Sino-Russian led Dessert Storm

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milosh

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 18:46

zero-one wrote:
milosh wrote:Are you serious? You compare satellite recon against battlefield aircraft and drone recon which Soviet commanders had at their disposal all the time?


Are you saying that the Russians could have had better intelligence via Recon than NATO, You may have a point, even today, satellites have not fully replaced airborne recon assets like the RQ-4


Yes and no. US coalition would have better strategic intelligence because I don't know much about Soviet satellites back then, but during night, bad weather, or when you need react fast calling fast spy plane or launching division drone is better then waiting for satellite, Tupolev drones would go with division so division don't even need spy plane.

Also we could read US generals wanted SR-71 to be avable for Desert Storm, if satelittes are lot better why bother with SR-71?
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Tiger05

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 20:14

milosh wrote:
madrat wrote:Who are you kidding? In 1991 we altered orbits of existing satellites in the sky to have anywhere from 6 to ten satellites pass over every six hours, many with a modest 1 meter resolution. Some are still classified, but they were not worse.


Are you serious? You compare satellite recon against battlefield aircraft and drone recon which Soviet commanders had at their disposal all the time?

Fascinating.

In fact I even post link to text where you can read Schwarzkopf asked to SR-71 be its disposal then he learned it is retired.

Also satelitte recon don't work in night in 1991, while you have MiG-25RB which carried special flare bombs so it can be useful even during night.


The US had U-2s and RF-4Cs (Air Force) and F-14 TARPS (Navy) in-theater during ODS for battlefield recon. So saying US battlefield commanders had no recon aircraft at their disposal and relied on satellites only for intel is grossly incorrect. And lets not forget about JSTARS... a revolutionary capability at the time and something the Soviets completely lacked.
Last edited by Tiger05 on 02 Jun 2020, 21:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 20:52

C&C and situational awareness (or lack thereof) would have been more of an issue for a Soviet-led Desert Storm IMO. No JSTARS for a start as i already pointed out. The Soviets had an equivalent to the AWACS, the A-50 'Mainstay', but with inferior performances and quite severe reliability issues at least in its original version. The introduction of the improved A-50M solved many issues but it wasnt in service in 1991. Furthermore, A-50s were PVO assets, not VVS, so i am not even sure they would have been deployed outside Soviet borders in support of an expeditionary force.

Lack of tankers would have been another issue. VVS could rely only on around 30 Il-78 'Midas'. A meager force compared to the one fielded by the USAF. And as the old adage goes, "Nobody Kicks a$$ Without Tanker Gas"... :)
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nastle

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 21:03

marauder2048 wrote:"Dessert Storm": the Sino-Russian aerial offensive just *creams* the Iraqis.

china and USSR were on luke-warm terms maybe a little better after gorbi visit to china in 1989

they certainly would not join forces for anything, even if they could in 1991
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nastle

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 21:07

zero-one wrote:
botsing wrote:

3. Soviet's also had some State of the art equipment, the F-117 has no comparison, but perhaps the Su-27 may have had more success than the F-15 as it was more advanced than 1991 (non-AESA/AMRAAM) F-15s.

q.


su-27 of 1991 ? doubtful , F-15C with AIM-7M isn't it far more advanced than R-27 equipped su-27 [ which like AIM-7F at best]

plus soviet doctrine was not really designed for CAP by fighter aircraft
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nastle

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 21:08

Tiger05 wrote:C&C
Lack of tankers would have been another issue. VVS could rely only on around 30 Il-78 'Midas'. A meager force compared to the one fielded by the USAF. And as the old adage goes, "Nobody Kicks a$$ Without Tanker Gas"... :)

plus i doubt if any PVO/VVS fighters bar mig-31 were equipped for IFR in 1991
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nastle

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 21:11

hornetfinn wrote:I think Russians and Chinese would have done the whole thing very differently. IMO, they would likely have opened up with barrages of tactical ballistic missiles and cruise missiles fired by different Tupolevs. Then followed by low flying Su-24s, MiG-27s and Su-17s to soften Iraqi Air Force and Republican Guard units. They would likely have followed with ground troops next and not done similar extended air campaign as the Coalition did.

I bet they would've got the job done, but with significantly higher losses. They didn't have F-117, similar targeting capability or SEAD/DEAD assets. So they would've used more conventional approach to fighting. Also their ground troops didn't have similar night fighting capabilities, although otherwise they were clearly superior to Iraqi equipment. Especially so when it came to tanks and artillery. They would've used a lot more MLRS and tube artillery instead of aircraft.

agreed

Maybe even some SSGN based cruise missiles as well, even the obsolete Shaddocks could be useful when used en masse

although can you elaborate on SOviet armys night fighting capability in 1991 ? How was it inferior to NATO
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Tiger05

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Unread post02 Jun 2020, 21:44

nastle wrote:
zero-one wrote:3. Soviet's also had some State of the art equipment, the F-117 has no comparison, but perhaps the Su-27 may have had more success than the F-15 as it was more advanced than 1991 (non-AESA/AMRAAM) F-15s.


su-27 of 1991 ? doubtful , F-15C with AIM-7M isn't it far more advanced than R-27 equipped su-27 [ which like AIM-7F at best]

plus soviet doctrine was not really designed for CAP by fighter aircraft


Not to mention that the Su-27's N001 radar is nowhere near as good as the F-15's APG-63/70.
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nastle

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Unread post03 Jun 2020, 00:05

Tiger05 wrote:
nastle wrote:
zero-one wrote:3. Soviet's also had some State of the art equipment, the F-117 has no comparison, but perhaps the Su-27 may have had more success than the F-15 as it was more advanced than 1991 (non-AESA/AMRAAM) F-15s.


su-27 of 1991 ? doubtful , F-15C with AIM-7M isn't it far more advanced than R-27 equipped su-27 [ which like AIM-7F at best]

plus soviet doctrine was not really designed for CAP by fighter aircraft


Not to mention that the Su-27's N001 radar is nowhere near as good as the F-15's APG-63/70.

Exactly isnt that the same essentially as mig29s
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weasel1962

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Unread post03 Jun 2020, 01:37

Same only in terms of generation, not in terms of capability. Mig-29 has a much smaller nose cone which means a smaller (and less powerful) radar. The Mig-29 uses the N019 radar.

A discussion about nose cone sizes quite a long time back.
viewtopic.php?t=8867
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nastle

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Unread post03 Jun 2020, 01:57

weasel1962 wrote:Same only in terms of generation, not in terms of capability. Mig-29 has a much smaller nose cone which means a smaller (and less powerful) radar. The Mig-29 uses the N019 radar.

A discussion about nose cone sizes quite a long time back.
viewtopic.php?t=8867

thanks for the correction but as far as I can recall it was still far behind western radars , more like that of a 3rd gen fighter
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zero-one

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Unread post03 Jun 2020, 16:35

Tiger05 wrote:Not to mention that the Su-27's N001 radar is nowhere near as good as the F-15's APG-63/70.


Okay, well lets talk about the Radars.
The Original N011 BARS from the Su-27 is stated to track up to 20 targets at a time and engage 8 of them, it is said to have an operational range of 400km against aerial targets when on EW mode and can detect fighter sized targets up to 140km head on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

Now The wiki page does not have the counterpart stat for the APG-63 but considering that the APG-63(v1) can only track 14 simultaneously and engage 6, I have to think that the OG APG-63 from 1973 could do considerably much less.

furthermore, according here,
http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/AN ... 63001.aspx
the APG-63 had a detection range of 90 km (target size and orientation unknown)

So I'm not saying the APG-63 is inferior to the N011, but at the same time saying the N011 is nowhere near as good seems to be a biased statement.
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Tiger05

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Unread post03 Jun 2020, 20:41

zero-one wrote:
Tiger05 wrote:Not to mention that the Su-27's N001 radar is nowhere near as good as the F-15's APG-63/70.


Okay, well lets talk about the Radars.
The Original N011 BARS from the Su-27 is stated to track up to 20 targets at a time and engage 8 of them, it is said to have an operational range of 400km against aerial targets when on EW mode and can detect fighter sized targets up to 140km head on.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bars_radar

Now The wiki page does not have the counterpart stat for the APG-63 but considering that the APG-63(v1) can only track 14 simultaneously and engage 6, I have to think that the OG APG-63 from 1973 could do considerably much less.

furthermore, according here,
http://www.deagel.com/Sensor-Systems/AN ... 63001.aspx
the APG-63 had a detection range of 90 km (target size and orientation unknown)

So I'm not saying the APG-63 is inferior to the N011, but at the same time saying the N011 is nowhere near as good seems to be a biased statement.


I was talking about the N001, not the N011 BARS. N001 was the Su-27's original radar and its performances have been discussed many times on this forum. The consensus was that is was inferior to comparable Western radars of the '70s-'80s.

The N011 BARS you mention was developed for the Su-27M (Su-35) if i am not mistaken and was nowhere near in service in 1991. In fact, the N001 itself was only accepted for service that year (1991), half a decade after Su-27 deliveries began.
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weasel1962

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Unread post04 Jun 2020, 03:47

Service entry may be a bit off as a gauge because of the Soviet Union collapse. The 1st flight of the Su-27M was 1988. What I understand is that the N011 (mechanically scanned version) first appeared on s/no 709 (or T-10M-9) prior to 1992 with the first 8 not spotting any radar. The phased array version was fitted onto the T-10M-11 and was shown in 1992/1993 but the first flight of the T-10M-11 was in 1996. The Su-27M started marketing from 1992 but I think history clearly shows what happened in the interim in relation to its service entry. Above is from memory so some of the info may be a bit off.
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pmi

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Unread post04 Jun 2020, 07:09

Tiger05 wrote:The US had U-2s and RF-4Cs (Air Force) and F-14 TARPS (Navy) in-theater during ODS for battlefield recon. So saying US battlefield commanders had no recon aircraft at their disposal and relied on satellites only for intel is grossly incorrect. And lets not forget about JSTARS... a revolutionary capability at the time and something the Soviets completely lacked.


EC-130, RC-135 & U-2/TR-1A were also used extensively in theater.

Drone coverage (albeit limited in area) was 24/7 with the Pioneer achieving fame filming Iraqis attempting to surrender to it.

The tactical picture of Iraqi troops in the KTA was very comprehensive.
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