Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert Storm

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2020, 03:52
by edpop

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2020, 15:02
by mixelflick
edpop wrote:https://www.dstorm.eu/pages/loadout/f-4.html


I saw a lot of Phantoms back in my day (1980's). Never saw a USAF Phantom without the wing tanks. Very much liked the semi-recesses fuselage stations for Sparrow's and jammer pods. The belly was usually empty, but occasionally you'd see a belly tank too. I saw a belly tank only once (see below), that seemed to be more of a Navy thing?

Only USAF Phantoms I saw with a belly tank were wild weasels, where they carried 4 HARM's under the wings. I'm pretty sure at least one mission in Desert Storm was flown in that configuration..

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 28 Sep 2020, 21:18
by Gums
Salute!

Thanks Pop!!

My last recollections of the F-4 loadouts did not have the HARM, but the AGM-45 and other stuff for close work like CBU cannisters. This was the Christmas blitz of '72 and on the way to my jet I sat in the van with the F-4 Weasel folks. The Thud Weasels were already moving, and they had those huge Standard Arm things.

As far as missions for the Double Ugly way back then, I vote for A2A with a shitload of the better Sparrows and the new 'winders. We shot down many Migs in '72, and the new missiles and other stuff helped.

Gums sends...

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 29 Sep 2020, 04:10
by edpop
When I was in Vietnam in 1967 the Marines flew CAS for us. Usually it was twin Zuni rocket pods and Napalm. That combination usually got the job done. :roll:

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2020, 14:03
by mixelflick
Gums wrote:Salute!

Thanks Pop!!

My last recollections of the F-4 loadouts did not have the HARM, but the AGM-45 and other stuff for close work like CBU cannisters. This was the Christmas blitz of '72 and on the way to my jet I sat in the van with the F-4 Weasel folks. The Thud Weasels were already moving, and they had those huge Standard Arm things.

As far as missions for the Double Ugly way back then, I vote for A2A with a shitload of the better Sparrows and the new 'winders. We shot down many Migs in '72, and the new missiles and other stuff helped.

Gums sends...


Gums, when you say "we"... you mean the US - yes? I seem to recall your background was in the Dragonfly flying CAS/rescue type missions. But I also know you flew the Viper. Just wondering how you went from one airframe to another?

Did you have any Double Ugly time or time in other fast jets to make the transition??

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2020, 15:39
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:[

Did you have any Double Ugly time or time in other fast jets to make the transition??

I know he also flew Voodoos and the SLUF, and I think the Deuce. IIRC the SLUF was his mount prior to the Viper.

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2020, 20:08
by basher54321
mixelflick wrote:Gums, when you say "we"... you mean the US - yes? I seem to recall your background was in the Dragonfly flying CAS/rescue type missions. But I also know you flew the Viper. Just wondering how you went from one airframe to another?

Did you have any Double Ugly time or time in other fast jets to make the transition??



The site interviews are still available:

http://www.f-16.net/interviews.html

Gums: http://www.f-16.net/interviews_article28.html

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 30 Sep 2020, 20:35
by Gums
Salute!

Yeah, mixel-breath. My bio is public knowledge, and not hard to find.

I had a few over 300 combat missions in the Dragonfly, and about 90 or so in the SLUF in 1972-1973. Despite my early years in ADC, I was predominately a mudbeater for 3000 hours or so.

My use of the term "we" means USAF assignments - F-102, F-101B, A-37, A-7D and F-16A. I never flew the Double Ugly and avoided even a back seat joy ride, heh heh.

Gums sends...

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 02:09
by madrat
Gums wrote:Salute!

Thanks Pop!!

My last recollections of the F-4 loadouts did not have the HARM, but the AGM-45 and other stuff...


Seems like AGM-45 started off on Skyhawks before going to 105 then F-4 last. Wasn't that about when they already started using Standard ARM on the F-4? Standard ARM was made to leave a marker that burned really bright so that a second wave could swoop in with napalm and iron bombs to clean up in those days. The second wave would probably have been more F-4's. McDonnell was motivated to make the F-4 do about every job imaginable at the time before anyone else could steal their thunder.

Too bad they didn't give you A-7 guys something akin to the Sidearm at the time. I have to imagine you saw plenty of tracers in the sky when you moved mud. It could have been especially handy when AAA started getting slaved to radar to have something to shoot back, but that wasn't available until the 80s.

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 12:49
by basher54321
US Navy A-4s were first presumably because it was a Navy program and their A-6/A-7s supposedly could carry Shrike also (Some A-6s later carried STARM).

Quite a few different versions of Shrike and STARM - the AGM-45A-2 is described as having a white phosphorus marker as well.

Although some F-105s like the G were using STARM over SEA it doesn't look to have happened on the US F-4 until the F-4G and that is put down to integration problems until development of the AN/APR-38.

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 16:27
by mixelflick
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:[

Did you have any Double Ugly time or time in other fast jets to make the transition??

I know he also flew Voodoos and the SLUF, and I think the Deuce. IIRC the SLUF was his mount prior to the Viper.


This is quite the reusume'. I appreciate links to Gums interviews and of course, Gums himself responding. What a career, and what a unique time to be in USAF..

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 17:54
by Gums
Salute!

Yeah, Basher, the Navy got the HARM first and the Electronic Warfare Intruders could also use the Standard. The Intruders may have used a few during The Storm.

Pop's Storm loadouts show the classic F-4G loadout of many HARM's and no Standards.

During the Blitz in '72, the F-4 Weasels were not the "G", but modified "C" or "D" variants. They had Shrikes and much better RHAW than the "E" models we had at Korat. The Thud Weasels had the Standard and a coupla Shrikes. Gotta tellya, the Standard was a really big missile. The new guidance memory feature made it fearsome, and the Weasels would loft one in from 20 or 30 miles away to start the party.

The SLUF would have been a poor Weasel/Iron Hand. Speed sucked, although staying power beat the early Iron Hand and Weasels.

For trivial pursuit answers, the F-102 detachment from Clark used a few AIM-4D heaters against VeeCee campfires. The IRSTS was decent, and if a FAC had good coordinates, then locking on to the camp fire was easy. The arrival of the Falcon missile gave new meaning to "fried rice".

I got to know Mister HARM well in the late 80's and early 90's when doing the A-12 control algorithms and then some F-18 work. USAF let us talk with the F-4G folks at Eglin and then our company worked with the late model RF-4's that had the same ARN-101 as the Weasels. In essence, they had a Viper mux bus setup and great inertial. Navy wanted a recce pod for the Bug and we had integration duties as well as data reduction from the test program.

Gums sends...

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 01 Oct 2020, 21:17
by jetblast16
Double Ugly


Easy, Gums, you're talking about my girl :D

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 09:45
by eloise
Gums wrote:For trivial pursuit answers, the F-102 detachment from Clark used a few AIM-4D heaters against VeeCee campfires. The IRSTS was decent, and if a FAC had good coordinates, then locking on to the camp fire was easy. The arrival of the Falcon missile gave new meaning to "fried rice".

That unique way an air to air weapon could be used.
Do you know if AIM-7 or AIM-120 could be used in similar way?

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 12:03
by hornetfinn
AIM-9X definitely can:
https://raytheon.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=1462

"With a software upgrade, AIM-9X retains its air-to-air capabilities and gains an air-to-surface capability," said Harry Schulte, Raytheon Missile Systems vice president of Air Warfare Systems. "AIM-9X now has the potential to take on an additional mission at a very affordable cost."

The test marks the third time an AIM-9X engaged moving surface targets. In April 2008, a U.S. Air Force F-16 launched an AIM-9X and sank a maneuvering boat, and in March 2007, a U.S. Air Force F-15C fired an AIM-9X and destroyed a fast-moving armored personnel carrier.


I actually think older IR seeking missiles without imaging seekers would work directly as they aren't as smart. They will go right after any heat source that they can lock onto. Imaging seekers might reject targets that don't look like aircraft or helicopter.

Not sure about radar-guided weapons but I think there might be similar pattern. AMRAAM might require software changes to work reliably against ground targets. AIM-7 likely goes after anything the fighter radar illuminates. They might work against soft and relatively big ground targets like SAM systems and TBM TELs.

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 14:24
by Gums
Salute!

Good points, Finn.

One thing about the newer seekers was more discrimination as to the IR frequency they were tuned for to minimize being decoyed. So older might be better.

The old 'winders would lock on to anything giving off heat! I was surprised we didn't have a few fired up North during the war.

Gums sends...

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 18:39
by mixelflick
eloise wrote:
Gums wrote:For trivial pursuit answers, the F-102 detachment from Clark used a few AIM-4D heaters against VeeCee campfires. The IRSTS was decent, and if a FAC had good coordinates, then locking on to the camp fire was easy. The arrival of the Falcon missile gave new meaning to "fried rice".

That unique way an air to air weapon could be used.
Do you know if AIM-7 or AIM-120 could be used in similar way?


Hopefully, the Falcon's hit rate vs. campfires was better than its air to air record, LOL

Related, I can't imagine an aircraft more poorly suited to the Vietnam conflict than the 102. Hell even the F-104 was better suited to battling Mig's...God only knows why they sent it over there, as the results were predictable. I've heard stories the F-111's debut was an even bigger debacle, but at least it was designed for the mission.

Re: Found these loadout charts for Phantoms during Desert St

Unread postPosted: 02 Oct 2020, 22:46
by Gums
Salute!

A point or two....

Hopefully, the Falcon's hit rate vs. campfires was better than its air to air record, LOL.


Actually, the Aim-4 wasn't all that bad after launch. I personally know one or two folks from that era that got Mig kills or tried to get the damned thing prepped and launched. As with most systems from the 50's and until the early 80's, the missiles or other things required dedicated boxes and mods to the plane. We had no "standard" interfaces - physical, electrical or logical. Mil_STD-1760 and the corresponding NATO STANAG helped immensely. My company was instrumental in development of those standards and I was allowed to participate in a few of the SAE AE-9 cmte meetings when involved with the A-12 and other systems 1985 - 1987.

The AIM-9 was part of the Hughes system in the Deuce, Voodoo and Six. The plane system did most of the work, so switchology was easy. Not so for the Double Ugly. You had to manually cool the seeker and then manually slave it to the radar. No feedback or "tone" if the seeker acquired the tgt. With no lock-on, no guided launch. 'winder was a piece of cake.

Related, I can't imagine an aircraft more poorly suited to the Vietnam conflict than the 102. Hell even the F-104 was better suited to battling Mig's...God only knows why they sent it over there, as the results were predictable. I've heard stories the F-111's debut was an even bigger debacle, but at least it was designed for the mission.


Roles and missions, Mixel. The PTB in the Pentagon had a detachhment from Clark at Bien Hoa ( where I met them) and DaNang, and I think in Thailand for a little while. With a gun, the thing would have been a good match for the Mig-17 due to its fantastic nose-pointing ability. I flew it down below 100 knots a few times when rat racing and had no problems except I was losing 10,000 feet per minute.

The Deuce and even the F-4 were not meant to hassle close in. Ditto for the Zipper. The best man at my wedding flew the thing in 'nam and it would have been a "boom and zoom" platform. It had no BVR capability ( ditto for the early Vipers where we hooked up again and flew in the 16th). It couldn't turn nearly as well as the Mig-21 or 17. The F-8 was prolly better, although a friend of mine got a kill in the Thud using the gun, and that plane was not a great A2A legend despite getting many gun kills.

The 'vaark was there when I was in the other combat test unit - Combat Lancer, I think. I was in Combat Dragon for the A-37. The 111 losses were due to mechanical designs of the stab, and not the terrain following tactic. When they came back in '72 they did really well.

Oh well, plenty of memories, mostly good ones, even after losing a few dozen friends.

Gums sends...