F-18 Shot down by Mig 25 or Mig 31?

Military aircraft accidents/mishaps.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

ACSheva

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 442
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2004, 04:48

Unread post24 Feb 2005, 03:30

ACSheva wrote

the investigation was done by "REAL NAVY INVESTIGATORS". They do know more than you, and I


Not trying to suck up here to anyone but... my last post was taken out of context. I never intended to put down anyones (TC) knowledge on this site.And what I wrote was said by real NAVY INVESTIGATORS, in the book. Surely they can be mistaken, but I'm gonna go with what they said. They gotta know more. I'm just an amateur here, who loves jets. Believe me.

And TC if I hurt you'r feelings, I'm extending you my heart felt apology publicly.

AC Sheva 05
Offline

TC

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 4004
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06

Unread post24 Feb 2005, 06:55

Oh no AC, no hurt feelings whatsoever. That's the point of this site. We tell each other things and we learn. I love nothing more than to pop open a beer and swap war stories with the guys...Well, I do love a blonde in my bed more than that, but that hasn't happened lately, so swapping war stories is fine until then. :wink:

The Navy took the "Pete Rose/Bart Giammatti" approach for their formal conclusion. Basically, they stated that they could find no conclusive evidence as to Option A, B, or C, concerning the mishap...you get the picture. It was a very gutless, and frustrating cop-out if you ask me.

Somebody up there has all the answers, even if it's only The Man Upstairs but the case of Scott Speicher will be tied up in bureaucratic red tape until probably well after any of us on this board are long gone. It's a pretty $hitty deal too, because the same thing happened with our MIAs in Vietnam. That's a big can of worms that I really don't want to open.

But I hope this thread has been useful to everybody. The final answer for our first poster? There really is no conclusive answer. Some say it was the MiG. Some say it was SAMs and/or AAA. Some say it was a mechanical failure. But, as I said a couple of posts up, there is really no sufficient evidence to point a finger one way or another. Some think they have the definitive answer, and they may be right, but who's to say? All I know is the water's wet, the sky is blue, and Elvis is NOT working in a Texas gas station.

So, for all you guys on this thread, no hard feelings whatsoever. Raise one for Spike, and all of our comrades still out there. :cheers: This Bud's For You! :beer:

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
Offline

KarimAbdoun

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 516
  • Joined: 30 Jan 2004, 19:47

Unread post03 Mar 2005, 11:10

All prayers for saving Spike, I don't drink beer so here a coke for you man! :pint: ,there has been many flights reported of Iraqi MiG-29s and 25s flying in 1991 and even just before the recent Iraq War, a MiG-25 scored a kill against a predator UAV before the Iraq War marking the first manned air-air strike on a UAV.
The fighter is not what counts, it's the one who's flying it that matters!
Offline

FutureFlyer06

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 67
  • Joined: 08 Jun 2004, 06:08
  • Location: Tucson, AZ

Unread post13 Mar 2005, 03:57

Alright, to begin, I'm not at all an expert, that's for sure. But here's my two cents:

I saw the special on Lt. Cmdr. Speicher when it came out on 60 minutes I think. I do have a little bit of background information (not as much as everyone else does though, obviously). It does seem somewhat odd to me that with the innumerable amount of aircraft we had going in that night that none of them, or an AWACS for that matter, failed to detect that MiG. But assuming there was one in the area, if it did indeed fire at Speicher, I'm sure he was unaware of it and in a bad position. He had received numerous awards for his pilot skills, and according to his colleagues he was extremely good (keep in mind the fact that Iraqi pilots suck). So, if a MiG did indeed shoot him down, it was surely just a lucky shot on the part of that MiG pilot. I highly doubt that Speicher was aware of it because if he were he would have made some sort of call to let his wingmen know about it. So my opinion was that it was most likely a SAM that got him. As to his whereabouts, it is impossible to know. According to the report that I was watching, the Iraqis had some pictures of his flight suit by the jet. And it would indeed be odd for a pilot to completely take off his flight suit when shot down. If he is still alive then I hope he is well and if he is not then I hope that he may be with God.
Offline

TC

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 4004
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06

Unread post17 Mar 2005, 05:39

A couple points to make:

1) The MiG was detected, but the d*ckhead controller in the AWACS would not confirm the MiG as a bandit. No doubt the MiG took a shot, but the mishap investigation crew found no evidence of a missile hit.

Make of that what you will.

2) The Iraqi pilots do not suck. They were highly trained and did well against the Iranians. I was talking to Chuck Horner about his opinion on the Iraqi pilots awhile back, and he said the Iraqis were great pilots. It was just the way they employed their tactics against American pilots that was the problem. So, compared to the U.S. or the Israelis, yeah, they aren't as good, but I'm willing to bet they are on par with many of our NATO allies.

Would loved to have seen them actually try to compete in OIF. Our boys deserved some more A2A kills. :D

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!
Offline

ACSheva

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 442
  • Joined: 25 Dec 2004, 04:48

Unread post12 Aug 2005, 01:47

According to Spikes C/O Mike Anderson, the Mig 25 was what brought Spikes jet down. Its very sad that Spike was never saved, every time I think about him I get sad. What a sad story. What a great American.

Does any one know how his kids/family are doing?

Shev
Offline

TenguNoHi

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 920
  • Joined: 29 Sep 2004, 04:24

Unread post12 Aug 2005, 02:45

You guys argue like a married couple :roll: (TC and ACSheva)

I personally support a Mig-25 kill. The laundary list of most the reasons already exhist in this thread so I wont bother giving mine.

-Aaron
Offline

avon1944

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 404
  • Joined: 24 Nov 2004, 02:03

Unread post10 Nov 2005, 07:39

There is a lot of information floating around including some conspiracy theories on this topic.

Some facts are when the F/A-18C was shot down were;
1) The ESM of the AWACS and E-2C both detect a lock-on signal from the direction of the MiG.-25PD. The signal was not that of a western type radar.
2) The AWACS and E-2C both sent warnings to the flight of four F/A-18's but there was no follow up.
3) The F/A-18C's RWR went on for a few seconds before Lt Speicher's air craft was hit by a missile.
4) The MiG.-25PD approached the F/A-18 flight about sixty degrees of their course but it then passed behind them. A short time later the MiG did around a three hundred degree turn which them placed it behind by many miles.
(My speculation -the MiG pilot used his radar briefly to get an exact position. Then used his IRST system to maintain position of his target. The missile could be fired on this data.)
5) There were no SAM sites (fixed or mobile) in that area.
6) The Iraqis have returned Lt Speicher's "personal effects" but, no explanation of the absence of his body. His ejection seat was found about a mile from the rest of the wreckage.

A friend of mine who is one of the moderators of the ACIG website has interviewed an Iraqi pilot after PGW#1 (for the book, ""Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat", by Tom Cooper and Farzad Bishop, from Osprey's Combat Aircraft series"). This fighter pilot said the Iraqi pilots did not officially claim any kills during even though the US Navy acknowledges the lost of an aircraft to another aircraft.
The MiG. pilot probably broke hard right after he fired the missile and could not see or confirm the kill. He went on to state that moral was extremely low after the war and their lack of effectiveness.
It was a very bad night for the Iraqi AF. The lost of two aircraft in a fratricide incident and other aircraft being shot down by Coalition aircraft. Iraqi pilots thought they were fairly competent after eight plus years of war with Iran.

To my knowledge, the MiG.-31 was not on Iraq's order of battle.

Adrian
Offline

johnqhitman

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 108
  • Joined: 26 Oct 2005, 16:56

Unread post11 Nov 2005, 01:44

The bad thing is that Speicher might have survived the shoot down.
Offline

TC

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 4004
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06

Unread post11 Nov 2005, 05:31

There is evidence that he had been held somewhere in Iraq. Our POWs from OIF reported being in a holding cell, and seeing writing on the wall of the cell that could be traced to Scott Speicher. Bad part about it is that now that we've over-publicized the incident, they very likely could have killed him, and buried him in the middle of the desert somewhere.

I'll add something to what avon posted: the AWACS controller would not confirm any bandits in the Hornets' area as hostile, and would not clear the Hornets to fire. I'll refrain from saying what I really want to say concerning that matter.

I'm fairly certain he is dead, but dead or alive, I hope they can find him.

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.
Offline

elp

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3143
  • Joined: 23 Sep 2003, 20:08

Unread post14 Nov 2005, 15:37

The MiG-25 as the shooter was a valid possible source of the kill as the SAM hit couldn't be absolutely confirmed for a long time even though it is probably what got him. There was a visual on a MiG-25 in the area. Having said all that. After the 2003 war, there were no Iraqi pilots that said it was a MiG-25 that shot him down. The ones interviewed would have known. So.... most likely, it was a SAM for sure.
- ELP -
Offline

johnqhitman

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 108
  • Joined: 26 Oct 2005, 16:56

Unread post14 Nov 2005, 18:01

Visual! i heard that mig flew less than a hundred feet right over the top of another Coalition aircraft, afterburner on full.
Offline

TC

F-16.net Moderator

F-16.net Moderator

  • Posts: 4004
  • Joined: 14 Jan 2004, 07:06

Unread post15 Nov 2005, 02:07

That's pushing the realm of plausibility. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't even think that the moron in the AWACS would have let a plane coming from a different direction, towards the strike force, with an IFF squawk that did not match, get that close to our jets. If he did, he should be court-martialed.

AWACS controllers made a couple of high-profile tragic errors in Desert Storm. Thankfully, procedures have been augmented to prevent some of those same mistakes from being made again.

Scott Speicher's shoot down may be credited to a MiG, but it has never been proven, and there has been some good evidence just on this thread to debunk the MiG theory. Not saying it is completely wrong, however, I'm with ELP. It very likely could have been a small, hand-held SAM, not a SAM site that got him.

Either way, as I said before, I just hope we can find him. Dead or alive, his family needs something.

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.
Offline

avon1944

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 404
  • Joined: 24 Nov 2004, 02:03

Unread post17 Nov 2005, 07:12

TC wrote:There is evidence that he had been held somewhere in Iraq

Yes, the Iraqi Government gave the US his personal effects but, with no explaination as to where or what happened to his body.

the AWACS controller would not confirm any bandits in the Hornets' area as hostile, and would not clear the Hornets to fire

AWACS and the E-2 both issued warning but did not follow up. I have read that AWACS was trying to get some F-15's to deal with the MiG.
After this incident, the Navy announced that the E-2C would have final authority over Navy aircraft.

elp wrote:There was a visual on a MiG-25 in the area

At two AM local time??

there were no Iraqi pilots that said it was a MiG-25 that shot him down

This is another disputed kill, except the roles are reversed. The AWACS ESM gear did detect the radar lock-on briefly before Speicher's plane was hit. His flight mates also reported their RWR alerted them also, briefly

So.... most likely, it was a SAM for sure

There was no SAM site in that area of which AWACS detected but it did detect the MiG.-25's radar. I don't know what altitude they were flying at but, I was under the impression he was above 20,000 feet.


johnqhitman wrote:Visual! i heard that mig flew less than a hundred feet right over the top of another Coalition aircraft, afterburner on full.

The MiG.-25PD approached the Hornets from an angle that was beyond what their radar could search for. Both AWACS and E-2C more or less reduced the threat when they saw the MiG was going to pass behind the Hornets.

Adrian
Offline

AfterburnerDecalsScott

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1255
  • Joined: 10 May 2005, 18:45

Unread post11 Feb 2006, 05:45

Well, Spock Anderson thinks it was a MiG-25. AWACS definately had a track, and Spock had it locked up....so something was there. Nobody in the strike package recorded an SA-6 launch. Spock knows he had a MiG locked up, and knows Speicher went down shortly thereafter. The rest is speculative, but his is the best account.
PreviousNext

Return to Mishaps

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests