MiG-25 gunned down by an F-5?

[mixelflick]

I'd really like Oldiraquiairforce's opinion on this!

Another MiG-25PD(export) is known to have been shot down by F-14s and F-5s, in 1983, while another - flown by the Iraqi top "ace" of the Iraq-Iran War, Lt.Col. Mohammad "Sky Falcon" Rayyan - was shot down by gunfire from an IRIAF F-5E while underway at Mach 1 and 29.000ft, in July 1986.

True?

I'm aware the Tiger II could punch through the mach, but found this supposed kill quite interesting.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

Dear mixelflick, this is one of the Iranian miserable allegations jokes.

I did explain before on another topic this was one of Tom Cooper and Iranian false allegations published by their books and internet websites, before 2003 non of these allegations were heard about it, but after the collapse of the state and the absence of a central government of Iraq the Iranian take the opportunity and start to make false aerial victories and fake claims, the goal behind this are several reasons.

Ones cover their failure air force performance during the eight years of war against Iraq (same World Cup to North Korea against Portugal) North Korean government tell their people they have come to the final World Cup!
Second Iran feels large threat by U.S. and Israel to attack their nuclear reactor, therefore they believed such this propaganda will contribute to frighten the United States or Israeli pilots to launch attacks.

Earlier Iranian and Tom Cooper alleged that an Iranian F-14 shot down Iraqi MiG-25PD in 1980, this allegations was in 2004/005 our reply was depending on our solid information that the MiG-25 entered the service early of 1981 and the MiG-25PDs were arrived later so how's that even possible shooting down aircraft before the plane enters service?
Tom Cooper and the Iranian jump in the date to 1981(and here i would like to draw attention that the annual calendar of Iran differs from the Gregorian calendar) the Iranians rely solar calendar and most the world including Iraq rely Gregorian calendar, which is mean still Iranian allegations date even before starting the war!

Recently they did jump in the date to 1982 in some Websites and if you check last update of this allegations you will find about year ago or so.

For that probably you may wondering what is the reason to keep Iranian insistence of this claim and just keep lying?
The reason because Iraqi MiG-25 was such a nightmare to the Iranian air force during the war, highly speed aircraft flying high altitude make it un-intercepted aircraft "to them at that time", penetrate Iranian airspace at any time taken high details picture of Iranian sites and back to attack later, this kind of action put Iranian Air force in an awkward position of their own people and public opinion about their potential of using aircraft such F-14, so next to the reasons that I mentioned previously also try to repair their reputations.

Now while I'm writing this comment to you the concerned pilot as known (Mohammad Rayyan) appear online on my Facebook page and I did told him about this Iranian claim and topic he just laugh and said (again!!).

However I wish if I could post his picture here, he has a special face worth to his reputation...

Or you may told on what time you will be online on this site then perhaps you got little chance to see him(make sure on GMT).

At the end don't bother your self with this cheep Iranian story of shooting down Iraqi MiG-25 by F-5, First this claim came versus shooting down Iranian F-14 by Iraqi MiG-21 sn 681, second no Iraqi MiG-25 pilot allowed to fly low then 29.000 feet and Mach 1 in combat mission over Iran during the war.

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

All sides make claims and stories, but when Iranian stories are "oh yeah, 30 years ago we had no problem taking down MiG-25s with any and every fighter in our inventory" and U.S. stories are "20 years ago that MiG-25 outran 14 missiles and chased off our EW plane"... whose story sounds more believable?

[old.iraqi.air.force]

All sides make claims and stories, but when Iranian stories are "oh yeah, 30 years ago we had no problem taking down MiG-25s with any and every fighter in our inventory" and U.S. stories are "20 years ago that MiG-25 outran 14 missiles and chased off our EW plane"... whose story sounds more believable?

The U.S. story reliable and confirmed because both side admit the incident and the Iraqi air force did not deny that "both loss of two MIG-25s during DS 91 or outran the missiles" but the main point is shot down the aircraft even before it enters service this illogical, and the story of Iranian F-5 gun MIG-25..

[sprstdlyscottsmn]

exactly. This is why I am glad to have you on the forum O.I.A.F.

[neurotech]

All sides make claims and stories, but when Iranian stories are "oh yeah, 30 years ago we had no problem taking down MiG-25s with any and every fighter in our inventory" and U.S. stories are "20 years ago that MiG-25 outran 14 missiles and chased off our EW plane"... whose story sounds more believable?

I find some of the claims dubious because F-15Cs during GW 91 were challenged by MiG-25s and the F-15s had to actually dogfight to get a missile kill with AIM-7s and AIM-9s. The MiG-25 has flown at M2.5+ in combat and avoiding a missile fired by a slower adversary is quite believable. I don't think the Iranian F-14s would have had the missiles for air superiority either.

The F-5E is a capable fighter in close but would not be able to maintain supersonic flight for long before running out of gas. Even with AIM-9s, the F-5E would have a fleeting chance to take the shot before the MiG-25 is too far away for a 'winder to get tone.

[tomcooper]

This happened indeed, on 4 July 1986.

A MiG-25RB that was returning from attack on Tehran was decelerating towards Iraqi border, when caught by two IRIAF F-5E Tiger IIs (flown by Col Mohammad Zare-Nejad and Capt Majid Shabani).

Zare-Nejad caught with the Foxbat as this was underway at an altitude of about 9,000 metres and about Mach 0.9 (Shabani lagged about 700-800 yards behind, but was close enough to see what was going on). He didn't activate his radar in order not to warn the Iraqi. Then his AIM-9s didn't fire because of technical malfunction. Finally, he approached to within 1,000 yards and opened fire with 20mm cannons. The MiG began trailing smoke from the right wing and rapidly descending towards the border. Then the Tigers disengaged because both were short on fuel after a high-speed climb.

Zare-Nejad didn't claim a kill, rather a 'damaged'. But, that Foxbat was written off after making an emergency landing in Iraq. The Iranian intel learned about this and credited him with a kill. As usually, jalous of the regular air force and its success, the IRGC (Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, better known as 'Pasdaran') 'discredited' this kill several years ago, and forced the IRIAF to 'admit' that it didn't kill any MiG-25 during the entire war, although it did shot down several.

But...the write-off was confirmed by Brig Gen Ahmad Sadik, (IrAF, ret.), co-author of the book
Iraqi Fighters, Camouflage & Markings, 1953-2003. Sadly, Sadik is meanwhile languishing in some Syrian prison...

I found the wreckage of the Foxbat in question (together with three others) - and photographed it - at the dump of ex-Habbaniyah AB, back in March 2006. It still had bomb-shackles under (what was left of) its left wing.

Full story - including interviews with Zare-Nejad and Shabani - will be published later this year, in the book
Iranian Tigers at War: Northrop F-5A/B, F-5E/F and Sub-Variants in Iranian Service since 1966, almost exclusively based on official IRIAF documentation and written by Babak Taghvae.

So, no 'claims & stories', no 'false allegations', but an event confirmed by authoritative sources from both sides of the conflict.

[tomcooper]

Dear mixelflick, this is one of the Iranian miserable allegations jokes.

I did explain before on another topic this was one of Tom Cooper and Iranian false allegations published by their books and internet websites, before 2003 non of these allegations were heard about it, but after the collapse of the state and the absence of a central government of Iraq the Iranian take the opportunity and start to make false aerial victories and fake claims, the goal behind this are several reasons.

First of all, I think you should try to inform yourself about me. Contrary to your alegations - and those from specific other characters - (some of which are really going beyond good taste since long), I'm not some sort of 'Mullah's Spokesperson', but simply a military aviation journalist and historian.

Except for publishing about half a dozen of books and more than 100 articles about Iranian and Iraqi air forces, I have published books and articles about African, Asian and Latin American etc. air forces. So, if I'm involved in some sort of 'Iranian conspiracy against Iraq', then how to hell are you going to explain my books like Wings over Ogaden or Modern Chinese Warplanes?

For whom am I 'spreading propaganda' in such cases? For the ex-government of the Derg in Ethiopia of the 1970s and 1980s? For Siad Barre? For the Chinese too? Perhaps for the Pentagon...?

*****************

Regarding research about air warfare between Iran and Iraq, and 'in general'....

When we (Farzad Bishop and me) began researching about air warfare between Iran and Iraq, intention was to find out what has happened - if at all. Nothing else. Period.

Namely, all the sources outside these two countries said this air war was 'no story' (see books by Dr. Alfred Price, Bill Gunston etc. for example), that Iranian F-14s were inoperational, that a Soviet-flown Iraqi Mi-24 has shot down an Iranian F-4 Phantom using AT-6 anti-tank missiles etc., etc., etc. There was really plenty of BS flying around...

On the start of that research, back in 1998, I asked at the local Iraqi embassy for points of contact and permission to visit the IrAF. It was nearly three years later that I was invited to Iraq - yup, by your 'old' government (i.e. that of Saddam Hussein al-Tikriti), back in 2001.

I've spent nearly a week in Baghdad and at the Air Force Academy in Tikrit. Sadly, although showing me around, the IrAF was not very forthcoming with information about the war with Iran, nor curious to let me take any photos. Essentially, everybody told me, 'that's all history now', back then.

Thus, we could not count on any kind of serious Iraqi support when preparing the book Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988. Result is that the book was 'leaning towards Iran', simply because Iranians were more forthcoming with information - although this in unofficial fashion only.

Using some of episodes not published in that book, Farzad and me then went on to publish two volumes for Osprey, Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat, and Iranian F-14A Tomcat Units in Combat, back in 2003-2004.

Had any of Iraqi sources we've been in touch already then proved as forthcoming as they promised they would be, we could have published similar books about IrAF too. But, we didn't, simply because it was your mates, Iraqis, that didn't stand to their own promises.

With one exception: shortly after these two titles came out, I've been contacted by Brig Gen Ahmad Sadik (IrAF, ret.) and several other ex-IrAF pilots. I nearly bankrupted myself travelling to the Middle East to meet and de-brief Sadik. In cooperation with him, Farzad and me have brought out an improved - yet much shortened - feature on air warfare between Iran and Iraq. This was published by Avions magazine, in France, as 'special volumes' - 'Hors serie' - No. 22 and No. 23, back in 2007 (between others, you can read there about the story of the MiG-25 shot down by an F-5E - using guns - too, and then as told by Sadik, who inspected the damaged Foxbat personally.)

Guess, you've never even heard of that publication?

Sadik and me then co-authored the above-mentioned book 'Iraqi Fighters', and began planning an entire series of books about history of Arab air forces at war with Israel (that's how the Arab MiGs series came into being, realized in cooperation with prominent historian Dr David Nicolle and several other authors).

Even so, during cooperation with Sadik, one thing became obvious: despite contacts with multiple ex-IrAF pilots, all we were getting was 'battlefield herritage', i.e. next to no official documentation. It remains that way until today - while, in comparison, we've meanwhile obtained plenty of original documentation from Iran.

*************

Correspondingly, before you come to the idea to 'complain' again that I'm 'spreading [cheap] propaganda', or drag my name through the dirt in any other fashion, keep few things in mind, mister:

- I've done my homework. Throughoutly. My publications on the topic of Iran-Iraq War - or that of Arab or any other 'obscure' air forces - are better cross-examined with sources from BOTH sides of the conflict than all the thousands of books and articles about Israeli air force published ever.

- If you want to complain, complain to the address of all the possible Iraqi sources: I'm seriously fed up of all the, 'my uncle was there, I know better than you' wannabes, and it's long since I've lost the count of all the Iraqis promising me to 'tell the story', 'provide documents', 'photos' etc. - and then disappearing before I could say cookie.

[basher54321]

Hi Tom - glad to see you on here - I am only really familiar with 3 Osprey books you and Farzad did (Arab MiG-19/21, Iranian F-14 / Iranian F-4). The Osprey research is usually very in depth - and I did feel most of it was pretty consistent with other conflicts of the period considering the technology advantage they had (Combat Tree/ TISEO / AWG-9 + lots of AIM-54s). There are so just many factors to take account of in these things!

Complacent MiG-25RB pilot thinks he is safe so is cruising at 30,000ft - but unaware an F-5E is behind him - they could have seen the contrail or been directed up there by another platform - this has nothing to do with the respective capabilities of either aircraft.

Without delving into the book again the F-14A claim's were against high flying MiG-25RBs (recon) were they not? - if the F-14 gets in the right place with that AWG-9 system - I don't see what's to argue. (Unless you know about few probably classified caveats the system had)


It's an interesting period and I am glad someone was able to get some information and put it in English because there was literally nothing but speculation before it. That being said I would hope more research could be forthcoming - and maybe Old Iraqi AF has some good contacts as well.

[tomcooper]

....sigh...

Ask any pilot: one of central concerns regarding military flying is not the speed of altitude, or manoeuvreability. To paraphrase... Clinton(?)... 'It's the fuel state, stupid'.

Calculate the range of a MiG-25RB from, say, Abu Ubayda Ibn al-Jarrah AB (al-Kut) and Esfahan or Tehran. You'll end with result that the plane can take only 2 or 4 FAB-500T bombs (can't recall exactly how many right now and I'm too lazy to search through my notes), and fly at Mach 2.0+ for only the last 300 kilometres to the target.

That means: they had to penetrate the Iranian airspace through gaps within Iranian radar coverage, at low alt and Mach 0.9. That was no major problem: they've got the 'blueprints' from an Iranian defector before the war. And because the Iranian government was stupid enough not to care about improving early warning capabilities of the 'disloyal' air force (Project Seek Sentry - acquisition of Boeing E-3A Sentry AWACS - was one of first cancelled after the Shah was gone, and no new radars were acquired from 1978 until 2009), it was nearly always too late to detect them.

Then they would start to climb and accelerate. So, once a MiG-25RB appared 'in the middle of Iran', climbing to 21,000m (approx 63,000ft) and accelerating to Mach 2.1-2.3, the IRIAF was left with only some 4-5 minutes to react, i.e. attempt an intercept. Actually, if no F-14 was somewhere directly in front of the MiG-25, and at least an altitude of 12,000m (approx 36,000ft) it had no chance to intercept at all. Of course, if this was the case, the RHAW-gear on the Foxbat would warn the pilot and the Iranians could only watch it running away in direction of Iraq....

Usually, it was so that the Foxbat could approach to within 45-50 or so kilometres from the target, release and then run away at Mach 2.1-2.3 before caught by Iranian interceptors. In that one (on 4 July 1986) case it didn't: it had to decelerate or risk running out of fuel before reaching the Iraqi border. And it had to descend. By accident, there were two F-5Es around: they were actually underway on a CAS sortie and had to jettison their bombs before engaging (a reason more why they run out of fuel 'early').

So, no 'complacent' Foxbat pilot or anything else: the guy did what he could. He even made a safe emergency landing back in Iraq, but the plane was simply too badly damaged for repairs. So, a write off.

To make things more interesting, though: this loss was simply 'deleted' from official IrAF lists of losses presented to Saddam. For example, from such documents like 'An Analytical Study on the Causes of Iraqi Aircraft Attrition During the Iran-Iraq War', prepared in January-February 1992 (I've got a transcription of that document). So, it seems that whatever was left of official IrAF files (and that's not much), is next to useless.

The same was the case with at least two other MiG-25s shot down over Iran, both shot down by IRIAF F-14s (one over the Khark Island, another over the City of Arak; the latter crashed in the centre of that city, and there are photos of its wreckage), plus some 3 others - wreckage of which I've found (and photographed) at Habbaniyah AB dump too. That's why the Iraqis usually cite only 3 MiG-25 losses during that war: the one shot down over Khark, one lost due to supposed 'engine damage', in 1986, and one shot down (supposedly by IRGC's HQ-2J SAMs) over Esfahan, in 1987.

In that sense, and regarding your question about kills vs. high-flying MiG-25s: it's pointless for me to explain it. See for yourself, first-hand, so to say:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BJ1cdMHzKM

BTW, before anybody comes to any kind of dumb ideas: irespective of who aired it (PRESSTV is a regime-controlled satellite channel) no, that 8-episodes-documentary (only 3 were translated to English) was NOT done by 'Iranian regime', but by an independent Iranian producer. Yes, there are such producers in Iran, and plenty of them: no surprise, Iran is no Soviet Union, and despite an idiotic regime in power, there is some sort of 'limited freedom of press'. At least as long as one doesn't make the IRGC mad. Contrary to our team, that gent was granted official permission to interview participants still living in Iran; then he travelled abroad and interviewed a few more (plus me).

Oh, and re. such charlatans like 'Old Iraqi...'.... I've seen a lot of that in the last 10 years. There was even an Iranian doing something similar like he's doing (i.e. 're-writing' excerpts from articles and books written by somebody else, but not known in the general public in the West). If at all, the best characters like him can come up with are excerpts from CVs of some 20 'most successful IrAF pilots'. These CVs were prepared in 2002 for Saddam too, and became - literally - his 'favourite bed-time lecture' (Saddam loved the IrAF and especially his favourite pilots). While some of them (the few I've got to see) are beautifully done (quite nicely bound, with few good photos and maps), most of these are based on 'battlefield herritage', if you know what I mean - and no official documentation either.

Really... I've got a (scanned) copy of the original War Diary of the Royal Egyptian Air Force from the 1948-1949 War with Israel... Dr. David Nicolle and me have got copies of log-books of Egyptian and Syrian pilots intercepting RAF bombers and fighting Israelis during the Suez War of 1956....Photos of nearly every single IrAF pilot KIA during the October 1973 War with Israel.

But, in all these (nearly 30) years of research of local air forces, I'm yet to see a single pilot log book of any Iraqi pilot. Without somebody being able to provide something of that kind, I'm simply not taking anybody there for 'serious source' any more.

Thus, 'thanks, but no thanks'. I've got some first-class Iraqi sources, and there will be quite a few relevant publications in the near future.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

Dear mixelflick, this is one of the Iranian miserable allegations jokes.

I did explain before on another topic this was one of Tom Cooper and Iranian false allegations published by their books and internet websites, before 2003 non of these allegations were heard about it, but after the collapse of the state and the absence of a central government of Iraq the Iranian take the opportunity and start to make false aerial victories and fake claims, the goal behind this are several reasons.

First of all, I think you should try to inform yourself about me. Contrary to your alegations - and those from specific other characters - (some of which are really going beyond good taste since long), I'm not some sort of 'Mullah's Spokesperson', but simply a military aviation journalist and historian.

Good we have many business to do here,

Well you have mentioned (some of which are really going beyond good taste) but i hope you didn't forget your comments and your words style and reply that you have used before on different forums, particular on Iraqi armed forces forum especially when you find no answer to the questions of others or even who try to denies what bring for, anyway this is not our subject.

So at the end you're not some sort of 'Mullah's Spokesperson', but i find you battling fiercely for industry stories and victories allegations for them? such 250 air victory and 160 of them by F-14s and three MIG-23 shot down by one missile (such summer offers buy two and the third one for free) and Iraqi TU-22 pilots shot down and they were crying and begging to the Iranian and one of them relatives of President Saddam " as i read it from long time (however something like that), now this is not the issue, But as you say you are a journalist and familiar with the Aviation News and reports i find it contradictory that you're trying to prove that the IrAF pilots never knew what hit them and (you given good example for sure created by you that the case of the Super Etendard shot down in 1984! the lead's plane 'simply blew up' while flying along the Saudi coast. The young wingman and his superiors later concluded they must have been shot down by the Saudis. But, the Saudis would never come to the idea to attack any of Iraqi aircraft passing by their coast. What happened then: the RWR of the Super Etendard was confused by the AWG-9 and showed an entirely wrong threat direction. Correspondingly, the pilot looked in the wrong direction and never saw the AIM-54 that hit him...

good really impressive you have nice talent to create beautiful action stories! But regrettably i would like to inform you that Iraq officially borrowed only five Super Etendards from France and one only crashed due to low altitude " lost in a training accident" early December 1983 over Arabic Gulf therefore the four remaining sent back almost in November 1984 and here the contrast of the novel begins between shot down Super Etendards by Iranian F-14s?

As we can read here on this very long list !
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_211.shtml
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_210.shtml
So how do you explain all these claims for us? all confirmed!!
hope you be patience because I will reply on all what you have wrote just in case not to confuse the readers by different comments and missing the point of the debate

[tomcooper]

...I find it contradictory that you're trying to prove that the IrAF pilots never knew what hit them...

Good point - because it's explaining the essence of your problem: lack of understanding for 'technical details'.

Try to inform yourself about something called 'radar warning receiver', and especially about effects of AWG-9 on specific Soviet-made RWRs.

Then call me again.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

...I find it contradictory that you're trying to prove that the IrAF pilots never knew what hit them...

Good point - because it's explaining the essence of your problem: lack of understanding for 'technical details'.

Try to inform yourself about something called 'radar warning receiver', and especially about effects of AWG-9 on specific Soviet-made RWRs.

Then call me again.

Do not rush and do not run away from the heart of the matter and the debate, I did point out some essential points so don't go out on the scope of the topic. Secondly, I was F-1 fighter pilot I'm not amateur or Aviation fan, so keep your self away from technical details that if you really even now what does it mean.

[old.iraqi.air.force]

Now I got to go wife and children are waiting. I'm not going to spend my whole time just to keep asking you to answer my question and as usual you run from subject to another , see you on tomorrow and there is a lot and out of your expectation things will show up.

Cheers!

[basher54321]

.................
That means: they had to penetrate the Iranian airspace through gaps within Iranian radar coverage, at low alt and Mach 0.9. That was no major problem: they've got the 'blueprints' from an Iranian defector before the war. And because the Iranian government was stupid enough not to care about improving early warning capabilities of the 'disloyal' air force (Project Seek Sentry - acquisition of Boeing E-3A Sentry AWACS - was one of first cancelled after the Shah was gone, and no new radars were acquired from 1978 until 2009), it was nearly always too late to detect them.

Then they would start to climb and accelerate. So, once a MiG-25RB appared 'in the middle of Iran', climbing to 21,000m (approx 63,000ft) and accelerating to Mach 2.1-2.3, the IRIAF was left with only some 4-5 minutes to react, i.e. attempt an intercept. Actually, if no F-14 was somewhere directly in front of the MiG-25, and at least an altitude of 12,000m (approx 36,000ft) it had no chance to intercept at all. Of course, if this was the case, the RHAW-gear on the Foxbat would warn the pilot and the Iranians could only watch it running away in direction of Iraq....
.............

Impressive actually - most might not realise you go as far as analysing flight profile and routes.