Army Not Afraid to Send Future Helos Against Russian GBAD

Helicopters and tilt-rotor aircraft
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post11 Sep 2019, 23:19

vilters wrote:Not a soul studies the fight between ground level and 10 meters up, and below 60 kts.
Wanna win? That's where you have to be capable.

This is an Aviation Forum. Don't want to discuss aviation? Don't come here.
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vilters

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Unread post11 Sep 2019, 23:31

Oh? Heli's are not part of the aviaton club any more?
Low and slow it the way to victory.

In the Flight Levels you can play Santa for my part.

Rusty Toyota trucks have no Wings to come up to where you are dreaming.
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garrya

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 05:12

vilters wrote:How fast do trains go?

When the F-16 came to Europe early 1980's their radars where useless.
They painted all cars on German highways, and most trains on their screens.

Their initial radars had to be "upgraded" to remove all ground clutter like cars and trains.
And if you really want to cheat?
Go hang above and follow a locomotiv or large truck or bus.
And in France and other countries, you need turbo copters to follow the TGV (high speed train)

Helicopter's rotor blades, plane's propeller, jet engine's turbine blade all have very distinct signature characteristics that allow radars to distinguish them from clutter.
Turbine signal character.PNG

helicopter blade.PNG


APG-81 can distinguish between an APC, a tank and a truck and cue targets for pilot autonomously
1.png

2.png

3.PNG
Last edited by garrya on 12 Sep 2019, 05:22, edited 1 time in total.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 05:22

vilters wrote:Oh? Heli's are not part of the aviaton club any more?
Low and slow it the way to victory.

In the Flight Levels you can play Santa for my part.

Rusty Toyota trucks have no Wings to come up to where you are dreaming.

Helis fly over ten meters and over 60 knots, I know, I've seen them. They are also fodder for fighter aircraft. Troops on the ground can get bombed from the air. When troops on the ground get stuck fighting other troops on the ground they call for fighter jets and bombers to get there and bomb the snot out of the enemy because a Helo takes too long to get to the scene. This isn't a theoretical fantasy, this is what the US military has been experiencing for the last 18 years.

Your "rusty Toyota" has a 50 cal machine gun with thousands of rounds in the bed that make it a huge problem for ground troops. It is a walk in the park for a fighter jet to plink it out of existence.

If you think the entire purpose of the Air Force is something other than making the ground pounders life as easy as possible then you are the one who is dreaming.
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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 07:48

The Armored BCT routinely operates with Apaches flying directly overhead. The Apache stays safe by operating over friendly forces whie using its elevated position to sight targets for the ABCT. Russian armor columns will be attrited terribly by waves of hellfires fired way before they can engage the abrams. And now they might be getting LR Spike missiles with a 32kn range. Perfect for engaging targets ID-ed by off board sensors at standoff ranges.
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vilters

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 11:05

garrya wrote:
vilters wrote:How fast do trains go?

When the F-16 came to Europe early 1980's their radars where useless.
They painted all cars on German highways, and most trains on their screens.

Their initial radars had to be "upgraded" to remove all ground clutter like cars and trains.
And if you really want to cheat?
Go hang above and follow a locomotiv or large truck or bus.
And in France and other countries, you need turbo copters to follow the TGV (high speed train)

Helicopter's rotor blades, plane's propeller, jet engine's turbine blade all have very distinct signature characteristics that allow radars to distinguish them from clutter.
Turbine signal character.PNG

helicopter blade.PNG


APG-81 can distinguish between an APC, a tank and a truck and cue targets for pilot autonomously
1.png

2.png

3.PNG


Anybody believing in advertising spots needs a wake up call.
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vilters

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 11:08

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
vilters wrote:Oh? Heli's are not part of the aviaton club any more?
Low and slow it the way to victory.

In the Flight Levels you can play Santa for my part.

Rusty Toyota trucks have no Wings to come up to where you are dreaming.

Helis fly over ten meters and over 60 knots, I know, I've seen them. They are also fodder for fighter aircraft. Troops on the ground can get bombed from the air. When troops on the ground get stuck fighting other troops on the ground they call for fighter jets and bombers to get there and bomb the snot out of the enemy because a Helo takes too long to get to the scene. This isn't a theoretical fantasy, this is what the US military has been experiencing for the last 18 years.

Your "rusty Toyota" has a 50 cal machine gun with thousands of rounds in the bed that make it a huge problem for ground troops. It is a walk in the park for a fighter jet to plink it out of existence.

If you think the entire purpose of the Air Force is something other than making the ground pounders life as easy as possible then you are the one who is dreaming.


And again, you are missing the point.
Heli's "can" fly higher and faster. But is it "smart" to do so?
The trick is to hide in the ground clutter.
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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 11:58

vilters wrote:
garrya wrote:Helicopter's rotor blades, plane's propeller, jet engine's turbine blade all have very distinct signature characteristics that allow radars to distinguish them from clutter.

APG-81 can distinguish between an APC, a tank and a truck and cue targets for pilot autonomously


Anybody believing in advertising spots needs a wake up call.


Sorry vilters, but I got enough personal hands-on experience with real world radars (modern and not quite that modern) and that's not only advertising talk. Sure 1970s F-16 AN/APG-66 could not do that with their very limited processing power, but modern radars (especially AESA) are something totally different. They have far superior resolution, signal processing and computing power in general to allow these kinds of things.
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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 15:24

vilters wrote:Nice picture of your mirror laughing at you.

Like I told you before, there is no fight at FL300.
Well, not counting the Red Flag master of Useless Glory of course.

Exept Ruskies doing backslides in overhyped Puntinski stuff, and some state sponsored Chinese trying to copycat the next great thing.

For my part they can play Santa up there. The fight is on the ground.

Not a soul studies the fight between ground level and 10 meters up, and below 60 kts.
Wanna win? That's where you have to be capable.


LOL vilters how do you get the helicopter rotors to slow to 60 knots? :lmao: :lmao:


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no one "studies the fighting at ground level"

how do you claim to have been in the military?? someone needs to hide your booze
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XanderCrews

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 15:28

vilters wrote:Oh? Heli's are not part of the aviaton club any more?
Low and slow it the way to victory.

In the Flight Levels you can play Santa for my part.




*Laughs in RPG*

vilters wrote:And again, you are missing the point.
Heli's "can" fly higher and faster. But is it "smart" to do so?
The trick is to hide in the ground clutter.



Image

Have you even ever seen a helicopter?

better still youre basing this on the early 80s, and already said yourself they then upgraded the radar to fix them hiding.

Belgium, yes
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charlielima223

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 17:13

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:When troops on the ground get stuck fighting other troops on the ground they call for fighter jets and bombers to get there and bomb the snot out of the enemy because a Helo takes too long to get to the scene. This isn't a theoretical fantasy, this is what the US military has been experiencing for the last 18 years.

Your "rusty Toyota" has a 50 cal machine gun with thousands of rounds in the bed that make it a huge problem for ground troops. It is a walk in the park for a fighter jet to plink it out of existence.

If you think the entire purpose of the Air Force is something other than making the ground pounders life as easy as possible then you are the one who is dreaming.


US ground forces and commanders will use what ever asset is readily available and/or most suitable for the task at hand; be it an F-35, Bone, Warthog, Reaper, or an Apache. In some cases an attack helicopter is suitable for close air support role because it can deliver fire in a more precise manner than any fixed wing asset...



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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post12 Sep 2019, 17:29

charlielima223 wrote:US ground forces and commanders will use what ever asset is readily available and/or most suitable for the task at hand; be it an F-35, Bone, Warthog, Reaper, or an Apache. In some cases an attack helicopter is suitable for close air support role because it can deliver fire in a more precise manner than any fixed wing asset...

I don't disagree with that at all. My point is that unless the Helo or RPA asset is already on station due to being an organic part of the uni in contact, or already on station performing recon, the most "readily available" asset tends to fly at speeds measures as percentages of Mach. I have personally seen video taken by a Predator as it filmed an F-16 bombing a house filled with enemy combatants because the Predator wasn't equipped for the target. I've also seen video where two hellfire missiles were used by an Apache to kill one man, because the first one didn't do the job.

My point is there is no realistic scenario where Helos/Drones will just take care of everything for the fast movers.
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Unread post13 Sep 2019, 22:41

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote: I have personally seen video taken by a Predator as it filmed an F-16 bombing a house filled with enemy combatants because the Predator wasn't equipped for the target. I've also seen video where two hellfire missiles were used by an Apache to kill one man, because the first one didn't do the job.

My point is there is no realistic scenario where Helos/Drones will just take care of everything for the fast movers.


Yeah I think I've seen that video as well. The Hellfire wasn't designed to take out soft targets in the open. However the the Hellfire now has a different flavors...
>AGM-114M has a incendiary and blast fragmentation warhead for soft targets, common vehicles, and soft urban structures.
>AGM-114N has a thermobaric warhead to better deal with buildings and enclose structures.
There is even a non explosive purely kinetic version.
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