Origins of the USAF aggressors (Steve Davies)

[basher54321]

[charlielima223]

[basher54321]

[outlaw162]

Re: the CP footage, "Red Eagles React".

The guy's comment about the puffy clouds and always good wx at Tonopah made me recall our week there. We were there same week as the 425th TFTS F-5s out of Williams AFB (Foreign student training unit, but only the USAF instructors were there for this 'training'.)

We flew the first day fine and then the wx moved in. They told us the assets would wx cnx the whole next day. So I got together with the Willy F-5s, scheduled the airspace, and flew two gos against the F-5s....wx not perfect but certainly didn't preclude some good work with the 425th.

Got yelled at by the 4477th dude for this. "What if you'd had an accident?" As if it would reflect negatively on the program. Thought to myself accidents are bad no matter what you're doing, oh well. Next day, not wx cnxd, but half their sorties mx cnxd. Not the ideal week to have been there.

Gave 'em the obligatory plaque. Squadron patch and short phrase, "What you guys need is a good ILS".

I don't think they were amused.

[outlaw162]

Great stuff. Those guys were very fortunate to be involved in that.

One more comment.

In the Q&A portion when they're asked whether they flew against anyone with SEA experience against the MiG-21, these guys evidently hadn't. But....

When our unit went, I took a guy along who had been credited with an SEA MiG-21 kill as a PSO. On MiG-21 performance demo day, when the 21 did its nearly vertical slow speed thing, he tried to stay with it and nearly departed his airplane. Now, recovered and a few thousand feet below the MiG-21, with some heavy breathing, he managed to transmit, "It's not how fast the nose goes down, but how fast the tail comes up. Now what's next?"

Smart money just flew a circle around the nearly stationary MiG and eased right back into position on the wing when he was done showing off.

(BTW one more comment: The 210 knot no flap MiG-23 landing that 'Z' mentions was every day standard for the F-105F....with flaps.)

[boilermaker]

I read an article a while back about the last squadron which purely does WVR gun and short range missile fight training. I cannot find it anymore. Can anyone point to it. They say this handful of pilot are the last of a niche area of training for WWI type air combat and might not be kept up. The job is highly dangerous and wives are counselled about it too.

[basher54321]

Thought on flying the MiG-21s in the Red Eagles:

March 16 2021

I flew the most secret MiG fighter in the world for the US Air Force: Red Eagle pilot gives the low-down on America’s MiG-21 ‘Fishbed’

Name: Brian McCoy
Rank: Captain
Service: United States Air Force

https://hushkit.net/2021/03/16/i-flew-t ... 1-fishbed/

[outlaw162]

MiG-21F-13 preferred setup: "500' line abreast at 150 knots or less"

From my experience:

v F-100......J-57 is probably compressor stalling, a chunk of rudder into him and some opposite aileron and maybe I can collide with him before he can shoot me

v A-7......not much happening engine or handling-wise, but another 3-4 minutes before you see 200 knots again, if ever

v F-4......aero departure is imminent, probably will hit the ground before he can shoot me

v F-105.....fuggitaboutit, if you ever see 150 knots or less, you're generally more than half way thru landing rollout

and......

v F-16......probably take a little work, but eventually he'll have to call for help

[hornetfinn]

Thought on flying the MiG-21s in the Red Eagles:

March 16 2021

I flew the most secret MiG fighter in the world for the US Air Force: Red Eagle pilot gives the low-down on America’s MiG-21 ‘Fishbed’

Name: Brian McCoy
Rank: Captain
Service: United States Air Force

https://hushkit.net/2021/03/16/i-flew-t ... 1-fishbed/

Very interesting, thank you1

Yes, the ejection system was factory installed. For the older Soviet jets, that meant a 57mm mortar shell fired to propel the ejection seat (and pilot) from the aircraft. It also brought along the forward-hinged canopy which attached to the headrest of the pilot’s seat and then folded down in front of the pilot as a shield from windblast. (The canopy and related support members probably weighed 250 – 400 pounds!) The later F-7 jets featured a rocket-propelled seat that had nearly 0/0 capability (the pilot was on his own against the breeze). The fabulous ACES-II ejection seat installed in the F-15 and F-16 aircraft (among others) used similar rocket tubes that fired sequentially to keep the G-loading associated with riding the seat during ejection down to a maximum of about 16 G’s. The F-7 rocket tubes fired all at once … giving the ejectee a spine-compressing 21 G “boost” from the aircraft.

Finnish MiG-21F-13 pilots did 4 ejections and in all cases survived without major injuries. One ejection was very low level ejection after the MiG hit trees during a low level flight... One ejection was a very high altitude one after engine quit during a supersonic flight. MiG-21F-13 did have that mortar shell ejection seat SK-1, which was very tough on the body (especially to back). MiG-21BIS had much better ejection seat KM-1M, which functioned basically similarly to ACES-II but was still a lot tougher on the body. Finnish Air Force pilots also had 4 ejections with it and didn't have major injuries either. Finnish Hornets and BAe Hawks use much more modern Martin Baker Seats (Mk. 14 and Mk. 10 accordingly) and they have been really great ones.

But it's interesting that they didn't switch to more modern US made ejection seats. Probably figured that Soviet system was good enough, although not optimal due to higher possibility of injury.

[hornetfinn]

About MiG-21 range/endurance here is a description of an identification intercept by Finnish MiG-21BIS. It carried more fuel but also burned fuel faster than MiG-21F-13.

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/former- ... -intercept

So a slightly over an hour endurance with very little AB time and only armed with cannons. Total flight distance was probably something like 800-900 km (430-480 nm). It was definitely a point defence fighter by all means.

[basher54321]

MiG-21F-13 preferred setup: "500' line abreast at 150 knots or less"

Not sure it would do so well there against a Helicopter or an A-5M Claude or even an F-15 according to the interview



In 1973 Israeli F-4E pilot Iftach Spector recounted in his autobiography that he banned his pilots from engaging a MiG-21 in a slow speed scissors - before of course getting stuck in a real slow speed scissors fight with a Syrian MiG-21. He made it sound as they were noses up and out of airspeed at one point but somehow it went in his favor and the Syrian pilot ejected when he realized things were not going for him.

[outlaw162]

Yep, I think Chennault banned his P-40 pilots from engaging a Claude in a slow speed scissors.

(B-10, A-5M, etc, you have considerable knowledge of obscure aircraft types, very well read....are you a librarian?)

[basher54321]

The sadly forgotten B-10 was instrumental in delaying the Japanese invasion of the Netherlands East Indies along with the P-40 and other "less than front line aircraft" for all of about 2 minutes 23 seconds!