Top Gun movie - Jet wash/Flat spin

Military aircraft accidents/mishaps.
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falconfixer860261

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Unread post06 Jul 2005, 20:39

Maybe that loose seat killed Goose. Ever watched how much the seats are moving when they are yankin and bankin? Maybe the USN sets their seats on vibration mounts to ease the impact of hitting the carrier deck..... :D
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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 04:07

I think it was Igor from Eye of the Viper who went through the canopy in a T-38 because the matinence guy didnt secure the seat. He still flew it home though
3 rights make a left 2 wrights make an airplane
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LinkF16SimDude

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Unread post07 Jul 2005, 06:25

KickURanus wrote:
MikeMan wrote:4. Speed = life, so why slow down?



Something similar to that move is actually taught in top gun. It’s been used once in air to air. I can’t remember the specific details but I think (THINK) that a single Phantom was engaged with a MiG-23. They were trading advantages very often until the guy in the F-4 did something similar while he was inverted. I’m sure it was not as glorious as “fly right by” but he did get kill. If anyone can give a little more info or even correct mine that would be great.

I believe you're thinking of Duke Cunningham's aerial dual with a MiG-17(maybe a MiG-19?). It ended up being a long series of vertical scissors. As Cunningham described it, at what seemed to be the right moment he unloaded to 0 G and popped some flaps out and the MiG scooted right by, followed soon after by a Sidewinder up the kazoo.
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Ultima

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Unread post22 Jul 2005, 19:21

I listened to the commentary on the DVD version, and according to one of the people who had been a military advisor, the canopy thing was based on a real accident. Don't have the details handy though (getting ready to move).
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Kosmos

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Unread post22 Jul 2005, 20:38

Ultima: No matter what, you will NOT get killed from hitting the canopy. The seats are design like that... I checked the seat in a F-16 earlier this week, and the top of the seat was way above my helmet even on the ground. Furthermore I would get pushed even further down if I had to eject. Keep in mind that the whole thing is designed to go through the canopy in worst case.

There is actually a real story where a A-6 navigator (or what ever those guys are -not the pilot though!) was pushed halfway out through the canopy, and still made it home.

So you don't have to watch the canopy when you pull the handle :)
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MKopack

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Unread post22 Jul 2005, 21:13

I was also told a long time ago (Topgun timeframe) by a Tomcat crew that the incident in the movie was based on an actual event.

I agree that the top of an ejection seat does, in fact, protrude above the helmet level, although with an aircraft falling somewhat vertically and the canopy being blown off and in effect 'ascending' above you in relation to the aircraft, you could hit the canopy - and the canopy would not, in all likelyhood, be sitting in the same orientation as it was on the jet (it is blown off by rockets at the forward edge, so it would probably be tumbling). There is nothing directly above your helmet to protect it.

Just as a note, you can not eject through the canopy on the F-16, as you can on many Navy aircraft.

Mike
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56TTW/63TFTS 1987-1989
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Kosmos

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Unread post22 Jul 2005, 21:55

Mike: You have a good point here... Now this makes me wonder, if something goes wrong after pulling the handle, and the canopy dosn't blow off. According to our SUN guys (those guys in charge of our chutes, life support, and seats), the seat will stay in the aircraft. But let's say the seat still fires... Then what? My guess is that it will go through the canopy without any huge problems... I remember a few year ago when a bird came in through the canopy, the HUD, the helmet visor, and almost killed the pilot (he lost one of his eyes).
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TC

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Unread post23 Jul 2005, 04:55

If the canopy doesn't go in the Viper, the seat doesn't go. Now, if you can fight the more than likely out of control jet, get the canopy jettisoned, and then get the seat to go in time, you shouldn't have any problems! :D

BTW, the Eagle has a canopy breaker on the top of the seat. It'll go like a hot knife through butter through the canopy.

About the Top Gun ejection sequence: It was based on a flat spin mishap I believe at Pt. Mugu in 1979. Anyway, the canopy still had the short lanyard, and when it jettisoned, the crew reported that it seemed to float over their heads. This would have presented a danger had their seats not cleared.

They reported this, and the lanyards were extended to prevent this from happening again. Apparently, like the Viper, you can't go through the canopy in the Tomcat either.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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Kosmos

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Unread post24 Jul 2005, 20:04

My question here is what if??? Seat dosn't fire if the canopy is there... Okay... We had a F-35 that fired it's weapons although the master-switch was off. We had a ship that fired a missile although all systems were off. So let's just asume for a moment that I sit strapped in, and the seat suddenly fires... Then what? My guess is that I will go through the canopy in one piece.

I guess I will have to ask the SUN guys next week!
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TC

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Unread post26 Jul 2005, 03:28

I'd have to ask you what type a/c you were in. In the Viper, the seat absolutely will not go if the canopy is there. The canopy jettisoning is actually part of the ejection sequence.

Now, if you were in the F-15, going through the canopy would not matter. The canopy breaker will go through the glass with no problem, and you will never come in contact with any broken glass.

You also go through the canopy in the A-6, Harrier, and F-35. The Harrier and 35 both have canopy strip explosives that shatter the canopy just before your seat goes.

The Phantom had this nifty canopy knife that you could break the canopy with. The Martin Baker Mk.H5 seat also had a canopy interdictor pin that makes sure the seat waits until the canopy goes. If that pin is not present during the ejection sequence, the seat assumes the canopy is gone, and the seat goes. I'm almost certain you can go through the canopy if necessary in the F-4.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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Cylon

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Unread post26 Jul 2005, 04:44

I don't think I would like to "go through the canopy" in the Viper.... The Viper canopy (being one piece) is 4 times thicker than other fighter canopies.....

Cylon
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Kosmos

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Unread post26 Jul 2005, 21:58

Cylon: No doubt it's thick.. But if a bird could go through the canopy, I still belive I could :)

TC: I spoke to our SUN guys today, and they say the same as you...

But (and in worst care scenario) I still believe I could go through the canopy if only the seat fires (and I didn't start the ejection).

Oh well... Soon I will leave this job, hopefulle fly a nice airliner somewhere -and not worry about ejection seats ;)
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TC

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Unread post27 Jul 2005, 02:03

Coming from a short stint with Eagles, I asked the Viper egress guys the same thing when I was an FNG in Viper Life Support. They explained to me that going through the canopy in the Viper is impossible during ejection, because the Viper's ejection sequence was designed with the canopy jettisoning as one of the necessary components needed to make the seat ejection initiate.

If all else fails, you'd have to jettison the canopy manually, and then initiate the sequence. Either way, not my idea of good times, you know? :wink:

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
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MKopack

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Unread post27 Jul 2005, 11:13

Kosmos wrote:Cylon: No doubt it's thick.. But if a bird could go through the canopy, I still belive I could :)


Well if the only qualification was physically going through the canopy then yes, you probably would. Unfortunatly, (as evidenced by some particulary nasty 'remains' that I've removed) the birds generally don't fair well in the process. I wouldn't think that someone strapped to a rocket powered seat would do much better.

I believe that when an ejection is iniatiated and the canopy does not 'go', that the procedure calls for attempting to manually jettison the canopy. If that fails, unlock and attempt to open the canopy (when the leading edge comes up the airflow should finish the job). I believe that there is an injury concern here as manually jettisoning or opening the canopy would place the pilots arm and hand in an 'unsafe position' (being away from his body, reaching for the handle) because if ejection has been iniatiated the seat will go as soon as the canopy lanyard is pulled.

Mike
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56TTW/63TFTS 1987-1989
401TFW/614TFS 1989-1991
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avon1944

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Unread post17 Nov 2005, 08:34

Bwadwey wrote:In the scene when Maverick and Goose eject, what kind of problem were they in?


It was a flat spin Maverick had gottened in. When Iceman crossed Maverick's path the disturbance in airflow caused the right engine to quit.

An aircraft like a F-14, Mig.-29 or, Su-27 are more susceptible to this type of of problem. The aircraft with a designed with a "body effect" between the two engines has its engines far enough apart that a sudden loss of an engine (and other conditions being right), causes a loss of symetric thrust. This suposedly can cause the aircraft to spin around its center of gravity because the thrust from the remaining engine, will over power "rudder authority" and spin the aircraft.

Aircraft such as the F-4, F-15 or, F/A-18 have less problems this way for this particular type of problem, less leverage. A pilot can throw most any aircraft into a flat spin if they try.

Goose supposedly ejected into the canopy because the canopy when released floated upward instead of flying back as would happen in a large percentage of flights in which the pilot must eject.

Adrian
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