"Pedal turn" versus "Conventional turn"

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quicksilver

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Unread post02 Jan 2019, 01:53

steve2267 wrote:QS, this may be a naive question, but can you shed some light on the Hornet pirouette? Is it principally a velocity vector roll primarily performed with lateral stick? Or is it a pedals-only maneuver? At what angles of attack is it initiated or performed and at what indicated airspeeds? Of course, feel free to tell me to pound sand.


It is largely a vv roll, but don’t look for absolutes. It depends...on the flight conditions at which one initiates the maneuver and how the fight geometry is progressing (ie what your adversary is doing and where he is positionally). It is not a set-piece action. The most impressive one I ever saw (in a fight) was executed from a relatively shallow climb — not more than ~20 degrees nose high, and he didn’t have to dump the nose on the backside; he went from clearly defensive to neutral/slightly offensive.

One is making the jet yaw very rapidly and thus there are q limits.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post02 Jan 2019, 02:33

More clues:
How F-35 Experience Could Reduce Hurdles To Developing Fighters
08 Sep 2018 Graham Warwick

"...The F-35 has to be able to use all the maneuverability it has. The program office called for air-to-air tracking up to stall AOA, or alpha, followed by predictable and controllable post-stall handling. “The aircraft has to be departure-resistant in any normal tactical maneuver and recover with minimal pilot input,” he says.

“At high AOA, the [aerodynamic] model is very challenging to build, so there is some augmentation outside the model to correct for errors,” says Canin, adding: “High-alpha control is all about allocation of horizontal tail power for yaw and pitch.”…" viewtopic.php?f=61&t=54424&p=401317&hilit=Canin#p401317 from 'krieger22':

Source: article 2: http://now.eloqua.com/es.asp?s=96691307 ... Id=13994#1
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steve2267

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Unread post02 Jan 2019, 03:24

QS, copy “it depends...” & thanks for description. Can you say max IAS or IAS envelope in which it can be performed?

Spaz, thanks for link to that article. Ties a lot of topics together.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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quicksilver

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Unread post02 Jan 2019, 05:35

No, sorry.
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steve2267

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Unread post02 Jan 2019, 06:43

No worries. Thx for your insights & experiences.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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gta4

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 10:40

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p011127.pdf

This article shows how pirouette is used in actual ACM. (operational test and evaluation of super hornet)

Super hornet needs to use its superb pitch authority to acquire offensive position first, then use pirouette to score follow-on gun attacks.

This maneuver is frequently used by test pilots. It offers high effective turn rate (similar to peak instaneous turn rate).
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gta4

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 11:06

So if my understanding is correct, pirouette could be used to help you maintain offensive, or help you convert from defensive to neutual, but it cannot be used as the first move when you enter the merge in neutual.
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sprstdlyscottsmn

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 13:41

IMO if you enter the merge at pirouette speeds, you already lost.
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spazsinbad

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 14:16

gta4 wrote:http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/p011127.pdf This article shows how pirouette is used in actual ACM. (operational test and evaluation of super hornet) Super hornet needs to use its superb pitch authority to acquire offensive position first, then use pirouette to score follow-on gun attacks. This maneuver is frequently used by test pilots. It offers high effective turn rate (similar to peak instaneous turn rate).

Thanks for that. Copy attached has been made 'text readable' & cropped with the blank page deleted to make 12 pages.

Operational Lessons Learned from the F/A-18E/F Total Flight Control Systems Integration Process 2000

Scary moment lightning strikes a F-18 fighter jet cockpit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mbC3w-os0s

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Super Hornet Total Flight Control Systems Integration Process 2000 p011127 pp12.pdf
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tailchase

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 15:06

HAving any trick in your bag can be useful (pirouette).
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quicksilver

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 15:15

gta4 wrote:So if my understanding is correct, pirouette could be used to help you maintain offensive


Yep.

gta4 wrote:...or help you convert from defensive to neutral


Yep.
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quicksilver

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 15:16

tailchase wrote:HAving any trick in your bag can be useful (pirouette).


x2
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quicksilver

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 15:27

FYSA. Notably, one of the authors of the linked-to pdf was “Decoy” Dunaway, later to become “VADM” and AIR-00 at NAVAIR.
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gta4

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 15:42

My takeaway:

1) horizontal pirouette = pedal turn.

2) vertical pirouette = J turn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQv5IZqndTY

Haha never though super bug could reverse heading that fast.
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gta4

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Unread post03 Jan 2019, 15:52

F18 J turn 270.gif

F18 j turn 270 en.jpg

Smooth and tight, like a ballet dancer
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