Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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fullonlockon

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 06:02

That's a largely metal hanger structure and completely different from a concrete building as found in Pakistan that blows up when bombed. The hanger get sustain bombs while the building remains fairly intact. A mostly concrete building cannot.

Whoever tried to make this comparison first has no idea about the basics of building structures and bomb damage.
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pagan

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 07:41

fullonlockon wrote:That's a largely metal hanger structure and completely different from a concrete building as found in Pakistan that blows up when bombed. The hanger get sustain bombs while the building remains fairly intact. A mostly concrete building cannot.

Whoever tried to make this comparison first has no idea about the basics of building structures and bomb damage.


It all depends on the number of windows doors and other openings. which can release the pressure. The soot marks outside the buildings show that the fireball was not contained inside the buildings but had vents to release the pressure.

Traditionally blast resistant buildings were made of concrete, it is only in the past two decades that steel based structures have come into vogue.

http://wm.mbindustries.com/blast-rated- ... -concrete/
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madrat

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 13:07

This thread turned to mush.
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vm

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 14:39

fullonlockon wrote:That's a largely metal hanger structure and completely different from a concrete building as found in Pakistan that blows up when bombed. The hanger get sustain bombs while the building remains fairly intact. A mostly concrete building cannot.

Whoever tried to make this comparison first has no idea about the basics of building structures and bomb damage.

Pakistan Army has unnecessarily let this controversy fester. As their official spokesperson had promised, they should have just let the media into the compound and everything would be black and white. Wonder what they were afraid to show.??
Also it seems usa is now tightening the screws on pakustan for its support to terrorist organisations like jaish.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemi ... 14923.html

"China has urged the US not to forcefully move a draft resolution at UNSC to designate Masood Azhar a global terrorist.
US steps up efforts to blacklist Masood Azhar, forcing China’s hand
28 Mar 2019
Elizabeth Roche
US resolution at UNSC aims to designate Masood Azhar a terrorist and subject him to an arms embargo, travel ban and asset freeze
The world cannot afford China’s shameful hypocrisy toward Muslims, tweets US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo".
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eloise

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 02:37

Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.

ndia’s claim that one of its fighter pilots shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet in an aerial battle between the two nuclear powers in February appears to be wrong. Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabad’s F-16s and found none missing.

The findings directly contradict the account of Indian Air Force officials, who said that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16 before his own plane was downed by a Pakistani missile.

It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhi’s version of events, suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international community about what happened that day.

The news comes just days before the start of India’s general elections, in which Prime Minister Narendra Modi is seeking another term in office. In the weeks leading up to the election, tensions between India and Pakistan escalated to levels not seen in decades after a Pakistan-based militant group killed more than 40 Indian security officers in a Feb. 14 suicide bombing in India-controlled Kashmir. Both sides have been accused of spreading disinformation and fanning nationalistic flames.

Although the news likely won’t sway Indian voters, Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at MIT, said the way the events have unfolded may affect India’s efforts to deter Pakistan in the future.

“As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,” Narang said. “It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process.”

The dogfight between the two nations occurred on Feb. 27, when India says a group of Pakistani jets entered its airspace in response to the first Indian air raid on Pakistani territory since a 1971 war. India scrambled its own jets and gave chase. During the aerial battle that ensued, Varthaman took a missile hit and ejected safely into Pakistani territory.

He was captured by the Pakistani army and released days later in an effort to de-escalate the crisis.

One of the senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the count said that Pakistan invited the United States to physically count its F-16 planes after the incident as part of an end-user agreement signed when the foreign military sale was finalized. Generally in such agreements, the United States requires the receiving country to allow U.S. officials to inspect the equipment regularly to ensure it is accounted for and protected.

Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said.

But now the count has been completed, and “all aircraft were present and accounted for,” the official said.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... HQbrW2v6yM
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fullonlockon

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 03:25

Everyone secretly already knew this (except for Indians and Tom Cooper) but good to see it publically validated.
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vm

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 11:14

"Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said."

The conflict was on the 27th of Feb and it took Pakistan 5 weeks to grant access as per this MEDIA report ?
Accepting this media report for arguments sake, their is a common thread in pakistan's denying access to the planes and the terrorist compound immediately after the conflict.
Why were the planes unavailable for inspection, its not as if Pakistan has hundreds of defence airports ? They have just 18v, with not all housing f16s. Hardly a day's work.
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mair

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 11:16

eloise wrote:Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.

ndia’s claim that one of its fighter pilots shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet in an aerial battle between the two nuclear powers in February appears to be wrong. Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabad’s F-16s and found none missing.

The findings directly contradict the account of Indian Air Force officials, who said that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16 before his own plane was downed by a Pakistani missile.

It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhi’s version of events, suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international community about what happened that day.

The news comes just days before the start of India’s general elections, in which Prime Minister Narendra Modi is seeking another term in office. In the weeks leading up to the election, tensions between India and Pakistan escalated to levels not seen in decades after a Pakistan-based militant group killed more than 40 Indian security officers in a Feb. 14 suicide bombing in India-controlled Kashmir. Both sides have been accused of spreading disinformation and fanning nationalistic flames.

Although the news likely won’t sway Indian voters, Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at MIT, said the way the events have unfolded may affect India’s efforts to deter Pakistan in the future.

“As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,” Narang said. “It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process.”

The dogfight between the two nations occurred on Feb. 27, when India says a group of Pakistani jets entered its airspace in response to the first Indian air raid on Pakistani territory since a 1971 war. India scrambled its own jets and gave chase. During the aerial battle that ensued, Varthaman took a missile hit and ejected safely into Pakistani territory.

He was captured by the Pakistani army and released days later in an effort to de-escalate the crisis.

One of the senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the count said that Pakistan invited the United States to physically count its F-16 planes after the incident as part of an end-user agreement signed when the foreign military sale was finalized. Generally in such agreements, the United States requires the receiving country to allow U.S. officials to inspect the equipment regularly to ensure it is accounted for and protected.

Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said.

But now the count has been completed, and “all aircraft were present and accounted for,” the official said.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... HQbrW2v6yM


Indian news channel NDTV said that foreign policy news outlet has a good reputation. I think that more or less settles this: no f16s were shot down on the 27th of Feb.
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mair

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 11:18

vm wrote:"Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said."

The conflict was on the 27th of Feb and it took Pakistan 5 weeks to grant access as per this MEDIA report ?
Accepting this media report for arguments sake, their is a common thread in pakistan's denying access to the planes and the terrorist compound immediately after the conflict.
Why were the planes unavailable for inspection, its not as if Pakistan has hundreds of defence airports ? They have just 18v, with not all housing f16s. Hardly a day's work.


In the extra days they managed to smuggle in an extra F16 jet? That sounds believable?
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basher54321

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 13:33

Interesting Eloise thanks - lets see if those source names come out of the bag.



fullonlockon wrote:Everyone secretly already knew this (except for Indians and Tom Cooper) but good to see it publically validated.



Unfortunately the only people who could know for certain would be Pakistan and US defence contractors at the end of the day. I can't speak for Tom Cooper but he will take the best available sourced information, and that should not include things such as rumour, wishful thinking and secret thoughts from people who don't know.


India made a claim very early on (same time as announcing the MiG-21 loss IIRC) and they really might genuinely think they have something - however there is an entire history of aerial conflict to look at that will show you how difficult this can be - even Gun Camera film has not always provided the answer.


Verbal callsigns - you can go back to WWII - and everyone knew the other side was listening in so you use codes to subvert and deceive. (Bolo in Nam one example)

Electronic SigInt/ComInt (AWACs etc) can be wrong and again subverted especially if only based on signals gathered during peacetime.

The Pilot can be wrong - how many times have pilots simply never had a clue or been firing at a friendly because they couldn't ID the aircraft. How many could tell the difference between a BF-109 and a Spitfire in the heat of the battle. How many pilots do you think could tell the difference between a MiG-19 (J-6) and MiG-17 in Vietnam in spilt seconds under stress?

Even an Indian spy looking at wreckage in Pakistan - do they happen to be an expert on aircraft recognition down to that level - not certain is it.

So they might have a genuine claim but this has never been a simple 0 / 1 game like so many assume.

I suppose the Pakistan side wants Russia to count the Su-30s now does it....
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vm

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 13:45

mair wrote:
eloise wrote:Did India Shoot Down a Pakistani Jet? U.S. Count Says No.

ndia’s claim that one of its fighter pilots shot down a Pakistani F-16 fighter jet in an aerial battle between the two nuclear powers in February appears to be wrong. Two senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the situation told Foreign Policy that U.S. personnel recently counted Islamabad’s F-16s and found none missing.

The findings directly contradict the account of Indian Air Force officials, who said that Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman managed to shoot down a Pakistani F-16 before his own plane was downed by a Pakistani missile.

It is possible that in the heat of combat, Varthaman, flying a vintage MiG-21 Bison, got a lock on the Pakistani F-16, fired, and genuinely believed he scored a hit. But the count, conducted by U.S. authorities on the ground in Pakistan, sheds doubt on New Delhi’s version of events, suggesting that Indian authorities may have misled the international community about what happened that day.

The news comes just days before the start of India’s general elections, in which Prime Minister Narendra Modi is seeking another term in office. In the weeks leading up to the election, tensions between India and Pakistan escalated to levels not seen in decades after a Pakistan-based militant group killed more than 40 Indian security officers in a Feb. 14 suicide bombing in India-controlled Kashmir. Both sides have been accused of spreading disinformation and fanning nationalistic flames.

Although the news likely won’t sway Indian voters, Vipin Narang, an associate professor of political science at MIT, said the way the events have unfolded may affect India’s efforts to deter Pakistan in the future.

“As details come out, it looks worse and worse for the Indians,” Narang said. “It looks increasingly like India failed to impose significant costs on Pakistan, but lost a plane and a helicopter of its own in the process.”

The dogfight between the two nations occurred on Feb. 27, when India says a group of Pakistani jets entered its airspace in response to the first Indian air raid on Pakistani territory since a 1971 war. India scrambled its own jets and gave chase. During the aerial battle that ensued, Varthaman took a missile hit and ejected safely into Pakistani territory.

He was captured by the Pakistani army and released days later in an effort to de-escalate the crisis.

One of the senior U.S. defense officials with direct knowledge of the count said that Pakistan invited the United States to physically count its F-16 planes after the incident as part of an end-user agreement signed when the foreign military sale was finalized. Generally in such agreements, the United States requires the receiving country to allow U.S. officials to inspect the equipment regularly to ensure it is accounted for and protected.

Some of the aircraft were not immediately available for inspection due to the conflict, so it took U.S. personnel several weeks to account for all of the jets, the official said.

But now the count has been completed, and “all aircraft were present and accounted for,” the official said.


https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/04/04/di ... HQbrW2v6yM


Indian news channel NDTV said that foreign policy news outlet has a good reputation. I think that more or less settles this: no f16s were shot down on the 27th of Feb.

You do realize that NDTV is a Congress owned - anti modi channel.
As I wrote, FP is also media, just because its American changes nothing. Everyone has their agendas and just quoting anonymous sources is the oldest trick in the world to spread disinformation.
Remember the embedded American and British media during and prior to the gulf War, how they propagated the weapons of mass destruction?
Let's wait for official US word as the Pakistanis will never accept a loss. Their military is too bent on ruling the country to allow their weakness to be exposed.
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mair

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 15:46

vm wrote:You do realize that NDTV is a Congress owned - anti modi channel.
As I wrote, FP is also media, just because its American changes nothing. Everyone has their agendas and just quoting anonymous sources is the oldest trick in the world to spread disinformation.
Remember the embedded American and British media during and prior to the gulf War, how they propagated the weapons of mass destruction?
Let's wait for official US word as the Pakistanis will never accept a loss. Their military is too bent on ruling the country to allow their weakness to be exposed.


How is modi or congress relevant to this discussion? Is the congress party an anti Indian party? Weren’t the founders of India members of the congress party?

The rest of your post would have been credible if there were motive for the US based media outlet to lie. Also, every bit of information that is ever going to be made publicly available to anyone not themselves a military official has to come from the media, one way or another. Btw, nothing is stopping the Indian government from suing the authors of foreign policy magazine. Unless they do, can’t really take their claims seriously anymore.

Officials in the US, Pakistan and India have refused to comment on this publication(to the best of my knowledge) and it would be foolish to expect them to. What do they have to gain by who shot down what? It’s already been done, whatever the actual results are at this point they could care less. Contrary to Indian social media propaganda, Lockheed Martin sales would be unaffected even if the f16 shootdown were true as this could always be spun as a case of gross Pakistani pilot error due to poor training etc.

The gulf war was indeed a web of lies but it was crafted(not by all media outlets mind you) to conduct an oil war. No such motivation for lying credibly exists in this instance.

EDIT: Lara sigma a Twitter makes for interesting reading :
https://mobile.twitter.com/laraseligman ... gr%5Etweet
Last edited by mair on 05 Apr 2019, 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 16:45

http://time.com/5564980/india-never-sho ... e-kashmir/

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/11 ... a-election

American officials and Pakistanis are apparently lying about a jet not shot down according to the Indian Air Force.
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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 20:05

They will all likely refer back to Foreign Policy - or Lara Seligman who is the pentagon correspondent that was apparently given the information.

Yes the Indian Air Force have responded and have given some journalists access to some information according to this discussion:

https://www.ndtv.com/video/news/left-ri ... -16-511327

So not much further than before really.
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fullonlockon

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Unread post05 Apr 2019, 20:43

basher54321 wrote:

India made a claim very early on (same time as announcing the MiG-21 loss IIRC) and they really might genuinely think they have something - however there is an entire history of aerial conflict to look at that will show you how difficult this can be - even Gun Camera film has not always provided the answer.


Indeed. Reflects badly on their ability to interpret Radar, SIGINT and OSINT/HUMINT data if they truly believe they downed an F-16 even after all Pakistani F-16s have been accounted for. That along with their complete inability to do a proper BDA of the Balakot strikes, calls into question most of their claims.

Worrying to see an air force so unprepared for things that are often taken for granted in Western air forces.
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