From the F-4 to the F-18

Cold war, Korea, Vietnam, and Desert Storm - up to and including for example the A-10, F-15, Mirage 200, MiG-29, and F-18.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

knuckles

Enthusiast

Enthusiast

  • Posts: 42
  • Joined: 23 Aug 2015, 03:25

Unread post25 May 2017, 13:34

https://tribune.com.pk/story/855837/50- ... -conflict/

A similar account of unfamiliar aircraft flown by volunteer PAF pilots in the 1973 Arab-Israeli conflict.
Offline
User avatar

Gums

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2402
  • Joined: 16 Dec 2003, 17:26

Unread post26 May 2017, 22:05

Salute!

Nice link, Knuckles. As the guy that taught your Dad's IP guess everything turned out well.

@neuro

The F-5s and A-37s flew combat missions with Vietnamese pilots the same day they arrived, without proper training in them.


I am not familiar with that scenario. As an A-37 IP at England AFB, I taught the Vee from 1968 until late 1971. My students ranged from experienced A-1 folks ( the DaNang squad) to raw nuggets with the rank of "cadet". Except for the A-1 folks, the cadets went thru UPT at Wichita Falls, then a program at Keesler in the T-28, then came to us. The ones that did poorly went to O-1's or Gooney Birds.

By the time our Vee got home they had flown heavyweight missions, night missions under the flares and dozens of basic range and nav rides.

In short, they were very well prepared and done good. I met several after "the fall" and never got any complaints about my instruction. Some of my early cadets even upgraded to F-5's by 1972, and I visited their squadron in November that year as we were pulling out all USAF attack forces ( only a detachment of USMC A-4 guys left and they were packing and leaving when I visited Bien Hoa). More interesting was that that one of our students led the flight that bombed Saigon in 1975, heh heh. Oh well.

++++++

I don't know what the big deal is.

No family model for the Sluf or Stubby or original Viper or Hornet or F-86 or P-51 or............ We knew how to fly and we had "touch". The plane told us things and we obeyed basic laws of flight.

So I soloed in the Sluf with zero "dual" instruction. And back in early 1985 Northrop was gonna let me fly the F-20 the day after I went thru the cockpit and engine start drill and so on at Edwards. I had maybe 30 or 40 hours of sim time and my last Viper flight was about 4 or 5 months before. I don't think it would have been a big deal with the company chase plane close aboard. I soled a few dozen Sluf and Viper folks flying close chase and no big deal.

Ya gotta be able to start the thing and know where the flaps control doofer is, gear handle, mic button and other minor details. Otherwise, as long as ya got old-fashioned steam gauges for speed, altitude and heading you can fly. Pure pinball wizards need not apply or try this at home.

Gums opines...
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
Offline

outlaw162

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1506
  • Joined: 28 Feb 2008, 02:33

Unread post27 May 2017, 19:05

It was definitely less stressful (and actually enjoyable) flying a B course 2/Lt on TR-1 from the chase position rather than from the backseat.....at least for the Instructor. :lol:
Online

mixelflick

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4152
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown

Unread post12 Jun 2017, 18:50

neurotech wrote:
tincansailor wrote:We have often seen fictional pilots fly aircraft, or other vehicles they aren't rated in. The guy with a drinking problem in "Airplane" comes to mind. Even an American Submarine crew running a German U-Boat, (Not likely). In "Independence Day" we see a Vietnam Era alcoholic ex F-4 Phantom pilot climb into an F-18 Hornet, and fly into heavy combat.

Granted this isn't the best of military aviation, or even of alien invasion movies, but could a sober F-4 pilot fly an F-18 Hornet with only an hour of instruction? Would he have a chance of surviving in combat? Could some of the vets on this board who haven't flown combat jets in years get back in the saddle so quickly?

Not likely. I still shake my head at the scene in Independence Day.

The closest documented case: A civilian test pilot crashed a F-16 after flying the F-4 for a while, then flying a F-16 again with minimal training (100 hours total in the F-16) and no centrifuge recertification. It was tragically fatal :(

http://www.f-16.net/inmemoriam_tribute267.html
http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article4902.html
http://www.f-16.net/downloads/F-16-AIB- ... 5-1502.pdf

The F/A-18 has somewhat touchy rudder pedals. If somebody wasn't used to flying a FBW aircraft like Hornet and started tapdancing on the rudders during takeoff, the PIO would send them off the runway. There is a video somewhere of Maj. Riel 'Guns' Erikson having a similar PIO incident while landing a CF-18. Go to 13:15 in the video.


Things like formation flying etc with so many unfamiliar pilots next you would be problematic. Between G-LOC, A-LOC and spatial disorientation, suddenly getting back in the pilot seat of a F/A-18 would likely be fatal.

That said, the procedures for the radar to auto-lock targets and get tone on the sidewinder are not that difficult. I had a flight in the back of an F/A-18D after a long break, and operating the radar and avionics was fairly straightforward. The highly experienced pilot in the front actually flew the jet.

Gums is basically correct, Although the F/A-18 does have a few a few hidden issues for inexperienced pilots. Also, Aerobraking on landing is not recommended in the F/A-18A-D legacy Hornets.


I realize any pilot can make a mistake, but I can't help but wonder if she's there to meet a quota, and if they didn't cut her some slack in letting her keep flying. You can call me sexist, but fact remains - women lack the testosterone that make pilots aggressive and confident. It's a physiological fact no amount of left leaning political correctness can change...
Offline
User avatar

botsing

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 885
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2015, 18:09
  • Location: The Netherlands

Unread post12 Jun 2017, 19:20

mixelflick wrote:You can call me sexist, but fact remains - women lack the testosterone that make pilots aggressive and confident. It's a physiological fact no amount of left leaning political correctness can change...

SAY WHAT?!!
10.jpg
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
Offline

neurotech

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2346
  • Joined: 09 May 2012, 21:34

Unread post12 Jun 2017, 21:59

mixelflick wrote:I realize any pilot can make a mistake, but I can't help but wonder if she's there to meet a quota, and if they didn't cut her some slack in letting her keep flying. You can call me sexist, but fact remains - women lack the testosterone that make pilots aggressive and confident. It's a physiological fact no amount of left leaning political correctness can change...

Doubt that a "quota" was involved with Maj. Erikson. I think its more that the small number of pilots in the class, and fighter pipeline in general, so the preferred option being to give them every chance to succeed. The instructors probably liked her attitude and knew she had the skills to succeed.

Maybe others here will have some insight, but if the Navy/USAF tactical pipeline is full, there isn't the resources and latitude for under performing students. Gender isn't a factor. At various times, there has been more resources available to provide for an extra push to get through training.

Flying fighters is about smart aggression, and I doubt a female pilot would be at a disadvantage because of the lack of testosterone. Being "too aggressive" in a dogfight results in bleeding off more energy, which can become a problem pretty quick.
Offline

quicksilver

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3133
  • Joined: 16 Feb 2011, 01:30

Unread post13 Jun 2017, 00:02

"...could a sober F-4 pilot fly an F-18 Hornet with only an hour of instruction?" Fly? Yes. Employ? No.

"Would he have a chance of surviving in combat?" Depends what kind of 'combat' we're talking about.

"Could some of the vets on this board who haven't flown combat jets in years get back in the saddle so quickly?" Yes, and as long as the OFP had not changed, employ also. Biggest re-adjustment isnt the 'flying' part, its the 'staying ahead of the jet' part.
Offline

huggy

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 608
  • Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 07:39

Unread post20 Jun 2017, 14:03

neurotech wrote:
The closest documented case: A civilian test pilot crashed a F-16 after flying the F-4 for a while, then flying a F-16 again with minimal training (100 hours total in the F-16) and no centrifuge recertification. It was tragically fatal.


How do you make the leap from "he went back to the F-16 from the F-4", and conclude that was the reason for the mishap? Did you read the AIB report?

neurotech wrote:
Things like formation flying etc with so many unfamiliar pilots next you would be problematic. Between G-LOC, A-LOC and spatial disorientation, suddenly getting back in the pilot seat of a F/A-18 would likely be fatal.



I'm not following you. I haven't flown in the military in 3 years: are you saying if I jumped in a Hornet today, I'd probably die to formation problems, G-LOC, or Spacial D?
Offline

35_aoa

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 548
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2015, 04:03
  • Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Unread post21 Jun 2017, 00:59

huggy wrote:
I'm not following you. I haven't flown in the military in 3 years: are you saying if I jumped in a Hornet today, I'd probably die to formation problems, G-LOC, or Spacial D?


Probably, but only because you aren't a light grey guy :)

In all seriousness, I think you would find our MacAir product to be very similar to yours. Haven't flown the eagle, but with the gear up, the Viper was pretty much just like flying a hornet, but with a side stick, and better acceleration. Big difference in the extreme last 10% of the flight envelope, but just flying around day to day, the two were pretty interchangeable. Biggest difference was the dearth of useful/capable avionics in the lot 15, which I think would be much more comparable between the strike and the hornet/rhino, and the fact that GD decided to put all switches and panels on the exact opposite side of the cockpit that Mac did.
Offline

neurotech

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2346
  • Joined: 09 May 2012, 21:34

Unread post21 Jun 2017, 20:38

huggy wrote:
neurotech wrote:
The closest documented case: A civilian test pilot crashed a F-16 after flying the F-4 for a while, then flying a F-16 again with minimal training (100 hours total in the F-16) and no centrifuge recertification. It was tragically fatal.


How do you make the leap from "he went back to the F-16 from the F-4", and conclude that was the reason for the mishap? Did you read the AIB report?

I did read the AIB report. Do you think an experienced and properly current F-16 pilot would get into a situation like this mishap? Exceptionally rare.

The F-4 has very limited rearward visibility, and requires a different technique for pilots check their six. As I recall, some pilots roll inverted briefly for better visibility. According to page 22 of the AIB report, the mishap pilot was looking behind, while pulling Gs, during the mishap sequence.
huggy wrote:
neurotech wrote:Things like formation flying etc with so many unfamiliar pilots next you would be problematic. Between G-LOC, A-LOC and spatial disorientation, suddenly getting back in the pilot seat of a F/A-18 would likely be fatal.


I'm not following you. I haven't flown in the military in 3 years: are you saying if I jumped in a Hornet today, I'd probably die to formation problems, G-LOC, or Spacial D?

If you piloted an unfamiliar high performance jet solo, after 3 years of not flying similar aircraft, things could easily end badly.

As for the specifics; It doesn't happen very often, but formation mid-air collisions do occur in the USAF/ANG/USAF. If there were 2+ other non-current/non-F/A-18 experienced pilots flying on your wing, things could get dangerous very fast. With an experienced lead, and just yourself in the other jet, formation wouldn't be as difficult. In the ancient days, some USAF F-4 WSOs flew formation from the back seat, as a flight of 2, quite capably. Having 4 jets in close formation, with 3 WSOs flying could end badly.

Flying a high performance tactical fighter, especially when looking around behind the jet can reasonably result in G-LOC or Spacial D if not 100% focused on how they are flying the jet. e.g In January 2014, A recent FRS graduate crashed a F/A-18E because he was fixated on the JHMCS and lost track of the horizon, as well as speed and altitude. The pilot ejected out at high speed with serious injuries.

Here is the F/A-18E JAGMAN report
http://www.public.navy.mil/usff/foia/Do ... 2014_1.pdf
Offline

huggy

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 608
  • Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 07:39

Unread post22 Jun 2017, 08:25

You know, neurotech..., I'm just going to step away and say that I don't agree with you.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 6439
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42

Unread post22 Jun 2017, 19:12

botsing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:You can call me sexist, but fact remains - women lack the testosterone that make pilots aggressive and confident. It's a physiological fact no amount of left leaning political correctness can change...

SAY WHAT?!!
10.jpg


Loled
Choose Crews
Offline

MD

Senior member

Senior member

  • Posts: 282
  • Joined: 29 Mar 2004, 11:25

Unread post22 Jun 2017, 21:17

Gums wrote:Salute!

No family model for the Sluf or Stubby or original Viper or Hornet or F-86 or P-51 or............

Gums opines...


The A-7K that the ANG had, did the active duty never have them? Seems weird that those came out much later after the production of the single seaters.
Offline

35_aoa

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 548
  • Joined: 28 Apr 2015, 04:03
  • Location: Virginia Beach, VA

Unread post23 Jun 2017, 01:24

huggy wrote:You know, neurotech..., I'm just going to step away and say that I don't agree with you.


BTW, sorry, for some reason I thought you were hacker. Disregard my comments. No idea how your esoteric single engine glider plane compares, however I'm fairly certain you wouldn't have a midair if you took the controls of a Hornet for a day.
Offline

huggy

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 608
  • Joined: 27 Jan 2004, 07:39

Unread post21 Jul 2017, 04:50

35_aoa wrote:
huggy wrote: No idea how your esoteric single engine glider plane compares, however I'm fairly certain you wouldn't have a midair if you took the controls of a Hornet for a day.


No worries.

My Deuce time doesn't compare well at all for formation.
However, my 4000 hours of single-seat-type jet time in other types of "non-fighter jets" does. I'm pretty sure I can fly formation safely in a military jet fighter, despite Neurotech's doubts.
PreviousNext

Return to Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests