Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 00:42
by SpudmanWP
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016 ... light.html

Military.com | Nov 07, 2016 | by Hope Hodge Seck
The Marine Corps is investigating after an F-35B Joint Strike Fighter based out of Beaufort, South Carolina, recently caught fire in mid-air, Military.com has learned.

The incident happened Oct. 27 at Marine Fighter Attack Training Squadron 501, a fleet replacement squadron for the Marine Corps consisting of 20 F-35B aircraft. One of the aircraft experienced a fire in the weapons bay while conducting a training mission over Beaufort, 1st Lt. John Roberts, a spokesman for 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, told Military.com.

"The aircraft landed safely and there were no injuries sustained," he said. "An investigation is ongoing and we will provide updates as they are available."

No estimate of damage caused by the fire was available. The incident was listed by the Naval Safety Center as a Class A mishap, meaning damage totalled $2 million or more on the $100 million aircraft.

The squadron didn't observe any kind of grounding or operational pause as a result of the mishap, Roberts said.

The F-35 program has suffered several setbacks due to aircraft catching fire, though previous incidents involved the Air Force's F-35A conventional take-off and landing variant.

In June 2014, an F-35A caught fire upon takeoff at Eglin Air Force Base, Florida, prompting the Defense Department to ground the entire F-35 fleet as it investigated the incident. This move forced the Marine Corps to postpone what was to have been the F-35B's international debut at the Farnborough International Airshow that summer.

The damage to the aircraft in that incident came to more than $50 million and was determined to have been caused by a rotor arm that detached and came through the aircraft's upper fuselage, cutting fuel and hydraulic lines in its trajectory.

More recently, in September, an F-35A from the 61st Fighter Squadron caught fire in the aft section of the aircraft after its engine was started, forcing the pilot to exit the aircraft.

In an unrelated issue, the Air Force grounded 15 F-35As the same month due to failing coolant tube insulation.

For the Marine Corps, this incident comes at a crucial time for the aircraft, as the first operational F-35B squadron, Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 121, prepares to forward-base from Yuma, Arizona to Japan in January, ahead of a sea deployment in the Pacific early the following year. The aircraft is now completing its third and final round of at-sea developmental tests aboard the amphibious assault ship USS America off the coast of San Diego, and is expected to complete them later this month.

-- Hope Hodge Seck can be reached at hope.seck@military.com. Follow her on Twitter at @HopeSeck.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 01:14
by sferrin
"The F-35 program has suffered several setbacks due to aircraft catching fire, though previous incidents involved the Air Force's F-35A conventional take-off and landing variant."

:roll: These "journalists" should really compare the F-35 to other aircraft at this point in their development. They would be surprised.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 04:52
by SpudmanWP
sferrin wrote: :roll: These "journalists" should really compare the F-35 to other aircraft at this point in their development. They would be surprised.


The term "lawn dart" comes to mind :doh:

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 06:46
by geforcerfx
Even with the issues like this popping up the F-35's safety and performance record is amazing, not a single crash, and no pilot injury or death. All of the teen series had crashed within there first 10 years and i believe they had all had a pilot death as well (dunno about the F/a-18).

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 07:14
by beepa
The fire was in the weapons bay? If that happened during vertical landing with the doors open it may not have had such a happy ending.
Shouldn't this post be in the F35 Forum?

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 07:59
by 35_aoa
geforcerfx wrote:Even with the issues like this popping up the F-35's safety and performance record is amazing, not a single crash, and no pilot injury or death. All of the teen series had crashed within there first 10 years and i believe they had all had a pilot death as well (dunno about the F/a-18).


The Hornet definitely did……..could have been one before this during the first couple years, but the first I am aware of is the very first (of many) F/A-18 planing link failures. Ended up in the ditch off the side of RWY 24 at Miramar, upside down, and drowned in a pool of water while the ARFF guys who had never seen a Hornet before tried to figure out what to do……or so the story goes anyway. Guy flying it had been one of the Libyan Fitter killers. In spite of literally dozens of modifications and fixes to the main landing gear assembly, this problem still plagues the F/A-18A-D community 30+ years later.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-12-04/local/me-470_1_landing-gear

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 14:37
by hythelday
If no aircraft were grounded, is it possible that something else caught fire, e.g. ACMI pod?

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 15:28
by geforcerfx
35_aoa wrote:The Hornet definitely did……..could have been one before this during the first couple years, but the first I am aware of is the very first (of many) F/A-18 planing link failures. Ended up in the ditch off the side of RWY 24 at Miramar, upside down, and drowned in a pool of water while the ARFF guys who had never seen a Hornet before tried to figure out what to do……or so the story goes anyway. Guy flying it had been one of the Libyan Fitter killers. In spite of literally dozens of modifications and fixes to the main landing gear assembly, this problem still plagues the F/A-18A-D community 30+ years later.

http://articles.latimes.com/1985-12-04/local/me-470_1_landing-gear


Thank You, I couldn't find a list of accidents that went back further then the 90's for the F/a-18 family. I remember reading about all the tail structure problems they had in the early days, so I figured one had crashed for sure, just didn't know if a pilot was loss in the early crashes with the hornets. Had never heard about landing gear issues with the hornet.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 20:27
by Dragon029
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... re-431286/

The cause of the weapons bay fire is still not specified, but the event did also affect the IPP and a hydraulics system. Maybe the IPP started the fire, or maybe a hydraulic leak and/or chaffed wire caused a fire in the weapons bay that starved the IPP of hydraulics, or perhaps the fire just destroyed a hydraulics line and either wiring, PAO or fuel line that the IPP uses.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 20:28
by SpudmanWP
1st Lt. John Roberts, a spokesman for 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, told USNI News today that the Marine Corps had not yet determined the actual cost of the damage. If it does exceed the $2 million threshold, it would be the first Class A mishap ever for the Marines’ variant of the .

Roberts told USNI News that “at this point there’s nothing in the works, nothing being planned as far as a fleet wide stand-down or impact on training” for either the training squadron or the rest of thefleet. The Marine Corps has two operational squadrons, as well as Marines flying operational and developmental test planes. Several organizations are investigating various aspects of the incident, and Roberts could not say how long the investigation might take.

More at the jump

https://news.usni.org/2016/11/08/-in-tr ... on-ongoing

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 08 Nov 2016, 22:04
by zerion
SpudmanWP wrote:
1st Lt. John Roberts, a spokesman for 2nd Marine Aircraft Wing, told USNI News today that the Marine Corps had not yet determined the actual cost of the damage. If it does exceed the $2 million threshold, it would be the first Class A mishap ever for the Marines’ variant of the .

Roberts told USNI News that “at this point there’s nothing in the works, nothing being planned as far as a fleet wide stand-down or impact on training” for either the training squadron or the rest of thefleet. The Marine Corps has two operational squadrons, as well as Marines flying operational and developmental test planes. Several organizations are investigating various aspects of the incident, and Roberts could not say how long the investigation might take.

More at the jump

https://news.usni.org/2016/11/08/-in-tr ... on-ongoing


It's been reported as a class A.

The incident was listed by the Naval Safety Center as a "Class A Mishap" — the most serious mishap class — which means that there was $2 million or more in damage. The Safety Center's report said the fire occurred in the aircraft's weapons bay on Oct. 27, and was followed by an "uneventful landing."

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 00:22
by rkap
sferrin wrote:"The F-35 program has suffered several setbacks due to aircraft catching fire, though previous incidents involved the Air Force's F-35A conventional take-off and landing variant."

:roll: These "journalists" should really compare the F-35 to other aircraft at this point in their development. They would be surprised.


Yes! I agree. Journalists should compare the F-35 to other aircraft at similar periods in there development.
F15 - Dec 1969 Selected and Funded - operational 1976 - 7years - 384 built and operational by 1979.
F35 - October 2001 Selected and Funded - how many partly operational 2016 ???? - 15years.

Face the facts. No matter how effective the F35 ends up in 20?? its development has been a disaster.
Airforces all around the world waiting and hoping and adopting interim replacements and upgrades.
Now finally facing reality we have the US Airforce and Navy in desperation buying or wanting to buy new 4th Gen or upgrade 4th Gen aircraft to fil the gap until 20??
The US also considering two new CAS aircraft and upgrading and considering how to extend the life of the A10.
Come 2040/50 and there still will be upgraded and new 4th Gen flying all around the world.
Since when was that the plan. The F35 was to replace them all.
So much for the predictions of the "Penthouse Dwellers."

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 00:36
by SpudmanWP
Move advanced fighters take longer to develop, especially in the middle of an economic downturn, than they did in the 1970s. Computers & advanced integrated avionics are a big chunk of that. Add that to the increased scrutiny & attention to detail that today's development entails and you begin to understand why it take this long.

Compare the F-35 to the F-22, Rafale, or Eurofighter and they all took just as long.

btw, The F-35 is only 5 years late.

Now finally facing reality we have the US Airforce and Navy in desperation buying or wanting to buy new 4th Gen or upgrade 4th Gen aircraft to fil the gap until 20??

No they are not "desperate" to or buying any new 4th gen assets. Boeing has made some small success in getting some congressmen to add a few frames to the budget, but that is short-lived and not being required by the DoD. The only reason the USN has a shortfall is they have not properly planned for the gap as they were spending all their money on ships.

Come 2040/50 and there still will be upgraded and new 4th Gen flying all around the world.
Since when was that the plan. The F35 was to replace them all.

Only updated F-15s will be flying then and the F-35 was not designed to replace them. They were supposed to be replaced by the F-22 which got cut off at 187 thereby forcing the upgrades to the F-15s.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 07:18
by neurotech
From an updated Mishap summary:
FIRE WPN BAY R, IPP FAIL, HYD FAIL B in the landing pattern.

Apparently, the IPP runs for certain in-flight emergencies, including hydraulic failures.

Having a IPP fail and HYD B fail together, and the jet described as "Uknown" damage doesn't sound good.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 07:41
by geforcerfx
rkap wrote:
Yes! I agree. Journalists should compare the F-35 to other aircraft at similar periods in there development.
F15 - Dec 1969 Selected and Funded - operational 1976 - 7years - 384 built and operational by 1979.
F35 - October 2001 Selected and Funded - how many partly operational 2016 ???? - 15years.

Face the facts. No matter how effective the F35 ends up in 20?? its development has been a disaster.
Airforces all around the world waiting and hoping and adopting interim replacements and upgrades.
Now finally facing reality we have the US Airforce and Navy in desperation buying or wanting to buy new 4th Gen or upgrade 4th Gen aircraft to fil the gap until 20??
The US also considering two new CAS aircraft and upgrading and considering how to extend the life of the A10.
Come 2040/50 and there still will be upgraded and new 4th Gen flying all around the world.
Since when was that the plan. The F35 was to replace them all.
So much for the predictions of the "Penthouse Dwellers."


Yeah 9 years and the F-15's had only crashed 6 times with 3 or 4 pilots killed, great comparison. By 1979 how many of those F-15 had landed vertically? Or taken off from a aircraft carrier? If your gonna compare the F-35 to aircraft then you have to compare it to aircraft built with similar technology, otherwise you can do this. The P-51 was ordered in march 1940 by the RAF. It went operational in 1942 and had over 1300 aircraft flying in the RAF by 1943, the F-15's development was a failure.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 12:16
by hythelday
rkap wrote:Yes! I agree. Journalists should compare the F-35 to other aircraft at similar periods in there development.
F15 - Dec 1969 Selected and Funded - operational 1976 - 7years - 384 built and operational by 1979.
F35 - October 2001 Selected and Funded - how many partly operational 2016 ???? - 15years.
Face the facts. No matter how effective the F35 ends up in 20?? its development has been a disaster.



Yeah sure compare development of three separate 5th gen aircraft to a single mission single service branch one that didn't even have a fraction of requirements JSF had. Why don't you compare F-22A to F-15A? Stupid Raptor took 20 years to develop and it's production run was limited because of crazy high price! Good thing this joke of a project was canned. Never mind the bloody thing decimates F-15Cs and other previous gen fighters in training... good riddance. USAF is better off without replacement for 40 y/o airframes!

If you ever bothered to look at the tendencies you'd see that every other next-gen fighter is 1) more capable 2) more expensive 3) longer to develop 4) has longer operational life than the previous gen fighter it's replacing; JSF fits in quite nicely into this row with the exception it is actually cheaper than most 4th/4.5th/4++/4+++++++ gen boutique fighters.

Let's make a fairer comparison: Harrier took 9 to 12 years to develop depending on what you consider programs starting point. Neither the original Harrier, nor it's latest iterations after decades of improvements get even close to the level of F-35B which IOCd 14 years after X-plane fly off. Soviet Yak STOVL planes were basically one continuous prototyping project that crumbled along with the Union. No other STOVL planes were ever marginally mass produced, many not even leaving the paper. F-16 was accepted into service on a very short notice, but also suffered many incidents and accidents (including fatal ones) including severe engine problems and mission system problems. Same for Hornet. Disaster.

F-35# is the second ever operational 5th gen fighter, it is right now and will be the most numerous 5th gen fighter, it is also the first and right now the only exported 5th gen fighter, first ever successful 5th gen fighter that can be operated from sea. It is the fighters that all other market participants are years behind in R&D, design and manufacture. That is a lot achievements for 15 years of disastrous development. Within those 15 years of disastrous development JSF yielded: state of the art 5th gen multirole fighter for all three services plus allied nations; significant improvement in capabilities compared to legacy aircraft at comparable price; advanced technological know how to levels never before achieved by any aerospace engineering; and most importantly landed me a sweet job shilling for LM.


rkap wrote:Airforces all around the world waiting and hoping and adopting interim replacements and upgrades.
Now finally facing reality we have the US Airforce and Navy in desperation buying or wanting to buy new 4th Gen or upgrade 4th Gen aircraft to fil the gap until 20??


Tell me right effing now what 4th gen fighter is US Air Force desperately trying to buy to "fill the gap"? Navy is not buying additional Super Hornets to "fill the gap", they buy planes to replace the ones their aviators crash land on a constant basis and airframes that were driven into the ground by 15 years of constant operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

rkap wrote:The US also considering two new CAS aircraft


IF they move past "considering" phase and actually do procure some sort of air vehicle to specifically do CAS, it will either be:
1) Super Tucano or some similar, half-assed COIN turboprop;
2) Weoponized T-X derivative with some APKWS and Hellfires, aka half-assed turbofan COIN plane;
3) Clean-sheet Super Warthog Thunderbolt III that has a 57mm Gatling and Abrams-level composite armor meant to go low and slow and eat up AAAin the face;
4) A new drone or an upgraded MQ-9 or nothing at all;

Let's make a deal: scenarios 1 and 2 are a draw because CAS =/= COIN. Scenario 3 yields you a PayPal transfer equal to the price of average international brand lager six-pack from me to you as well as proclamation of my wrongness written in bold; scenario 4 will mean you have to admit you were wrong publically somewhere on this forum. Bet valid until 00:00 GMT January 1st 2022.

rkap wrote:and upgrading and considering how to extend the life of the A10.


Because they made an unfortunate decision not to scrap A-10A when they should have back in 91'. And now they are stuck with the plane that is redundant and has no spares.

rkap wrote:Come 2040/50 and there still will be upgraded and new 4th Gen flying all around the world.


There are still some 3rd gen planes flying in combat operations too, you know.

rkap wrote:Since when was that the plan. The F35 was to replace them all.
So much for the predictions of the "Penthouse Dwellers."


JSF was supposed to 1) replace first and foremost USAF's F-16, also A-10 because it is redundant; partner nation's multirole fighters 2) replace F/A-18C/D in the US Navy. Never intended as immediate E/F and Growler replacement 3) replace F/A-18A/B and AV-8B Harrier II in USMC and add STOVL capability to partner nations who so desire. It is doing so, and hopefully will continue doing so. It was the plan since forever.

Lmao, people, are you plain simple dumbasses or do you get some kick out if pretending to be dumbasses? :doh:

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 13:15
by popcorn
hythelday wrote:
rkap wrote:Come 2040/50 and there still will be upgraded and new 4th Gen flying all around the world.


There are still some 3rd gen planes flying in combat operations too, you know.
[/quote]


Yes, and those 4Gen a/c in 2040/50 are going to be even less useful and effective than 3Gen jets in operation today.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 13:30
by sferrin
rkap wrote:
sferrin wrote:"The F-35 program has suffered several setbacks due to aircraft catching fire, though previous incidents involved the Air Force's F-35A conventional take-off and landing variant."

:roll: These "journalists" should really compare the F-35 to other aircraft at this point in their development. They would be surprised.


Yes! I agree. Journalists should compare the F-35 to other aircraft at similar periods in there development.
F15 - Dec 1969 Selected and Funded - operational 1976 - 7years - 384 built and operational by 1979.
F35 - October 2001 Selected and Funded - how many partly operational 2016 ???? - 15years. "


The P-80 went from contract award to first flight in 180 days. I guess the F-15 was a disaster. :roll: :doh:

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 14:02
by sprstdlyscottsmn
sferrin wrote:
rkap wrote:
sferrin wrote:"The F-35 program has suffered several setbacks due to aircraft catching fire, though previous incidents involved the Air Force's F-35A conventional take-off and landing variant."

:roll: These "journalists" should really compare the F-35 to other aircraft at this point in their development. They would be surprised.


Yes! I agree. Journalists should compare the F-35 to other aircraft at similar periods in there development.
F15 - Dec 1969 Selected and Funded - operational 1976 - 7years - 384 built and operational by 1979.
F35 - October 2001 Selected and Funded - how many partly operational 2016 ???? - 15years. "


The P-80 went from contract award to first flight in 180 days. I guess the F-15 was a disaster. :roll: :doh:

P-51, 44 days from bare floor to out the door.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2016, 14:09
by hornetfinn
SpudmanWP wrote:Move advanced fighters take longer to develop, especially in the middle of an economic downturn, than they did in the 1970s. Computers & advanced integrated avionics are a big chunk of that. Add that to the increased scrutiny & attention to detail that today's development entails and you begin to understand why it take this long.

Compare the F-35 to the F-22, Rafale, or Eurofighter and they all took just as long.


Exactly. How about Sukhoi Su-27? Development began in 1969 and it got officially operational in 1990, only after almost 21 years of development.... End result was a single-role fighter capable of only air-to-air combat. Talk about development disaster... PAK FA has not been developed at fast pace either by any means.

Re: Marine Corps F-35 Caught Fire During Training Flight

Unread postPosted: 11 Nov 2016, 17:40
by neptune
[quote="hornetfinn..... Talk about development disaster... PAK FA has not been developed at fast pace either by any means.[/quote] :twisted: