Indonesia interested in 48 Rafale, 4 Scorpene and 2 Gowind

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by marsavian » 25 Jan 2020, 04:01

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 37339.html

The Indonesian Minister of Defense explained to France that his country wanted to arm itself to counter the Chinese threat. Jakarta is interested in 48 Rafale, up to 4 Scorpene and 2 Gowind.

According to concordant sources, Indonesia is interested in purchasing Rafale fighter planes (Dassault Aviation), Scorpene submarines and Gowind corvettes (Naval Group). The visit to Paris on Monday of the Minister of Defense of Indonesia, Prabowo Subianto, an ex-general reputed to be Francophile, was deemed constructive even if we must remain very cautious at this stage. Thus, the Indonesian minister was expected in stride in Hamburg at TKMS. Tensions with China are leading to rearmament of the countries bordering the China Sea. This is the case of Indonesia, which has deployed combat aircraft and warships around the Natuna Islands near the South China Sea.

According to sources interviewed by La Tribune, Jakarta is interested in 48 Rafale, up to 4 Scorpene submarines armed with Exocet SM39 missile and by two 2,500-ton Gowind corvettes. These purchases could be made through an intergovernmental agreement between France and Indonesia, which wishes to go quickly. In 10 years, Paris has sold 1.36 billion euros in military equipment to Jakarta, with a peak in 2013 (480 million euros). In that year, the missile MBDA had sold a very short-range surface-to-air weapon system (Mistral 3) for more than 200 million euros, and Nexter had placed 37 Caesar systems (115 million euros). The three-color groups can rely on the strategic partnership signed in 2011 between France and Indonesia.

Between two and four Scorpene

In 2015, the Indonesian Air Force bought 16 Sukhoi Su-35s to renew a squadron of old F-5E Tiger IIs, at the expense of the Rafale and the Eurofighter. Regarding the Scorpene submarines already sold in India and Malaysia, Indonesia has two French proposals: one relating to the sale of two submarines off the shelf and the other to the acquisition of four copies carried out as part of a technology transfer (ToT) with the Indonesian group PT PAL. A working group has already been set up between Naval Group and the Indonesian Navy.

Why does Indonesia still want to buy new submarines? The Indonesian navy has reportedly encountered serious problems with its Chang Bogo-class submarines produced by South Korea. It will cancel a contract signed with Daewoo Shipbuilding & Marine Engineering (DSME) and estimated at $ 1 billion for the construction of three additional submarines. French submarine technology is appreciated in Asia-Pacific, a region where Naval Group already has three customers in the submarine field (Malaysia, India and Australia).


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by Corsair1963 » 27 Jan 2020, 03:10

The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?


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by disconnectedradical » 27 Jan 2020, 06:54

Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?

Bettet than nothing. What, you want Indonesia to have F-35?? WTF?


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by Corsair1963 » 27 Jan 2020, 07:42

disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?

Bettet than nothing. What, you want Indonesia to have F-35?? WTF?



The Rafale would be no more effective against Chinese Stealth Fighters than any other 4.5 Generation Fighter. So, why spend so much more on the Rafale then???


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by wrightwing » 27 Jan 2020, 21:58

Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?

Apparently they aren't particularly impressed with the J-20/31.


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by Corsair1963 » 28 Jan 2020, 03:07

wrightwing wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?


Apparently they aren't particularly impressed with the J-20/31.



Apparently they have few real options... :wink:


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by wil59 » 28 Jan 2020, 12:45

Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?

Bettet than nothing. What, you want Indonesia to have F-35?? WTF?



The Rafale would be no more effective against Chinese Stealth Fighters than any other 4.5 Generation Fighter. So, why spend so much more on the Rafale then???
If you compare a plane that has no combat experience, and we may or may not have real information about these capabilities then I think you are writing that sh*t !. You know nothing of the real capabilities of the Rafale also only what Dassault wants you to take so from this point of view I would do as you see this article!
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... f-35-63377


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by vilters » 28 Jan 2020, 14:59

My operational trust in A2A missiles is, well, close to freezing point.

During planned tests in calibrated environments, all works well.

In actual combat? ? ?
You can not expect missiles that have hundreds of vibrating flight hrs on them to work as they do in tests.
Just be happy if they get off the rail. What happens afterwards has more to do with luck then tech.


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by Fox1 » 08 Feb 2021, 03:44

I'm not sure the Rafale would be my first choice if I were in Indonesia's position. It is certainly a good fighter with good capabilities. But it is incredibly pricey for something that is only marginally more capable than a late model F-16. That said, I'd rather have the Rafale than something made by Russia. Maybe the Rafale is the most capable aircraft they have access to? It is maneuverable, fairly powerful, has good avionics and can fire the Meteor. It would certainly be equal to or better than any of the non-5th Gen stuff China has. Still, the F-16 and F-18 offer similar capabilities at better prices. I just don't get why suddenly so many nations are buying the overpriced Rafale. Dassault must really be piling things thick in the sales brochures.


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by weasel1962 » 08 Feb 2021, 04:07

3 reasons I can think of. Meteor AAM, the extras & unilateral US embargo risk. There are some "extras" that make the F-16 better e.g. radar, EW, RAM paint, air combat training, simulators etc but aren't available to every user for what should be obvious reasons.

Don't think the Rafale is more capable than the later "extras all-in" F-16s. Rafale has lower TW. Doesn't have CFTs. Its AESA took a long time to develop and is not proven. Don't think the pods can match up to Sniper. The F-16 has a much bigger suite of cost effective munitions (including Israeli ones). Economically, it doesn't match the F-16s' economies of scale.

For the Rafale price, the current F-15s are better value for money imho. That's probably why the F-15 won the Singapore compete back in 2005. The Indians intentionally excluded the F-15 during their compete. For Indonesia, the F-15 approval appears to have came a bit too late.


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by Fox1 » 08 Feb 2021, 04:53

You are probably right. At any rate, I'm just happy to see that lots of nations in the Indo-Pacific region are at least paying attention to China's military buildup and increased assertiveness and are preparing by adding advanced western hardware (not Russian made) to their inventories. I suppose getting the Rafales as a package deal with the subs and corvettes could have also been the deal sealer. But I'll take any help we can get in that region right now. The stronger that south Asian nations can become military, the easier it will be for us to contain China. I hope they all go on a buying spree. I just hope they choose wisely.


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by icemaverick » 08 Feb 2021, 05:02

It’s the best option for Indonesia. It has an advanced radar, some sensor fusion, advanced electronic warfare capabilities, a reduced RCS and has a good A2A missile too. It also has pretty solid strike capabilities. Is it as good as the F-35? Probably not. But it’s the best option available to them.

F-16, Super Hornet, Typhoon and F-15EX could also be decent options but the Rafale makes more sense politically. France is very committed to the Rafale. The Typhoon program is very fragmented and uncertain. Indonesia doesn’t have bad relations with the USA but they’re not good enough for them to buy American fighters.

China’s stealth jets certainly look pretty formidable but Chinese aircraft are largely unproven so far. There is a decent chance the Rafale could be an effective platform against the J-20 and J-31.


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by Corsair1963 » 09 Feb 2021, 00:36

icemaverick wrote:It’s the best option for Indonesia. It has an advanced radar, some sensor fusion, advanced electronic warfare capabilities, a reduced RCS and has a good A2A missile too. It also has pretty solid strike capabilities. Is it as good as the F-35? Probably not. But it’s the best option available to them.

F-16, Super Hornet, Typhoon and F-15EX could also be decent options but the Rafale makes more sense politically. France is very committed to the Rafale. The Typhoon program is very fragmented and uncertain. Indonesia doesn’t have bad relations with the USA but they’re not good enough for them to buy American fighters.

China’s stealth jets certainly look pretty formidable but Chinese aircraft are largely unproven so far. There is a decent chance the Rafale could be an effective platform against the J-20 and J-31.



No, the KFX would be the best option..........Nor, is there a decent chance for the Rafale vs the J-20 and/or J-31 (J-35?).

(and there isn't any "probably" about it)


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by madrat » 09 Feb 2021, 04:23

Then it's settled. Order 48 KFX immediately... /head slap


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by element1loop » 09 Feb 2021, 04:33

Corsair1963 wrote:The Rafale won't be any help to Indonesia. If, that want to counter Chinese J-20's and J-31's.... :?


This is not a valid view, what matters is the regional context in which Indonesia in an air and naval fight with China, instigated by Chinese expansionist aggression, Indonesia would be working in close cooperation with Australia, Singapore, the rest of SEA, and probably US forces. Many of them operating from Australia, and probably a couple of other locations within SEA also, as required.

Depending on the circumstances, it's also likely that in a real fight with China, Singapore and Indonesia may operate from Australia, for a time, to better preserve their forces and remain in the game to cause the PLAAF and PLAN as much pain as possible for minimal losses. There's no way Australia would stay out of a fight if China attacked Indonesia. So an Indonesian Rafale force needs be viewed in high-end regional context. They would be getting tactical air data and support from RAAF in that case, if not tactical operating rights, and a close coalition for the duration.

In that light this Indonesian choice makes a lot of sense, I think with the right structure and support it can become a very effective force in a 2030s in and air-war in SEA or South China Sea. Certainly it is a massively better and smarter option than buying more Russian fighters.

It's also rather unlikely the French would stay out of such a fight against China, in SEA, as their South Pacific territories are prized strategic assets, and they will support Australia in a fight to make sure those are preserved in French control. The RAF would show up also, and probably operate from Australia with FARPs or combat support. So Indonesia would be far from fighting alone, there would be literally hundreds of strikefighters operating from Australia in that case, many of them 5th-gen or 4.5-ish, and probably some US bombers and fighters in the fight too.

PLAAF and PLAN would get absolutely monkey-hammered, they can't sink Australia, and with 200 LRASMs and good allies plus F-35s, they can't take Australia out of the fight either, which makes Indonesia defend-able against China with 48 x Rafale. A vastly better capability than the fighters they currently have, and they will finally have a proper precision long-range strike capability. To me that's a very welcome development.
Accel + Alt + VLO + DAS + MDF + Radial Distance = LIFE . . . Always choose Stealth


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