Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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jedit

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Unread post28 Apr 2019, 20:41

tomtom wrote:
pagan wrote:Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.



No you can't see any obvious differences. No F-16 has that type of construction. Think about it? There are plenty of F-16 maintainers, pilots and builders on this forum. Explain why no person from the F-16 community has matched up that piece to an F-16 construction? Your claim that debris shows an F-16 tail hook is complete and utter non-sense! It is just laughable and comes from this non-sense post on Twitter.

I post it to show how ludicrous the claim and desperate attempt at match up is.

https://twitter.com/sayareakd/status/11 ... 1698814976


At this point Indians are clutching at straws. There are youtube warriors posting analyses of the videos shot on mobile suggesting exact trajectory of the jets, missiles and possible crash site of F16. If Pakistan lost an F16 and managed to hide it, it is a bigger achievement than shooting down the Mig 21.

If someone tells an Indian today Balakot strikes failed, they say well why did Pakistan hit back so quickly. Isn't it evidence it hurt them because Balakot strike caused real damage. No! It was an escalation by hitting sovereign Pakistani territory and no way on earth were they going to let that pass.

If someone tells an Indian no F16 was shot, they say, well Pakistanis said 3 pilots, well there are equally sound theories behind that as the Indian theories about F16 pilots.

- Pakistani statement was '2 jets down, 1 pilot captured, 2 in area'. This lines with narrative Pakistan wanted to put across that they shot a single seater (of course the mig 21) and a 2 seater (they wanted to claim a Su30).
- Then they said, 1 pilot captured, other in hospital. That could very well be an overlapping of reports of same pilot from 2 different sources. There are pictures of that lone mig 21 pilot Abhinandan being treated in Pakistani hospital.

Pakistan had equal potential of putting up some power point presentation of Su30 they claimed to have hit, yet they refrained from putting up something for which they had no concrete evidence just like India had no 'hard' evidence of an F16 downing. Pakistan had enough to show, a mig 21, a pilot, and video of a Mi17 shot down allegedly by Indian Air Defense itself.
One question, had India shot down 2 or 3 Pakistani jets in its territory, would this now infamous F16 have been an issue? Would IAF had desperately arranged 2,3 pressers and invited 'Indian' journalists in for briefings.. Ask yourself.
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 00:44

tomtom wrote:
pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.


No F-16 has that type of ribbed construction. The claim that the debris is from an F-16 is as bad as the people claiming the 800 litre fuel tank from the MiG-21 is an F-16 fuel tank. Sadly you are just clutching at straws in believing that bit of debris shows the tail/tail hook of an F-16. You are failing to understand that the exterior of that part with the smoothness is part of the engine heat shield on the MiG-21. Again no F-16 has that type of ribbed construction whereas the MiG-21 does.

Explain why the Indian Air Force hasn't given a briefing on that part of the debris just like they did with the radar and intelligence picture? It is because even they know a part from a MiG-21 when they see it. Again no F-16 has that type of construction. Also what you and others see as a "tail hook" is simply a stringer part of the fuselage as used on the MiG-21. If you think that is a tail hook from an F-16 then sadly you are deluding yourself!


Exactly. Unfortunately you’re wasting your time trying to reason with these Indian trolls who, after losing the argument resort to insults. Nobody from a neutral vantage point would lend any credibility to their debunked pics of an alleged crashed F-16 ‘part’. At this point they might as well present an F-16 debris pic from a Hollywood movie as ‘evidence’, that’d still be more convincing than the mig 21 debris they’re trying to pass of as an F-16, even after allowing for the fact that it’s from a movie lol.

What’s even more hilarious is that the Western Air Command Head was made to ‘resign’ from service the very next day from the IAF even though he was the first commander in history who’s pilot bagged an f-16 using a mig 21. But hey Pakistanis are just spreading propaganda against India. I guess Indian prime minister Modi must be a Pakistani too since he said within days that ‘whole nation is wondering what could have happened if we had Rafale’ lmao .
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 02:59

mair wrote:
tomtom wrote:
pagan wrote:There is clear evidence about F-16 parts in PAF Green on the Ground.

http://www.paf.gov.pk/wallpapers/f_164.jpg

Official PAF Website

https://twitter.com/anshumig/status/1115635043085443072

Picture of on the ground debris with the F-16 tailhook.

https://twitter.com/bennedose/status/11 ... 0372850690
Video with Pakistani military personnel removing the part, with the smooth dark green exterior surface in the exact color scheme as the official PAF F-16 Wallpaper.

Any one who has worked with MiG21s knows its exterior is full of rivets.

We are living in a world of systematic misinformation but the truths shall prevail.

What is funny is that no one has asked why the Pakistani PM and DGISPR gave press conferences about two planes down and multiple pilots, only to retract them later.


No F-16 has that type of ribbed construction. The claim that the debris is from an F-16 is as bad as the people claiming the 800 litre fuel tank from the MiG-21 is an F-16 fuel tank. Sadly you are just clutching at straws in believing that bit of debris shows the tail/tail hook of an F-16. You are failing to understand that the exterior of that part with the smoothness is part of the engine heat shield on the MiG-21. Again no F-16 has that type of ribbed construction whereas the MiG-21 does.

Explain why the Indian Air Force hasn't given a briefing on that part of the debris just like they did with the radar and intelligence picture? It is because even they know a part from a MiG-21 when they see it. Again no F-16 has that type of construction. Also what you and others see as a "tail hook" is simply a stringer part of the fuselage as used on the MiG-21. If you think that is a tail hook from an F-16 then sadly you are deluding yourself!


Exactly. Unfortunately you’re wasting your time trying to reason with these Indian trolls who, after losing the argument resort to insults. Nobody from a neutral vantage point would lend any credibility to their debunked pics of an alleged crashed F-16 ‘part’. At this point they might as well present an F-16 debris pic from a Hollywood movie as ‘evidence’, that’d still be more convincing than the mig 21 debris they’re trying to pass of as an F-16, even after allowing for the fact that it’s from a movie lol.

What’s even more hilarious is that the Western Air Command Head was made to ‘resign’ from service the very next day from the IAF even though he was the first commander in history who’s pilot bagged an f-16 using a mig 21. But hey Pakistanis are just spreading propaganda against India. I guess Indian prime minister Modi must be a Pakistani too since he said within days that ‘whole nation is wondering what could have happened if we had Rafale’ lmao .

Pl pedal this fake news in your home forum PDF, the western Air chief retired as per norms on completion of his service. This is not Pakistan where the army chiefs can extend their tenure or take over the country at their whim.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiat ... 2019-03-01

So the paks here running out of logical answers are resorting to pedalling fake news. Typical.
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jedit

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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 04:10

vm wrote:Pl pedal this fake news in your home forum PDF, the western Air chief retired as per norms on completion of his service. This is not Pakistan where the army chiefs can extend their tenure or take over the country at their whim.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiat ... 2019-03-01

So the paks here running out of logical answers are resorting to pedalling fake news. Typical.


Granted the western command chief might have retired but right now, there are fundamental issues with Indian narrative about F16.

- Mig 21 was shot down in Pakistani held territory, India couldn't deny and get away with it. They released a statement saying they are 'ascertaining facts' originally but of course the evidence was overwhelming. Pakistan couldn't prevent 'hard' evidence from leaking out (not that they would've wanted anyway).

- Mi 17 was shot down in Indian controlled territory, India could not hide it as evidence was outed by civilians within minutes. India couldn't prevent evidence from leaking out (even if they would've desperately wanted to). India has in the past blocked internet and telephones in Kashmir to prevent free flow of news, yet they didn't bother (good thing).

- If F16 was shot down, how did Pakistan manage to not only deny it, hide the wreckage, prevent videos and images from leaking, stop US from shooting down their stance, build general consensus among neutral (not Indian or Pakistani) journalists around its narrative, and publicly mock Indian narrative so brutally.

- India could allegedly see 3 missile impact marks 2 feet across each on the Balakot building's roof, yet they couldn't find a 47 ft smoking F16 wreckage in an area where they are known to fly drones, and have their best satellites surveillance. There is a reason no neutral expert on the F16 agrees with the Indian narrative.

- IAF claimed irrefutable evidence and what was it, jpeg images in a presentation. Only an ultrapatriotic Indian journalist would call it irrefutable evidence. Irrefutable by definition is something no one could realistically deny, yet majority of neutrals still doesn't buy Indian narrative and there is nothing Indians can show to say they're wrong. They are comfortably hiding behind cloak of 'security' reasons yet their compatriots are sleepless trying to prove an F16 crash that from lack of evidence appears to have never happened.

My two cents:

- 2 months in, and IAF doesn't have an exact answer to the question 'what happened to the Mi17' for which they control all factors i.e territory over which it was shot, entire plane wreckage, black box, pilots, radar, missile batteries that allegedly shot the plane, yet they claim 'irrefutable' evidence of a F16 from day 1 where the alleged wreckage, pilot/s, shooting jet Mig 21, missiles or remnants are all held by Pakistan. If Indians do not find this flawed and buy this, its fine, patriotism and nationalism causes this, but neutrals can see through this.

- India could have been better off claiming they shot a JF17 because its something only Pakistan and China share and both countries are adversarial in different degrees to India. But, they had nothing but an AMRAAM shrapnel (only launched off F6) to show as face saver against 2 confirmed downed planes (mig 21 and Mi 17) of its own with multiple precious lives lost directly linked to this air skirmish. That apparent 'no use of F16' rhetoric from Pakistani spokesman was the only hole in the audacious retaliation by Pakistan that they could exploit (with evidence) by fully focusing on use and shooting down of F16. Yet, use of F16 doesn't really translate to shooting down of F16 as both claims need to be proved separately.

Peace!
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 13:24

jedit wrote:
vm wrote:Pl pedal this fake news in your home forum PDF, the western Air chief retired as per norms on completion of his service. This is not Pakistan where the army chiefs can extend their tenure or take over the country at their whim.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.indiat ... 2019-03-01

So the paks here running out of logical answers are resorting to pedalling fake news. Typical.


Granted the western command chief might have retired but right now, there are fundamental issues with Indian narrative about F16.

- Mig 21 was shot down in Pakistani held territory, India couldn't deny and get away with it. They released a statement saying they are 'ascertaining facts' originally but of course the evidence was overwhelming. Pakistan couldn't prevent 'hard' evidence from leaking out (not that they would've wanted anyway).

- Mi 17 was shot down in Indian controlled territory, India could not hide it as evidence was outed by civilians within minutes. India couldn't prevent evidence from leaking out (even if they would've desperately wanted to). India has in the past blocked internet and telephones in Kashmir to prevent free flow of news, yet they didn't bother (good thing).

- If F16 was shot down, how did Pakistan manage to not only deny it, hide the wreckage, prevent videos and images from leaking, stop US from shooting down their stance, build general consensus among neutral (not Indian or Pakistani) journalists around its narrative, and publicly mock Indian narrative so brutally.

- India could allegedly see 3 missile impact marks 2 feet across each on the Balakot building's roof, yet they couldn't find a 47 ft smoking F16 wreckage in an area where they are known to fly drones, and have their best satellites surveillance. There is a reason no neutral expert on the F16 agrees with the Indian narrative.

- IAF claimed irrefutable evidence and what was it, jpeg images in a presentation. Only an ultrapatriotic Indian journalist would call it irrefutable evidence. Irrefutable by definition is something no one could realistically deny, yet majority of neutrals still doesn't buy Indian narrative and there is nothing Indians can show to say they're wrong. They are comfortably hiding behind cloak of 'security' reasons yet their compatriots are sleepless trying to prove an F16 crash that from lack of evidence appears to have never happened.

My two cents:

- 2 months in, and IAF doesn't have an exact answer to the question 'what happened to the Mi17' for which they control all factors i.e territory over which it was shot, entire plane wreckage, black box, pilots, radar, missile batteries that allegedly shot the plane, yet they claim 'irrefutable' evidence of a F16 from day 1 where the alleged wreckage, pilot/s, shooting jet Mig 21, missiles or remnants are all held by Pakistan. If Indians do not find this flawed and buy this, its fine, patriotism and nationalism causes this, but neutrals can see through this.

- India could have been better off claiming they shot a JF17 because its something only Pakistan and China share and both countries are adversarial in different degrees to India. But, they had nothing but an AMRAAM shrapnel (only launched off F6) to show as face saver against 2 confirmed downed planes (mig 21 and Mi 17) of its own with multiple precious lives lost directly linked to this air skirmish. That apparent 'no use of F16' rhetoric from Pakistani spokesman was the only hole in the audacious retaliation by Pakistan that they could exploit (with evidence) by fully focusing on use and shooting down of F16. Yet, use of F16 doesn't really translate to shooting down of F16 as both claims need to be proved separately.

Peace!

India has stood by its official statements and not changed them. It has tried to give the evidence it can but since balakot is in Pakistan, and for what ever reason pak army is suspiciously wary about giving access to the "uneffected" madrassa, there will be a question mark on the Pakistani version.
Similarly f16 has been shot down in Pakistan and we know that the Pakistan is a army state, the truth will take time to come out. Remember kargil in 1999. Pakistan has till now not acknowledged it was a army operation and it lost 4000 soldiers.
In the mean time, the ispr Baghdad Bob has changed his statements so many times, it's tragic.
Even today he claimed to have shot down 2 iaf planes, which as per him "everyone" has seen. Not the helio, planes.
He first said 2 pilots are in custody. This was repeated by the pak PM after 7 hours in Pakistan parliament.
Then ispr head said 1 pilot.
Then said in a TV interview that 1 is dead.
So again backtracked.
He is more of a internet warrior than a official spokesperson.
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 13:43

To me, it is still an open question what has happened -- perhaps the F-16 was shot down, perhaps not. Perhaps IAF is lying; but then again, perhaps Pakistan is lying. I think we still do not know.
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Unread post29 Apr 2019, 14:54

loke wrote:To me, it is still an open question what has happened -- perhaps the F-16 was shot down, perhaps not. Perhaps IAF is lying; but then again, perhaps Pakistan is lying. I think we still do not know.


What tangible, based in reality(not the nonsense Indian propaganda about F-16 sales) credible reason could there possibly be for Lara Seligman and Foreign policy to lie? In all seriousness after that publication the probability of a downed F-16 decreased exponentially. The very fact that the IAF felt the need to conduct a press briefing with evidence displayed that they initially refused to present, actually decreases the probability even further. Since they basically conceded that maintaining one specific narrative was very important to them, I.e that they had every motive to lie to maintain said narrative. Being able to change ones position in light of new evidence is a sign of free inquiry and honesty, while clinging onto a pre conceived or hastily conceived version of events, and doubling down on them in the face of contradictory evidence is a sign of dishonesty.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 06:22

basher54321 wrote:
pagan wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.




Okay so the photos you have shown don't change anything from as they were months back. If you had seen an F-16 up close or even spent time modelling one there are externally identifiable rivets, panel lines, and markings (writing) - yes even on the parts you think are smooth.

If that video had not been shot with such a poor camera phone we would be able to make some of the detail out - but as it stands there is nothing - not even one identifiable feature. The internal structure would suggest it is not an F-16 and with a high res camera you would be seeing lines and rivets etc on the external side I can assure you.


There is an entire video where that part is put on a truck; please go and find it for yourself (you probably have seen it)

The tailhook is clearly visible in the picture.

The color of the tub exactly matches the PAF F-16 color scheme. More importantly no IAF aircraft has that color.

There are NO ribs longitudinally in the F-16 tub picture; the surface is smooth though ribbed. The Mig21 clearly shows elevated ribs in the longitudinal direction.

Video evidence shows a PA Bell Jetranger flying in for SAR after the battle.

And then of course is the question of the other pilots where both DGISPR and the PM Khan claimed in parliament.

What is surprising here is the loss-of-face type of attitude which I see here. To any sane follower of air-warfare what happened there is nothing extraordinary; but somehow the PAF fans here can not accept that.

The USAF noted that the Mig21 bison when managed properly is a tough nut to crack. This is exactly what happened that day; it was not visible to PAF AWACS till it cleared the 15000 ft Pir Panjal range, and then had a clear path at the PAF F-16s making the bombing runs.

WingCo Abhi decided that he would risk crossing the LoC in pursuit and was able to use his situational advantage to land the R73 on the F-16s flying back into Pakistani territory.

As the lone-ranger in hostile territory it was an easy target to the PAF Falcons flying the higher altitude sweeps who let go of their weapon after they knew that the area was free of friendlies (Falcon down).

No one has one good reason why the Mig21 Bison from the ORP would fly 10Km into Pakistani airspace unless it had something special to go after. Or why there are so many videos of two planes going down.

What I find truly disheartening is that that Pakistani military simply refuses to honor its war-dead. Whether it was Kargil or these brave pilots, the disgraceful record of disowning their warriors is so sad. But then when you have a senior leadership which has no qualms in deploying 24 aircraft attack package in response to a strike on a global recognized terror organization then there is not much left to say.
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FromBishwa.jpg
Tailhook, Smooth interior with no ribs of bathtub
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 06:38

pagan wrote:
basher54321 wrote:
pagan wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.




Okay so the photos you have shown don't change anything from as they were months back. If you had seen an F-16 up close or even spent time modelling one there are externally identifiable rivets, panel lines, and markings (writing) - yes even on the parts you think are smooth.

If that video had not been shot with such a poor camera phone we would be able to make some of the detail out - but as it stands there is nothing - not even one identifiable feature. The internal structure would suggest it is not an F-16 and with a high res camera you would be seeing lines and rivets etc on the external side I can assure you.


There is an entire video where that part is put on a truck; please go and find it for yourself (you probably have seen it)

The tailhook is clearly visible in the picture.

The color of the tub exactly matches the PAF F-16 color scheme. More importantly no IAF aircraft has that color.

There are NO ribs longitudinally in the F-16 tub picture; the surface is smooth though ribbed. The Mig21 clearly shows elevated ribs in the longitudinal direction.

Video evidence shows a PA Bell Jetranger flying in for SAR after the battle.

And then of course is the question of the other pilots where both DGISPR and the PM Khan claimed in parliament.

What is surprising here is the loss-of-face type of attitude which I see here. To any sane follower of air-warfare what happened there is nothing extraordinary; but somehow the PAF fans here can not accept that.

The USAF noted that the Mig21 bison when managed properly is a tough nut to crack. This is exactly what happened that day; it was not visible to PAF AWACS till it cleared the 15000 ft Pir Panjal range, and then had a clear path at the PAF F-16s making the bombing runs.

WingCo Abhi decided that he would risk crossing the LoC in pursuit and was able to use his situational advantage to land the R73 on the F-16s flying back into Pakistani territory.

As the lone-ranger in hostile territory it was an easy target to the PAF Falcons flying the higher altitude sweeps who let go of their weapon after they knew that the area was free of friendlies (Falcon down).

No one has one good reason why the Mig21 Bison from the ORP would fly 10Km into Pakistani airspace unless it had something special to go after. Or why there are so many videos of two planes going down.

What I find truly disheartening is that that Pakistani military simply refuses to honor its war-dead. Whether it was Kargil or these brave pilots, the disgraceful record of disowning their warriors is so sad. But then when you have a senior leadership which has no qualms in deploying 24 aircraft attack package in response to a strike on a global recognized terror organization then there is not much left to say.


You have no idea what your talking about.....THAT WRECKAGE IS NOT FROM A PAKISTANI F-16. If, you had a once of knowledge on the subject you would know that.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 07:06

pagan wrote:The tailhook is clearly visible in the picture.

The color of the tub exactly matches the PAF F-16 color scheme. More importantly no IAF aircraft has that color.

There are NO ribs longitudinally in the F-16 tub picture; the surface is smooth though ribbed. The Mig21 clearly shows elevated ribs in the longitudinal.

There is longtitudinally rib in the wreck, you are unwilling to see it but it is there.
FC096727-B2D9-4414-AAD7-AFCC925B5FC5.jpeg
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 12:26

pagan wrote:
basher54321 wrote:
pagan wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.




Okay so the photos you have shown don't change anything from as they were months back. If you had seen an F-16 up close or even spent time modelling one there are externally identifiable rivets, panel lines, and markings (writing) - yes even on the parts you think are smooth.

If that video had not been shot with such a poor camera phone we would be able to make some of the detail out - but as it stands there is nothing - not even one identifiable feature. The internal structure would suggest it is not an F-16 and with a high res camera you would be seeing lines and rivets etc on the external side I can assure you.


There is an entire video where that part is put on a truck; please go and find it for yourself (you probably have seen it)

The tailhook is clearly visible in the picture.

The color of the tub exactly matches the PAF F-16 color scheme. More importantly no IAF aircraft has that color.

There are NO ribs longitudinally in the F-16 tub picture; the surface is smooth though ribbed. The Mig21 clearly shows elevated ribs in the longitudinal direction.

Video evidence shows a PA Bell Jetranger flying in for SAR after the battle.

And then of course is the question of the other pilots where both DGISPR and the PM Khan claimed in parliament.

What is surprising here is the loss-of-face type of attitude which I see here. To any sane follower of air-warfare what happened there is nothing extraordinary; but somehow the PAF fans here can not accept that.

The USAF noted that the Mig21 bison when managed properly is a tough nut to crack. This is exactly what happened that day; it was not visible to PAF AWACS till it cleared the 15000 ft Pir Panjal range, and then had a clear path at the PAF F-16s making the bombing runs.

WingCo Abhi decided that he would risk crossing the LoC in pursuit and was able to use his situational advantage to land the R73 on the F-16s flying back into Pakistani territory.

As the lone-ranger in hostile territory it was an easy target to the PAF Falcons flying the higher altitude sweeps who let go of their weapon after they knew that the area was free of friendlies (Falcon down).

No one has one good reason why the Mig21 Bison from the ORP would fly 10Km into Pakistani airspace unless it had something special to go after. Or why there are so many videos of two planes going down.

What I find truly disheartening is that that Pakistani military simply refuses to honor its war-dead. Whether it was Kargil or these brave pilots, the disgraceful record of disowning their warriors is so sad. But then when you have a senior leadership which has no qualms in deploying 24 aircraft attack package in response to a strike on a global recognized terror organization then there is not much left to say.


The Americans have actually checked the entire PAF F16 fleet and have confirmed that all F16 are accounted for and non are missing. So all the Indian media hyperbole about shooting down a PAF Viper is face saving "alternative facts" for the Indian population. The reality is that the Mig21 was shot down by a PAF JF17.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 12:52

]

The Americans have actually checked the entire PAF F16 fleet and have confirmed that all F16 are accounted for and non are missing. So all the Indian media hyperbole about shooting down a PAF Viper is face saving "alternative facts" for the Indian population. The reality is that the Mig21 was shot down by a PAF JF17.[/quote]
Could you give a official American source?
No anonymous ones.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 13:45

pagan wrote:...


As your post demonstrates yet again there is no evidence conclusively identifying even a single part of an F-16 from that wreckage not in those photos or the video as I just told you. If you have high res versions of these videos then now is the time to post them seriously.

We need actual identifying features - rivets , markings and panel lines - not wishful thinking. A blurry image from a camera phone with zero identifying features is not evidence. A couple of holes in a piece of wreckage with construction and coating matching a MiG-21 and not an F-16 is not evidence at all - sorry.

Iam sure you really want to believe it but you really need to start doing much better to be taken seriously.
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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 21:07

pagan wrote:
basher54321 wrote:
pagan wrote:
Thanks for sharing the picture.

If you look closely you can see the obvious differences.

In the PAF F-16 the interior surface has joints but is smooth; i.e. the panels run longitudinally but there is no elevated rib between the individual units as seen in the Serbian MiG21 in the longitudinal direction.

If you watch the video from Serbia, the exterior side of the panel has rivets. The PAF F-16 panel has smooth exterior.

Then there is the whole issue of the paint/color matching the PAF F-16 color scheme, and the tailhook (with the opening) which is a fit with the F-16 bathtub panel.




Okay so the photos you have shown don't change anything from as they were months back. If you had seen an F-16 up close or even spent time modelling one there are externally identifiable rivets, panel lines, and markings (writing) - yes even on the parts you think are smooth.

If that video had not been shot with such a poor camera phone we would be able to make some of the detail out - but as it stands there is nothing - not even one identifiable feature. The internal structure would suggest it is not an F-16 and with a high res camera you would be seeing lines and rivets etc on the external side I can assure you.


There is an entire video where that part is put on a truck; please go and find it for yourself (you probably have seen it)

The tailhook is clearly visible in the picture.

The color of the tub exactly matches the PAF F-16 color scheme. More importantly no IAF aircraft has that color.

There are NO ribs longitudinally in the F-16 tub picture; the surface is smooth though ribbed. The Mig21 clearly shows elevated ribs in the longitudinal direction.

Video evidence shows a PA Bell Jetranger flying in for SAR after the battle.

And then of course is the question of the other pilots where both DGISPR and the PM Khan claimed in parliament.

What is surprising here is the loss-of-face type of attitude which I see here. To any sane follower of air-warfare what happened there is nothing extraordinary; but somehow the PAF fans here can not accept that.

The USAF noted that the Mig21 bison when managed properly is a tough nut to crack. This is exactly what happened that day; it was not visible to PAF AWACS till it cleared the 15000 ft Pir Panjal range, and then had a clear path at the PAF F-16s making the bombing runs.

WingCo Abhi decided that he would risk crossing the LoC in pursuit and was able to use his situational advantage to land the R73 on the F-16s flying back into Pakistani territory.

As the lone-ranger in hostile territory it was an easy target to the PAF Falcons flying the higher altitude sweeps who let go of their weapon after they knew that the area was free of friendlies (Falcon down).

No one has one good reason why the Mig21 Bison from the ORP would fly 10Km into Pakistani airspace unless it had something special to go after. Or why there are so many videos of two planes going down.

What I find truly disheartening is that that Pakistani military simply refuses to honor its war-dead. Whether it was Kargil or these brave pilots, the disgraceful record of disowning their warriors is so sad. But then when you have a senior leadership which has no qualms in deploying 24 aircraft attack package in response to a strike on a global recognized terror organization then there is not much left to say.


That attempted match up to an F-16 tail hook is completely laughable. No F-16 has that ribbed construction and that is no tail hook. It is as bad as 800 litre MiG-21 external fuel tank that was found at the same location being claimed as an F-16 fuel tank. You haven't a clue what you are talking about. That ribbed construction is from a MiG-21. Explain why no F-16 can be shown to have that type of construction when it clearly matches the ribbed construction of a MiG-21. The claim of that being an F-16 tail hook is just - well clutching at straws! :doh:
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loke

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Unread post30 Apr 2019, 22:45

mair wrote:
loke wrote:To me, it is still an open question what has happened -- perhaps the F-16 was shot down, perhaps not. Perhaps IAF is lying; but then again, perhaps Pakistan is lying. I think we still do not know.


What tangible, based in reality(not the nonsense Indian propaganda about F-16 sales) credible reason could there possibly be for Lara Seligman and Foreign policy to lie?

Where did I say the FP journo was lying?

I did not. IF the FP journo is wrong then most likely she was being manipulated.

In other news, the locals have seen traces of the yeti:

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 107428.cms

IMHO the credibility of both India and Pakistan is very low... thus I am hesitant to draw any conclusions until a more reliable source (not just an anonymous leak) can comment on the F-16 dispute.

In the meantime, I suggest we all try to find some Yetis. Could be more exciting.
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