Kadena F-15 that crashed June 2018 was dogfighting with F-22

Military aircraft accidents/mishaps.
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marsavian

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Unread post26 Apr 2019, 13:00

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/kadena- ... h-an-f-22/

https://media.defense.gov/2019/Apr/23/2 ... REPORT.PDF

The mishap pilot (MP) was flying as lead of a two-ship formation during a dissimilar basic fighter maneuver (BFM) sortie with an F-22A, assigned to the 525th Fighter Squadron. While maneuvering defensively in relationship to the Mishap Wingman (MW), at approximately 5,400 feet mean sea level (MSL) and 180 knots indicated airspeed (KIAS), the MP initiated a vertical climb to 65 degrees nose high, 20 degrees of right bank, 39 degrees Angle-of-Attack (AOA), and 1.2 Gs, which apexed near 6,300 feet MSL and 105 KIAS, before a significant nose drop occurred.

The MP perceived the mishap aircraft (MA) was not tracking as desired and initiated an unload of approximately one fist-width’s forward stick with full right rudder. The nose pitched down and to the right to 65 degrees nose low, 110 degrees of right bank, -26 degrees AOA and G forces decreasing from 1.2 to -0.3 Gs. With right rudder still commanded, the MA experienced a negative G departure from controlled flight with a snap roll entry to the left that transitioned to an inverted, negative G spin. The MP received no indications of hydraulic, electrical, fuel, engine, structural, or flight control system malfunctions. The MP was unable to recover the MA and ejected at approximately 1,100 feet MSL.

The Accident Investigation Board (AIB) president found by a preponderance of the evidence that the cause of the mishap was pilot error, which resulted in a negative G departure from controlled flight due to the coupling of aerodynamic forces of yaw and roll.

Additionally, the AIB president found by a preponderance of the evidence that spatial disorientation, lack of emergency procedure training for negative G departures from controlled flight, and limited time to analyze the situation and recover were substantially contributing factors to the mishap.

Following this incident, the 18th Operations Group adjusted training standards to allow for increased decision time for pilots experiencing similar situations. Also, training and evaluation requirements have been increased on advanced aircraft handling characteristics.
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outlaw162

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Unread post26 Apr 2019, 22:50

If he had received his spin training in the T-37, i.e. both upright and inverted spins as well as transition between the two types.....he might have known better.

Also, most prudent pilots tended to avoid risky last ditch maneuvers in training....ROE generally precluded the extreme ones anyway.....pride did not.

edit: 5400'/180kts :shock:
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post26 Apr 2019, 23:02

does this make a maneuver kill for the F-22? And this is the F-15 we are talking about.
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outlaw162

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Unread post26 Apr 2019, 23:17

It might be considered a bit insensitive to paint an Eagle silhouette on the Raptor. :D

Although I believe at least one of the two Guard A-7 units that put 2 of our Phantoms out of control in training accidents painted an F-4 on their lowly A-7.....tacky.
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quicksilver

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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 04:18

Sounds like the MP shoulda terminated the engagement for ‘low and slow’ (below the soft deck) before the departure occurred...
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quicksilver

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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 10:58

“...most prudent pilots [tend to] avoid risky last ditch maneuvers in training.”

Amen. Just above the hard deck at 105 kias and 40 alpha...

“What was I thinking...”
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gc

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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 12:00

“Figure 4.1 High Aspect BFM Setup (Tab BB-238)
At 0614L the MP and MW achieved a slant range of approximately five nautical miles (NM) and began the engagement with the MP making the radio call “MW, turn in, fights on” (Tab N-2). The first merge was a left-to-left pass between 17,000 feet and 18,000 feet MSL (Tab V-2.5). The MP and MW both executed a two circle left turning, descending fight with multiple merges, during which the MP took several simulated missile shots at the MW’s aircraft (Tab V-2.5 and V-2.6).”

Surprised me that the F-15 was able to take a few missile shots in a neutral BFM set up.

“approximately 7,000 feet MSL, the MP and MW again merged left-to-left (Tab R-3). The MW began to gain an offensive advantage by tightening the turn and bringing the nose of MW’s aircraft towards the MA as the MA continued in a left hand turn (Tab R-3). As the MW attempted to establish lead pursuit for simulated air-to-air weapons employment, the MW observed the MA execute a level reversal from left to right in a defensive maneuver (Tab R-3 and Tab V-2.7 and Tab BB-237).”

Eventually the Raptor’s superior performance allowed it to pull ahead.

This shows that Rafale and Typhoon flyers should not get too excited getting a few shots off at the Raptors. Does not mean anything. The Raptor will eventually eat you up. And training set ups are designed to provide learning opportunities and does not reflect what happens in war.
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outlaw162

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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 18:51

...initiated an unload of approximately one fist-width’s forward stick with full right rudder.


This makes me think there is potential here for a movie to compete with Top Gun 2.....a 3 part saga along the lines of the spaghetti westerns:

The Good, the Bad, and the Stupid.....A Fistful of Forward Stick.....and For a Few Knots More
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post27 Apr 2019, 20:20

Hahahahahaha, that was an honest belly laugh in public.
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madrat

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Unread post28 Apr 2019, 02:50

outlaw162 wrote:The Good, the Bad, and the Stupid.....A Fistful of Forward Stick.....and For a Few Knots More


I think you have them out of order.

Start with F-16 in "A Twist Full of Dollars"

Punctuate it with the F-15 in "For A Few Mil More"

Proceed to the prequel of "The Good, the Bad, and the Double-Ugly".

I'm not sure you could get much thrills on the screen going 50:1 with the F-22A. You could use all sorts of Speghetti Western theme spinoffs like "The Great(est) Silence", "Run, Sukhoi, Run", "Vengeance Is a MiG Served Cold", "Dead Yaks Don't Count", "Once Upon a Time in the Best", "God Forgives... AMRAAM Don't!", or "A Minute to Pray, a Millisecond to Die". But they would all basically be void of any bad guy development because they would all die so quick...
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krieger22

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Unread post28 Apr 2019, 13:13



Don't need development if you can make their first impressions extremely memorable...

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