Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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vm

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 03:13

knuckles wrote:
vm wrote:For some reason the Pakistani contingent here is very keen to prove its "kills" and deny Indian kills. Trying too hard I feel.
And Pakistan has the best opportunity to prove that the terrorist camps were not hit by taking the journalists to the camps(as promised by the ispr official) and also prove that the 2nd Indian pilot was in their custody by just producing him in front of the world media.
Whether f16 or some other Pakistani plane was shot down is not going to be easy to prove, since historically Pakistan maintains its fictions for long durations, eg no Pakistani soldiers involved in kargil or Osama was not killed in Pakistan or taliban is not supported by pakistan. Lying comes naturally to them.
Just prove the 2 points above and shut Indian mouths.

Similarly how a PAF Viper was shot down by displaying an AMRAAM wreckage but without the actual wreckage of the aircraft.

It is a web of uncertainties and facts being woven around.

Typical deceitful answer.
AMRAAM wreakage was shown to prove f16 use, since Pakistan denied using f16, not shooting down of f16. Though I feel even exhibition of this was unnecessary as Pakistan would use all its resources in a conflict. Everyone including usa are fully aware of this as Pakistan has used mostly American planes, tanks, etc since the 50s against India.
Difference is that since in Pakistan the army is a political institution, it made repeated uncorroborated bombastic statements like any politician, while the IAF chief categorically refused to give answers which were not in his professional domain. Eg number of terrorist casualties in the IAF attack.
The only point of interests in this conflict are to know -
why the mig21 pilot crossed the LOC alone in broad daylight? Was it a rush of blood or SOP ?
2ndly how was the mig21 actually downed, f16 or SAM ?
3rdly why did the upgraded electronics in the mig21 not detect a missile lock ?
4th most interestingly how will India respond after the next major terrorist attack from across the border.?
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pagan

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 07:24

basher54321 wrote:Sorry 14:05 was the point being referred to - shame he never went around to the right because the nozzle layout is pretty distinctive.

1405.JPG


The missile has a distinct white paint scheme which is very different from the areas you are pointing out.

Those areas look like a part of the main structure of the aircraft and not a weapon carried on the wings.

There are going to be many such flat surfaces in the wreckage.
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fullonlockon

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 07:33

vm wrote:Typical deceitful answer.
AMRAAM wreakage was shown to prove f16 use, since Pakistan denied using f16, not shooting down of f16. Though I feel even exhibition of this was unnecessary as Pakistan would use all its resources in a conflict. Everyone including usa are fully aware of this as Pakistan has used mostly American planes, tanks, etc since the 50s against India.
Difference is that since in Pakistan the army is a political institution, it made repeated uncorroborated bombastic statements like any politician, while the IAF chief categorically refused to give answers which were not in his professional domain. Eg number of terrorist casualties in the IAF attack.
The only point of interests in this conflict are to know -
why the mig21 pilot crossed the LOC alone in broad daylight? Was it a rush of blood or SOP ?
2ndly how was the mig21 actually downed, f16 or SAM ?
3rdly why did the upgraded electronics in the mig21 not detect a missile lock ?
4th most interestingly how will India respond after the next major terrorist attack from across the border.?


The IAF has literally been caught lying about the results of the Balakot strike. That much has been conclusively proven beyond any reasonable doubt by independent experts and neutral journalists. The changing stories that the Indian military establishment peddles through its sources in the media have been laughable to say the least.
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fullonlockon

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 07:37

pagan wrote:
basher54321 wrote:Sorry 14:05 was the point being referred to - shame he never went around to the right because the nozzle layout is pretty distinctive.

1405.JPG


The missile has a distinct white paint scheme which is very different from the areas you are pointing out.

Those areas look like a part of the main structure of the aircraft and not a weapon carried on the wings.

There are going to be many such flat surfaces in the wreckage.


The wing and missiles on it were burnt and won't be white anymore. The wing was on fire as it fell down. To me at least, the fin is a dead giveaway from an R-73 fin.
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basher54321

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 09:30

pagan wrote:
The missile has a distinct white paint scheme which is very different from the areas you are pointing out.

Those areas look like a part of the main structure of the aircraft and not a weapon carried on the wings.

There are going to be many such flat surfaces in the wreckage.





Okay so when an aircraft crashes the parts will be deformed and broken depending on things such as force of impact and material they are made of. Then any fire will deform, melt and burn the material to an extent depending on the material type.
This wreckage has been subject to massive fire damage so expect deformity, burnt paint etc these are things you need to consider.

Despite having "Pak Defence" stamped on it the poster might not be far off because there are four - six identifiable features one side and one the other that match multiple close up shots of the rear of an R-73 and that is all there is to it.

I am not saying it is as a certainly but there is a lot there for it to just be coincidental deformity. (You might want to question where the white and intact R-73 came from in the other photo ;) )

If Patriot is still about who apparently worked MiG-21s for 10 years then he could probably confirm that is a missile pylon - that looks like an exposed gas/coolant bottle (for the IR missiles) but would need him to confirm.
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weasel1962

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 09:41

Well, one element of the 1 IAF mig-21 vs the entire PAF narrative is validated.

Article: No F16 Used To Shoot Down Indian Aircraft: Pakistan Army
https://www.outlookindia.com/website/st ... rmy/327539

The aircraft which engaged those targets and fought them were JF-17......at that point of time our entire Air Force was airborne -Major General Asif Ghafoor, PAF
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vm

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 10:42

fullonlockon wrote:
vm wrote:Typical deceitful answer.
AMRAAM wreakage was shown to prove f16 use, since Pakistan denied using f16, not shooting down of f16. Though I feel even exhibition of this was unnecessary as Pakistan would use all its resources in a conflict. Everyone including usa are fully aware of this as Pakistan has used mostly American planes, tanks, etc since the 50s against India.
Difference is that since in Pakistan the army is a political institution, it made repeated uncorroborated bombastic statements like any politician, while the IAF chief categorically refused to give answers which were not in his professional domain. Eg number of terrorist casualties in the IAF attack.
The only point of interests in this conflict are to know -
why the mig21 pilot crossed the LOC alone in broad daylight? Was it a rush of blood or SOP ?
2ndly how was the mig21 actually downed, f16 or SAM ?
3rdly why did the upgraded electronics in the mig21 not detect a missile lock ?
4th most interestingly how will India respond after the next major terrorist attack from across the border.?


The IAF has literally been caught lying about the results of the Balakot strike. That much has been conclusively proven beyond any reasonable doubt by independent experts and neutral journalists. The changing stories that the Indian military establishment peddles through its sources in the media have been laughable to say the least.

Seriously?
Let's not depend on media sources but only on official statements from both sides.
The IAF chief was asked about casualties in the strike on the Pakistani terrorists camp and he categorically refused to give a estimate of the terrorists killed. He said our job was to hit assigned targets and estimating dead terrorists is not my job.
Now Pakistanis could have proved him a liar by giving the media access to these camps(as promised by the pakistani army spokesperson in his press conference ) but seems the "weather conditions" are still not suitable. Pakistani army is till date physically denying access to the educational camps.
In comparison, as per Pakistani ispr spokesperson, their were 2 Indian pilots captured; after 8 hours PM Khan niazi also repeated 2 pilots captured, but its been 3 weeks, and the 2nd pilot is still invisible.?
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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 11:46

vm wrote:
fullonlockon wrote:
vm wrote:Typical deceitful answer.
AMRAAM wreakage was shown to prove f16 use, since Pakistan denied using f16, not shooting down of f16. Though I feel even exhibition of this was unnecessary as Pakistan would use all its resources in a conflict. Everyone including usa are fully aware of this as Pakistan has used mostly American planes, tanks, etc since the 50s against India.
Difference is that since in Pakistan the army is a political institution, it made repeated uncorroborated bombastic statements like any politician, while the IAF chief categorically refused to give answers which were not in his professional domain. Eg number of terrorist casualties in the IAF attack.
The only point of interests in this conflict are to know -
why the mig21 pilot crossed the LOC alone in broad daylight? Was it a rush of blood or SOP ?
2ndly how was the mig21 actually downed, f16 or SAM ?
3rdly why did the upgraded electronics in the mig21 not detect a missile lock ?
4th most interestingly how will India respond after the next major terrorist attack from across the border.?


The IAF has literally been caught lying about the results of the Balakot strike. That much has been conclusively proven beyond any reasonable doubt by independent experts and neutral journalists. The changing stories that the Indian military establishment peddles through its sources in the media have been laughable to say the least.

Seriously?
Let's not depend on media sources but only on official statements from both sides.
The IAF chief was asked about casualties in the strike on the Pakistani terrorists camp and he categorically refused to give a estimate of the terrorists killed. He said our job was to hit assigned targets and estimating dead terrorists is not my job.
Now Pakistanis could have proved him a liar by giving the media access to these camps(as promised by the pakistani army spokesperson in his press conference ) but seems the "weather conditions" are still not suitable. Pakistani army is till date physically denying access to the educational camps.
In comparison, as per Pakistani ispr spokesperson, their were 2 Indian pilots captured; after 8 hours PM Khan niazi also repeated 2 pilots captured, but its been 3 weeks, and the 2nd pilot is still invisible.?


The IAF's job is not to do BDA? I have never heard any other air force claim that their job is not to do BDA. That sounds like someone who knows their political leadership is lying and trying to avoid lying on their behalf. If the IAF knew they hit their targets, they could easily provide imagery to prove that. It would be VERY easy for them to do so.

It is also very concerning that the IAF chief is not privy to the intelligence about the targets his aircraft hit. If he is blindly hitting targets that are forced on him, that is very dangerous territory for a professional air force. What if he had hit the targets and it was a madrassa/school full of children. Even if a JeM madrassa. Would he still claim that he was just following orders?

All journalists have been to the site and noticed the madrassah still standing. All sat image analysts have already said that no damage was done to the madrassah. But all of that is obviously not good enough for you.
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vm

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Unread post25 Mar 2019, 14:37

[/quote]The IAF's job is not to do BDA? I have never heard any other air force claim that their job is not to do BDA. That sounds like someone who knows their political leadership is lying and trying to avoid lying on their behalf. If the IAF knew they hit their targets, they could easily provide imagery to prove that. It would be VERY easy for them to do so.

It is also very concerning that the IAF chief is not privy to the intelligence about the targets his aircraft hit. If he is blindly hitting targets that are forced on him, that is very dangerous territory for a professional air force. What if he had hit the targets and it was a madrassa/school full of children. Even if a JeM madrassa. Would he still claim that he was just following orders?

All journalists have been to the site and noticed the madrassah still standing. All sat image analysts have already said that no damage was done to the madrassah. But all of that is obviously not good enough for you.[/quote]
Don't want to be rude but are you seriously so dense or being just manipulative ?
The iaf chief was asked about casualties and he said i hit the assigned targets and counting the casualties is not under me.
No journalist has been allowed inside the compound by armed military men, their is only a single photo from outside the compound.
If you can show me 1 recent photo of the jem compound at ground level from inside the compound, I would stand corrected.No satellite photos pl.
Also their is confusion in your mind about the military civilian relationship in democratic countries. In India, USA, UK, etc the armed forces act on the instructions of the civilian government, whether they like it or not. I know its a alien concept for you - but in India the army spokesperson cannot give a official statement saying I do not agree with the sitting elected PM - like it happened in Pakistan a year back.
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Unread post27 Mar 2019, 05:26

Some new information in the media , can't vouch for it. But interesting reading.
https://m.hindustantimes.com/columns/op ... tkZRN.html
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 06:26

Regarding damage to the Balakot building.

The Reuters reporters have repeatedly been denied entry into the complex.

They were able to take photos of one of the buildings from the ridge. It clearly showed burn marks near a building, consistent with a fireball of what a fuel type explosive would make.

This article has more images including those on the roof of the buildings.

https://theprint.in/defence/first-satel ... on/201639/

https://in.reuters.com/article/india-ka ... ce=Twitter
Attachments
ShivPicture.jpg
Burn marks on the outside of the building
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knuckles

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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 06:55

pagan wrote:Regarding damage to the Balakot building.

The Reuters reporters have repeatedly been denied entry into the complex.

They were able to take photos of one of the buildings from the ridge. It clearly showed burn marks near a building, consistent with a fireball of what a fuel type explosive would make.

This article has more images including those on the roof of the buildings.

https://theprint.in/defence/first-satel ... on/201639/

https://in.reuters.com/article/india-ka ... ce=Twitter

Interesting. I thought 1000 kg ordnance would do quite a lot of damage, but need to see more pictures of the area.
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 10:54

Even more sat image analysis using higher resolution imagery.

https://www.aspistrategist.org.au/india ... cise-miss/
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Unread post28 Mar 2019, 21:27

pagan wrote:Regarding damage to the Balakot building.

The Reuters reporters have repeatedly been denied entry into the complex.

They were able to take photos of one of the buildings from the ridge. It clearly showed burn marks near a building, consistent with a fireball of what a fuel type explosive would make.

This article has more images including those on the roof of the buildings.

https://theprint.in/defence/first-satel ... on/201639/

https://in.reuters.com/article/india-ka ... ce=Twitter


Ridiculous. If you didn’t have satellite images basically corroborating that there was virtually no damage, you may have had a point. ‘High resolution satellite images reviewed by Reuters on Wednesday shows the madrassah appears to be standing, virtually unchanged from an April 2018 satellite photo of the facility’

^^ taken from your own link. At this point any further discussion is basically repetitive and redundant there’s no evidence of any significant damage at Balakot even if the Pakistanis never allow anyone within a mile of the site again.
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pagan

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Unread post29 Mar 2019, 04:40

1.5992060.2358569924.jpg
Inside of Iranian Facility after Israeili bomb


mair wrote:
^^ taken from your own link. At this point any further discussion is basically repetitive and redundant there’s no evidence of any significant damage at Balakot even if the Pakistanis never allow anyone within a mile of the site again.


A person posting on a forum dedicated to military warplane should have some basic understanding of weapon systems. :bang:

I had posted this last night also; but somehow my posts do not show up or get deleted. Image is from this news-item. It shows how a HE fuel based weapon leaves the superstructure intact. The building in KPK was concrete based much stronger than this hangar like structure.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5991846
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