UK next gen fighter

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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wil59

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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 08:22

Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?
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southernphantom

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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 10:14

wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?


Seriously (Syriasly)?
I'm a mining engineer. How the hell did I wind up here?
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wil59

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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 11:14

wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?
.
Apart from bombardment with a B2 ?! A bombardment with a 4 th generation aircraft would have given the same results.
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wil59

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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 11:22

wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
marsavian wrote:As a collective group of aviation enthusiasts we should not get sucked up to manufacturers claims of post 5th generation aircraft until everyone agrees what 6th generation aircraft really are. Nothing I have seen proposed looks revolutionary compared to the F-35 which
is the quintessential mass produced 5th generation fighter. It really does have to have quantum leaps in capability to justify a next generation moniker.



Actually, I think the US is very wise to take it's time with the PCA/NGAD. As we haven't figured out half of what the F-35 can really do. Let alone the Generation (6th) beyond that....

This while Europe appears to be making the same mistake they did with both the Rafale and Typhoon. That is instead of developing them as 5th Generation Fighters. They took a small leap (less risky) and developed the two aforementioned as "4.5 Generation Fighters". Yet, by time they arrived the American 5th Generation F-22 and F-35 where hot on their heels....

Maybe it's just me but the FCAS and Tempest sure look more like a 5.5 Generation Fighter. Than a big leap 6th Generation one....
.
An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?

What I mean is that the 5th generation will be relevant when the Russian and China have a consequent 5th generation hunt. It's not the pak-fa RCS and the j20, I really doubt their claims on their furtives.
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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 15:09

J-20 is not a low RCS aircraft, it is true stealth. The LRIP J-20 has exceptional detail. The prototypes did not. It would be silly to under-estimate the production J-20.
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Unread post28 Nov 2019, 17:00

INST

"The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s..."

And we know this, how??

Did the Chinese offer up this information, the same way we did when the F-35 achieved a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag?? If so, this would be a major departure in what the Chinese share about their weapons systems...
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Unread post02 Dec 2019, 13:07

mixelflick wrote:INST

"The Chinese quickly changed their tune the moment they had the J-20 running and began running war games against their J-11 and J-10 aircraft. Even with AEW&C support, the J-20s end up dominating J-11s and J-10s..."

And we know this, how??

Did the Chinese offer up this information, the same way we did when the F-35 achieved a 20:1 kill ratio at Red Flag?? If so, this would be a major departure in what the Chinese share about their weapons systems...

hum, a J-10 or a J-11 are not really capable planes like the super hornet or rafale and in embedded electronics they must be very far from the hornet or rafale capabilities.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 04:07

wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:
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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 13:17

Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Well, except for the F-35 which is exporting. Mainly for political reasons and also to be able to benefit from the protection of the United States via NATO, I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use and perfectly blend the work that is required. I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required. Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion. The French manufacturing policy is not dark if we do not control new technologies but to do it little by little. Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 13:58

wil59 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
wil59 wrote:An error the 4.5 generation!?. Tell me when the 5 generations have participated in an armed conflict in the last 15 years?



Tell me how many 4.5 Generation Fighters (Typhoon and Rafale) are going to be exported in the coming decade... :doh:

Well, except for the F-35 which is exporting. Mainly for political reasons and also to be able to benefit from the protection of the United States via NATO, I do not believe that the 4.5 generations are a mistake, they are cheaper to use and perfectly blend the work that is required. I have never heard a Rafale pilot complain, but rather the opposite, saying that it is a reliable machine that perfectly executes what is required. Stealth is good for some missions but it is possible to do otherwise with a non-stealth aircraft and I don't think they have s-400s on every street corner. In short, everyone's opinion. The French manufacturing policy is not dark if we do not control new technologies but to do it little by little. Look at the problems that the F-35 has encountered during all these years since its design and it is not yet finished! Sorry if my honesty can drive you crazy here, I mean, he has a lot of F-35 boy fans here. But I repeat, apart from the F-35, which 5th generation aircraft was exported?
.

I would add that the United States was the only country 30/40 years ago to invest in stealth research and design a stealth aircraft. No other country can afford it, the United States defence budget was higher than all other countries combined. The other countries France, England etc. could not follow the path of the United States. Apart from China, which has been investing heavily in the 5th generation for 10/15 years now, it is normal since China has considerably increased its defence budget over the past 10/15 years, other countries cannot keep up with this. This is why the 5ięme generation project is only now starting for France and England, which have the technical capacity to do so for a long time now, to see the Taranis or the Neuron. It was all about money, that's all! And since they had invested in the 4.5 generations they didn't have the attention to reinvest in the 5 consecutive generations.
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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 16:50

No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.
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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 16:58

vilters wrote:NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) is willing to spend the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination..

FTFY

EU and USA economy has always been very close to each other.
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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 17:19

vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.
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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 17:36

wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

I thought the Rafale and Typhoon were good enough. Which is it? Even EU nations know that with the US selling F-35s, and China/Russia at some point selling Su-57, J-20, and J-31s, along with myriad SAM systems, that 4th gen jets have a limited shelf life. What remains to be seen, is if they can avoid political clusterf@$me, and build their 5th generation jets in a timely and affordable manner.
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wil59

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Unread post03 Dec 2019, 20:16

wrightwing wrote:
wil59 wrote:
vilters wrote:No country,
I WILL write that again:

NO country (or any combination of countries in Europe) has the funds to properly R&D a true stealth airframe/engine combination.

We missed that boat completely.

Really! Really! So tell me why France and England launched the 5/6th generation program with their respective partners! You are the Tempest program, and SCAF, I reassure you that they are not cars! but beautiful and well a 5 or 6 th generation fighter aircraft program. So you're going to say they can't do it, in short, don't answer my post anymore you'll do me a favor tdc.

I thought the Rafale and Typhoon were good enough. Which is it? Even EU nations know that with the US selling F-35s, and China/Russia at some point selling Su-57, J-20, and J-31s, along with myriad SAM systems, that 4th gen jets have a limited shelf life. What remains to be seen, is if they can avoid political clusterf@$me, and build their 5th generation jets in a timely and affordable manner.

Well at the present time the Rafale is still current and efficient and will be even more so with the F4 standard in 2022, I invite you to consult the F4 specificities on connectivity, networking, etc. This evolution of the French aircraft should allow it to bring it fully into the network battle with new satellite and intra-patrol links, communication server, software radio. New functions will also be developed to improve aircraft capabilities such as sensor and radar evolution, frontal sector optronics (IRST), helmet sight capabilities and new weapons will be integrated such as the Mica NG air-to-air missile and the 1000 kg modular air-to-ground weaponry.

Finally, in terms of availability, Dassault works within the framework of an MCO (Maintenance in Operational Condition) which will be more verticalized under the authority of the aircraft manufacturer. F4 will include a new Prognosis and Diagnostic Assistance System introducing predictive maintenance capabilities. Other maintenance optimizations are also planned, including solutions based on Big Data and artificial intelligence. Finally, the Rafale will be equipped with a new engine control unit, and validation of the F4 standard is planned for 2024, with some functions available from 2022. The response to the F-35:

There was one important step missing to counter Lockheed-Martin's F-35, that of connectivity. It will soon be done with the "F4". With increased computing capacity, the aircraft will be able to communicate with drones, ground armoured vehicles and surface vessels, in order to react faster and with greater accuracy. The European response is being put in place, with aircraft that will be able to operate in "big data" mode while remaining manageable and efficient at all levels.

The mission for the French aircraft manufacturer: to deliver it to the armed forces by 2023 for a contract worth nearly two billion euros. As the Minister pointed out, some thirty other F4 Rafales were ordered by the State for delivery between 2027 and 2030. All of them represent the first embryo of the SCAF (air combat system of the future), a European programme under French leadership, the Rafale F4 will fly with drones and the SCAF and all this in a hyperconnectivity, so the burst will still have its place in 2030 and therefore is certainly not a mistake, saying that the Rafale is outdated is really a joke.
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