout which is IMO, the real issue even if it doesn't have attack weapons yet, or the mature sensors. It's going to be a big threat even without the attack weapons on board. Especially if it does get a real engine capability improvement in 5 to 10 years that enables external standoff weapon delivery, on top of internal stealthy A2A.

It's how those J20 sensors and comms are exploited as network data which will be the problem, near term, as opposed to becoming a bomb truck later. Their P:W is a bit meh, if they just use it with VLO tactics to leverage the ISR data flow for targeting, instead of lose them engaging in aggressive A2A. I don't see why they would focus on A2A more than absolutely needed, to kill tankers or other main enablers, they need a lot more numbers and system maturity first.

weasel1962 wrote:Is the Su-34 also under-powered?


Su34 isn't a dedicated A2A platform though, and J20 isn't a bomb truck. It does need more thrust than it has to compete with the F-22A at high altitude. That's what it's supposed to be a reply to. But LO design means it can get by without the added thrust to do that, for now.

[Better hope it never has an F-35A chasing its tail though ... :D ]


The main problem that the J-20 will always have is that
Its playing in the F-35s/ F-22s domain.
If its hunting high value assets then its likely that these assets will be heavily defended.
Im am not confident in the J-20s rear aspect stealth to say that they would be able to fire weapons and escape.
And what about firing solution? Have they mastered LPI techniques? Can they close the kill chain versus other stealth fighters? We know the other fighters can.
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jessmo112

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Unread post15 Sep 2020, 19:51

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mixelflick

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 17:21

If they get powerful enough engines on this baby, it'll be a serious threat. That and they'll probably build more than 200, thus surpassing the Raptor in #'s. Yes, I realize the F-35's procurement will be massive but I'm not sure if it'll become a dedicated J-20 hunter. More likely when the situation calls for self defense, as was seen in DS where two F/A-18C's took out two Mig-21's.

Of course, now that we know NGAD/PCA has flown they'll need to counter that too. The $ that's going to take is mind boggling, and doesn't take into account the $ they're spending on J-20, J-31, H-2 and whatever other stealth birds they have.
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milosh

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Unread post16 Sep 2020, 18:20

mixelflick wrote:If they get powerful enough engines on this baby, it'll be a serious threat. That and they'll probably build more than 200, thus surpassing the Raptor in #'s. Yes, I realize the F-35's procurement will be massive but I'm not sure if it'll become a dedicated J-20 hunter. More likely when the situation calls for self defense, as was seen in DS where two F/A-18C's took out two Mig-21's.

Of course, now that we know NGAD/PCA has flown they'll need to counter that too. The $ that's going to take is mind boggling, and doesn't take into account the $ they're spending on J-20, J-31, H-2 and whatever other stealth birds they have.


Last thing US need is China do massive increase of military budget. I mean they are spending something like 2%, even with that they are outruning US in new procurment and PLAAN growth is something we didn't saw expect in WW1/2, they will double fleet of modern destroyers in just 5 years from ~20 in 2020 to ~40 in 2025!
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sferrin

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Unread post17 Sep 2020, 18:16

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If they get powerful enough engines on this baby, it'll be a serious threat. That and they'll probably build more than 200, thus surpassing the Raptor in #'s. Yes, I realize the F-35's procurement will be massive but I'm not sure if it'll become a dedicated J-20 hunter. More likely when the situation calls for self defense, as was seen in DS where two F/A-18C's took out two Mig-21's.

Of course, now that we know NGAD/PCA has flown they'll need to counter that too. The $ that's going to take is mind boggling, and doesn't take into account the $ they're spending on J-20, J-31, H-2 and whatever other stealth birds they have.


Last thing US need is China do massive increase of military budget. I mean they are spending something like 2%, even with that they are outruning US in new procurment and PLAAN growth is something we didn't saw expect in WW1/2, they will double fleet of modern destroyers in just 5 years from ~20 in 2020 to ~40 in 2025!


Just go look at the amount of cranes in the shipyard they're building carrier 003 in. The crane at Newport News is the biggest in the Western hemisphere. China has several cranes as big, or bigger, in that ship yard alone, and several others there close to it. More at Dalian.
"There I was. . ."
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jessmo112

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Unread post17 Sep 2020, 19:07

Your missing something though.
China has been dependent on the west for tech and free trade. How will you keep the gravy train rolling with no new tech to steal, and a economic contraction?
To make matters worse Chinas shipping is increasingly vulnerable to U.S. and allied intervention and blockade.
Very few countries are going to let the Chinese willingly build bases to defend oil shipping.
Most countries in Africa are now pissed at China for behavior during the COVID crisis.
They are bullying India, Australia Britain and every country far and wide that they contact.
Its been revealed in the last few months that They believe the Russians stole vladivostok from them.
The only real ally they have is Pakistan.
Chinas foreign policy has been a disaster in 2020.
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jessmo112

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Unread post03 Oct 2020, 01:39

More J-20 info. Cost and development issues.


https://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htair ... 01002.aspx

tight. China also revealed that development of the J20 has, cost $4.4 billion as of 2018 and that the construction cost for each aircraft is $110 million. In addition to the manufacturing difficulties, there were performance problems with the prototypes and six production models turned over to the Chinese Air Force by 2018.

Also did you guys know they are having these kinds of
Development issues?

China has had persistent problems developing high-performance jet engines. China has been developing the more powerful (and supercruise ready) WS-15 engine since the 1990s, for a larger aircraft like the J20. Despite a lot of effort, the WS-15 was still not able to work reliably enough for service (rather than a prototype) aircraft. Officials also confirmed rumors that a WS-15 exploded during a 2015 static (on the ground) test. That failure had been a secret but when an engine this big fails by blowing up the incident is difficult to hide. It also turned out that the WS-1
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jessmo112

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Unread post03 Oct 2020, 05:37

Corsair1963 wrote:J-20s from 9th Air Brigade scored 17:0 in training exercise

Posted on September 15, 2020


The PLA News reported on Sept. 15 that the 9th Air Brigade at Wuhu recently achieved 17:0 in aerial victories during a training exercise.


J20XXX.jpg


The 9th Air Brigade is assigned under the 3rd Air Division of the Eastern Theater Command.


http://alert5.com/2020/09/15/j-20s-from ... more-84603


This should be sobering for the Chinese.
Not because of the J-20s numbers but because they have to realize how vulnerable they are to allied stealth aircraft, Which will soon be in theater by the hundreds.
Japan alone is really going all in on the F-35.
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mixelflick

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Unread post05 Oct 2020, 16:16

I for one wasn't aware they were having such issues, so thank you.

I mean, I think we all assumed the engine difficulties were always there. But a whole bird exploding on the ground? That was news to me. Cost of $110 million/copy is a bit of a surprise, meaning I thought it would cost a lot more. If the 110 figure is true, it means its within the F-35's price range and far easier for them to buy more.

Given all of the design changes and ongoing issues, it sounds like their teething problems aren't done yet...
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jessmo112

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Unread post05 Oct 2020, 20:40

I think we all took for granted that all Chinese equipment is cheap and affordable. That's what they have been pushing for years.
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Unread post06 Oct 2020, 00:46

mixelflick wrote:Given all of the design changes and ongoing issues, it sounds like their teething problems aren't done yet...


If one looks at PLAAF fighter production, its improvement by batches. Example, the original J-10A replaced its intakes with DSI in J-10B, followed by AESA & localized engine in J-10C. They don't do retrofit. They upgraded the AL-31FN to the series 3 and at the same time developed their local engine.

Same modus operandi will apply to J-20. Later batches will incorporate changes in design, construction, engine & avionics upgrades.
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