164-1 F-14 kill ratio claim?

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tomcooper

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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 07:44

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
(Particularly the MiG-21-related science fiction... with exception of Khafaji, of course - though he didn't get decorated for claiming an F-14: that's a product of your imagination.)

My imagination?
...sigh... certainly not mine.

... this is one of the most popular air to air engagements happened during Iraq-Iran war, when Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 67 Sq who climb from low altitude and behind the Iranian F-14's to shot it down near Zubaydat area 100 km north east Amarah city.
...from No. 47 Squadron (there was no No. 67, or at least no 'No. 67 Squadron equipped with MiG-21s') and seems they all got so excited they misidentified a pair of F-4s for an F-14... (would make up for the correct number of fins they saw)...

For this incident held a press conference showed on Baghdad TV, followed by Capt. Hassan Bashir victory.
Press-conference is no evidence for a kill.

...anyway, much more important questions are such like:

- When (date) should have Sebti claimed his F-14 kill?

- When (date) should have Nawfal scored his F-14 kill?

- Where did Nawfal serve (i.e. what did he fly) before joining No. 73 Squadron?

- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

- Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji?
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 17:37

tomcooper wrote:from No. 47 Squadron (there was no No. 67, or at least no 'No. 67 Squadron equipped with MiG-21s') and seems they all got so excited they misidentified a pair of F-4s for an F-14... (would make up for the correct number of fins they saw)


My fault i typing 67 (apology) 67 Squadron belong to MIG-23s Nasiriyah AB, Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 17 Squadron MIG-21MF Abu Ubaidah Airbase (deployed in 1978 till 1983 they moved to H3).
tomcooper wrote:Press-conference is no evidence for a kill.

They did show the MIG-21 gunsight firing the F-14 to the Journalists some of them was Spanish (hopefully anyone of them if still alive till this day can show this picture).

tomcooper wrote:...anyway, much more important questions are such like:

- When (date) should have Sebti claimed his F-14 kill?

I have to check with them.

tomcooper wrote:- When (date) should have Nawfal scored his F-14 kill?

- Where did Nawfal serve (i.e. what did he fly) before joining No. 73 Squadron?

- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)


11 Sept 1983 At 7:00 AM they moved from Nasiriyah AB to Shaibah AB and stand by there till 9:00 AM when the strike aircraft (x4 Su-22s) took-off to attack their target at Bandar Ganaveh, these MIG-23MFs lead by Capt.Najim aldean Shabib and Capt.Nawfal Shaaban took-off right behind them to escort the strike package from x4 Iranian F-14's were patrolling the area from time to time between Bahregan and Kharg Island and Bandar Ganaveh. The MIG-23's separate the F-14s patrol and engage with it and brought one down using R23R missile.
This incident also reported in one of the Air Defense Journal (and confirmed both Iranian pilots KIA).
-Capt.Nawfal Shaaban was MIG-21 and MIG-23MF and then ML (that's why my first though he achieved this victory on ML).
-Other details on him cannot be on public for some reason.

tomcooper wrote:- Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji?

If you mean relatives "no they are not". But Khaffaji is clan title you may find many people have the same title such as al-Tikriti, for example,
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 18:53

tomcooper wrote:- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

The list above for people i know for sure who received Medal of Courage achieving for this victory.

-Regarding to the AN-2 on 25 August 1980 Major General Alwan al-Abousi confirmed that the plane forced to land in Iran by Iranian AF (the plan was civilian under registration S/N YI-AIQ belong to Skydive "Sport Parachute Club") later all the skydivers with the plan released and back to Iraq.
-On 19 Sept 1980 Major. Nubar Abdul Hamid al-Hamdani Squadron leader of 44Sq Su-22 Kirkuk AB assigned in recon mission over Serpil Zahab ( being shot down by anti-aircraft guns).
-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron, Shuaiba AB x4 Su-22s assigned in mission to attack Bandar Khomeini, the formation intercepted by two Iranian F-14's (the formation lead by No1. Major Faisal Habbo, No.2 First Lieutenant. Sabah Saad Hussein Al-Jader, No.3 Capt. Miesar Asuad Farhan, No.4 First Lieutenant. Naji Ahmed Abd) the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile and chased the remaining Su-22s till Al-Faw city causing damage in gun fire to the formation leader aircraft. No2 and No4 eject safely and captured by Iranian and appeared on Iranian television but they died because of torture..
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 18:57

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
tomcooper wrote:- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

The list above for people i know for sure who received Medal of Courage achieving for this victory.

-Regarding to the AN-2 on 25 August 1980 Major General Alwan al-Abousi confirmed that the plane forced to land in Iran by Iranian AF (the plan was civilian under registration S/N YI-AIQ belong to Skydive "Sport Parachute Club") later all the skydivers with the plan released and back to Iraq.
-On 19 Sept 1980 Major. Nubar Abdul Hamid al-Hamdani Squadron leader of 44Sq Su-22 Kirkuk AB assigned in recon mission over Serpil Zahab ( being shot down by anti-aircraft guns).
-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron, Shuaiba AB x4 Su-22s assigned in mission to attack Bandar Khomeini, the formation intercepted by two Iranian F-14's (the formation lead by No1. Major Faisal Habbo, No.2 First Lieutenant. Sabah Saad Hussein Al-Jader, No.3 Capt. Miesar Asuad Farhan, No.4 First Lieutenant. Naji Ahmed Abd) the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile and chased the remaining Su-22s till Al-Faw city causing damage in gun fire to the formation leader aircraft. No2 and No4 eject safely and captured by Iranian and appeared on Iranian television but they died because of torture..

I was searching for this Su-22 mission since 1 week but you finally reveal it
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 22:40

Now lookie here: this is getting really interesting... finally...

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:My fault i typing 67 (apology) 67 Squadron belong to MIG-23s Nasiriyah AB, Major Aladdin al-Khafaji and Capt Ismail Al-Naqeeb from 17 Squadron MIG-21MF Abu Ubaidah Airbase (deployed in 1978 till 1983 they moved to H3).
No. 17 Squadron was an OCU equipped with older variants, such like FLs, PFMs, F-13s, and UMs. It was actually re-activated during preparations for invasion of Iran, with the purpose of protecting Air Academy AB (Tikrit).


Iraqi MiG-21MFs were delivered in period 1971-1973; few were lost in war with Israel in 1973, few in war with Kurds in 1974-1975, few in war with Iran, and - generally - the entire fleet was quite worn-out by 1980. I.e. this variant was too 'rare' to enable re-armament of No. 17 Sqn.

With other words: I doubt an-Naqeeb flew a MF on that occassion. Or if: then he didn't serve with No. 17 Squadron.

Actually, given the base from which he started and area of engagement you mentioned, I would say he flew MiG-21bis' with No. 14 Squadron.

That was a little-known (or at least 'largely forgotten') unit even within the IrAF: it was originally established on MiG-21PFms in 1969, but apparently disbanded sometimes around 1973. Re-established in early 1980, it was equipped with brand-new MiG-21bis', based at Abu Ubaida AB, and disbanded again in 1982 or 1983.

tomcooper wrote:Press-conference is no evidence for a kill.

They did show the MIG-21 gunsight firing the F-14 to the Journalists some of them was Spanish (hopefully anyone of them if still alive till this day can show this picture).
I've heard of that 'famous gun-camera film', but no IRIAF F-14 was lost in combat by the date of that conference (December 1980).

So, on what date should he have claimed this F-14?

tomcooper wrote:- When (date) should have Nawfal scored his F-14 kill?
- Where did Nawfal serve (i.e. what did he fly) before joining No. 73 Squadron?

-Capt.Nawfal Shaaban was MIG-21 and MIG-23MF and then ML (that's why my first though he achieved this victory on ML).
-Other details on him cannot be on public for some reason.
Well, there are a few good reasons why you should try to learn more about this gentleman. Primary is that he was trully one of best IrAF fighter pilots ever (and then one not bull-shitting around about his supposed achievements).

Nawfal flew MiG-21bis with No. 47 Squadron, early during the war. Between others, he should've been No. 1 to 1st Lt Abdullah Lau'aybi during a quite famous air combat with F-5s over Suleimaniyah, on 26 October 1980, during which he was fighting calibres like Ardestani and Sharifi-Raad... (which is another story people like you say you are should actually know about).

Indeed: various of Nawfal's achievements were reason for creation of that 'Muhammed Sky Falcon whatever' legend...

11 Sept 1983....
Don't recall any IRIAF F-14-losses around that date, but I'll check with my notes.

tomcooper wrote:- Was Alladdin Khaffaji related to Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji?

If you mean relatives "no they are not". But Khaffaji is clan title you may find many people have the same title such as al-Tikriti, for example,
Kind of pity... but OK.

And otherwise, Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji rings no bells in Iraq any more...?

If so, sigh... man-oh-man: it's gentlemen like Nawfal and Khaffaji you should be boasting about here, because it was people like them that were making IrAF a proud service...
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 23:08

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:
tomcooper wrote:- Why is the second F-14 kill scored by MiG-23MLs not on that list...? (Mind: I'm not counting the downing of defecting F-14 as 'combat'.)

The list above for people i know for sure who received Medal of Courage achieving for this victory.

-Regarding to the AN-2 on 25 August 1980 Major General Alwan al-Abousi confirmed that the plane forced to land in Iran by Iranian AF (the plan was civilian under registration S/N YI-AIQ belong to Skydive "Sport Parachute Club") later all the skydivers with the plan released and back to Iraq.
...together with few 20mm holes - 'for improved airconditioning', I guess...

-On 19 Sept 1980 Major. Nubar Abdul Hamid al-Hamdani Squadron leader of 44Sq Su-22 Kirkuk AB assigned in recon mission over Serpil Zahab ( being shot down by anti-aircraft guns).
Yup, a well-known case, but not the one from two days earlier, which I was talking about.

Mind: Rahman flew Su-20Ms with No. 109 Squadron; Hamadani flew Su-22Ms with No. 44 Squadron...

-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron,
... the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile...

It might sound weird, and is certainly 'news' for many, but Iranian F-14s had no 'heat-seking missiles' as of 1980. They were delivered (in period 1976-1978, i.e. very shortly before the war) together with AIM-54s and M61A-1 Vulcan cannons only: Iranians intended to arm them with AIM-9Ls and AIM-7Fs at a latter date, but these were never delivered - because of 'revolution'...

So, for the first six months of the war, and until IRIAF ground technicians adapted AIM-9Js and AIM-7Es on them, they went into combat armed with AIM-54s and M61s only.

...which in turn was the reason why Reza Moradi - IRIAF F-14-pilot that flew his Tomcat into Iraq, in 1986 (only to get shot down by 'Medal of Courage' receiver name of whom is whitheld) - had it as easy to convince the IrAF Intelligence Department that Iranian Tomcats would be 'incompatible' with AIM-7s and AIM-9s: the manual he brought with him wasn't mentioning any Sparrows or Sidewinders...

...just another piece of the giant puzzle known as 'the legend of 'non-operational Iranian F-14s'...
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Unread post13 Sep 2015, 23:32

Lt. Abdullala Luaybi ... The one who smashed his MiG-21 to Iranian F-5 ? Its famous story ... I think there is a statue for him in Baghdad ... I don't know if it still there or not
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Unread post14 Sep 2015, 01:06

That's at least the Iraqi version. Iranians admitted 2 F-5Es (both from TFB.2) lost that day, but deny any were shot down in air combat.

Lua'ybi's sculpture was subsequently positioned in front of the IrAF HQ in Baghdad (also no clue if it's still there); years later it was 'decorated' with wreckage of Moradi's F-14...
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Unread post14 Sep 2015, 13:17

tomcooper wrote:
oldiaf wrote:
nikolaos wrote:Oldiaf can you be more specific about this interception? Can you give more details?

...I think it was Hazin... or was it Ghanei...? - who flew the last F-14 shot down by Iraqis...

IIRC it was Capt. Bahram Ghanei.
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Unread post14 Sep 2015, 15:48

old.iraqi.air.force wrote:11 Sept 1983....The MIG-23's separate the F-14s patrol and engage with it and brought one down using R23R missile.

No F-14 was lost on that date (that's 100% sure), which is no surprise: R-23 was a terrible weapon ('on pair' only with earlier R-3S, usually described as 'junk' by most of pilots).

milos984 wrote:IIRC it was Capt. Bahram Ghanei.
Yes, thanks: Bahram Ghanei (or Qane'ei) with RIO Gholam-REza Asle-Davtalab. Ghanei was recovered, his RIO was KIA. They were 'that' second kill by MiG-23MLs... (and also the last combat loss of an IRIAF Tomcats during that war).


Anyway, re. Kamil Sultan al-Khaffaji - and 'why is he important': Kamil was a youngster MiG-21FL/PFM pilot with No. 9 Squadron when that unit deployed to Syria, on 7 October 1973. He converted to MiG-21s barely a year earlier, but was such a good pilot, his unit CO appointed him a section-leader. Now, it's truth that Khaffaji - quite unsurprisingly (because of the poor weapons system of the MiG-21) - was shot down in his first air combat: that was a multi-bogey clash between 4-6 MiG-21s and a simialr number of Israeli Phantoms NE of Damascus, already the same day (i.e. only few hours after No. 9 Squadron arrived in Syria).

But, Khaffaji didn't complain, didn't ask for leave or else: he went straight back into action. Two days later, he was with a formation that clashed with Mirages over the Israeli-occuppied Golan Heights: he scored a confirmed kill (one of very few even Israelis are ready to admit), but sadly, was shot down and KIA shortly after (full story with details, photos etc., Arab MiGs Volume 5).
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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 06:55

[/quote]
-One 29 Sept 1980, 109 Squadron, Shuaiba AB x4 Su-22s assigned in mission to attack Bandar Khomeini, the formation intercepted by two Iranian F-14's (the formation lead by No1. Major Faisal Habbo, No.2 First Lieutenant. Sabah Saad Hussein Al-Jader, No.3 Capt. Miesar Asuad Farhan, No.4 First Lieutenant. Naji Ahmed Abd) the F-14 shot down No.2 and No.4 by heat seeking missile and chased the remaining Su-22s till Al-Faw city causing damage in gun fire to the formation leader aircraft. No2 and No4 eject safely and captured by Iranian and appeared on Iranian television but they died because of torture..[/quote]
I was searching for this Su-22 mission since 1 week but you finally reveal it[/quote]

How many SU-22s Iraqis lost during the war with Iraq? I see that they were used heavily and they were the workhorse of Iraqi Air force when comes to bombing and strike missions.
Torturing POWs is against the Geneva Convention, how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?
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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 07:06

nikolaos wrote:How many SU-22s Iraqis lost during the war with Iraq?
Around 70. Particularly Su-22Ms of No.109 Squadron suffered badly: only 2 of them were left by the end of war (and even these were dumped at the junkyard of Tammouz AB).

Torturing POWs is against the Geneva Convention, how Iraqis concluded that their pilots died because of tortures?
...considering how poor was their intel: heaven only knows how did they come to that conclusion...

About 'torture of POWs': generally, neither captured Iranian nor captured Iraqi pilots were 'tortured' - at least not under interrogation. Both sides knew much too good that they are a precious source of intel (at least 'usually'), and thus took great care to get them alive.

But...

Several Iranian pilots were lynched by the mob and one publicly hung in Basrah. One Iraqi pilot was lynched by mob (in Arak, which is why Iraqis then heavily bombed that city, killing hundreds of civilians), one or two others murdered by IRGC thugs.

In essence, and as usually, crucial were the first 5-10 minutes after a downed pilot was captured. If he came down near civilians or troops he just bombed... well, it was often hard for local civilian authorities or military commanders from either side to keep angry people or even military troops under control.
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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 10:13

Iran as I remember claimed 42 Su-22 shut downed by Fighters ... Iraq claims only 29 for all combat reasons ... Not counting accidents in training or any non combat flying .. I will try to list all Su-20/22 crashes I know about.
Last edited by oldiaf on 15 Sep 2015, 11:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 11:12

Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...

Major Sabah Abdulqadir
Huker Hunter pilot shut downed by F-4 Phantom over Shah Abad airport in 1980 ... Squadron 6 Rasheed Airbase .. Was in formation of 4 aircrafts but 2 of them aborted and returned to base ... Later the 2 remaining were attacked by 4 F-4s and he was hit and ejected .. he was officially listed as killed by ground troops

Lt. Yunis Motar
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB ...was in CAS mission with other 3 pilots on March 29 1988 .. His Aircraft hit ( unknown by what ) .. Ejected and Iranian troops rushed to him and fired on him so he returned fire with his pistol but he was killed.

For the pilots died in prisons :
Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi ... also Mirage F.1EQ pilot from squadron 91 Abu Ubaida base shut downed over the southern battle field in 1987.... Iran offered to exchange him with anti-regim group probably Mujahidi Khalq but this was refused ... Never heard about him after ... Presumed dead.

Lt. Ali Hameed Aljubori
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wheda AB ..( unknown by what ) Jan 15 1988 over the city of Mot / northern sector ... POW
according to other Pilot from same squadron he was also POW and released after the war ... Died in prison.

Pilot unknown wether in prison or by ground troops
Lt. Ameer Mohammed Mahmood shutdowned
Su-22 Squadron 109 Wehda AB was in a mission as No.2 with other Su-22 to attack Shaikh Bdeer camp Oct. 25 1980 but his
aircraft hit the high tension wires while on low flying and had to eject ... No.1 Lt. Mohammed Salman Mohammed saw the Iranian cars rush to him ... Unknown fate wether he was killed on impact or killed by troops or died in prison.

Those who I know about them ... Other pilots unknown fate probably died on impact and Iran never reported their fate....
For examples :
Captain Najdat Ismael Haqi
Su-7 Squadron 8 Abu ubaida AB 1980.... Shutdowned ( unknown cause ) over Saif Saad region ... Unknown fate ... Presumed dead.
Lt. Abdulah Jasim
Su-22 Squadron 5 Wehda AB ... May 2 1982 ....shut downed ( unknown cause ) over Kharomshahr city .. He was No.2 in formation of 2 ...Unknown fate.. Presumed dead
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Lt. Qusay Salih Alazawi
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Lt. Yunis Motar
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Lt. Ali Hameed Aljoburi
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Unread post15 Sep 2015, 12:55

oldiaf wrote:Lt. Jamal Najah Fakhri Alshaikhli from squadron 91 -Mirage F.1EQ Pilot- Abu Ubaida base was shut downed over the city of Arak , he was in a mission with 3 other Mirages to bomb Arak Aluminium factory in 1986 but I don't remember the date ... Dragged in streets by local mobs and killed ...
...summer 1985 or 1986; I'm searching for the correct date too.

(There was some confusion over this issue, then the aircraft in question was claimed by Iranians as MiG-25RB.)

Anyway: some of their bombs hit the centre of Arak, and when ash-Shaikhili came down (quite close to where his bombs have 'hit'), enraged mob lynched him before any police officers could get him... (not that the policemen would've had any chance of getting him at all).

It's no excuse, but that's a 'little bit different' to Iraqi military capturing, and then publicly hanging an IRIAF pilot as 'aerial bandit' - like Iraqis did in Basrah...

The rest of your list is listing what were either pilots KIA while resisting capture on the ground, or are actually 'MIAs': 'missing in action'. Not only Iraqis, but not even Iranians know what exactly happened with most of them. Few of these cases are related to AIM-54-strikes: when one of these scored a direct hit, it usually went for the cockpit (highest radar-cross-section at the front top side of the aircraft) - and there was nothing left to identify.

Finally: there were 3-4 cases of Iraqi POW-pilots 'changing sides', so to say. I.e. they 'disappeared' from POW-camps, and then re-appeared years later (one was even assigned the post of an Iraqi ambassador abroad, sometimes in 2006 or so).
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