Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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Shimud

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Unread post18 Mar 2019, 20:36

mixelflick wrote:Are PAK or Indian missiles of this sort road mobile?

I'm not aware that either country has F-15E like strike aircraft designed to hunt these types of missiles. Just basic air to ground strike fighters. Hopefully, India's Rafale's will have some capability in this regard. Not sure if PAK has anything in the hopper like it.

Would get ugly fast. Glad it didn't happen..


India's longest range ICBM Agni V can be carried on a road mobile vehicle. I guess they call it transport and tilting vehicle.
Pakistan's longest range ICBM is launched using a TEL, implies road mobile.

A conflict between two can get ugly in a short time.
Today, I was reading an article by Reuters, where in between the lines, it was evident that even during these testing times, the intelligence agencies of two were in constant contact with each other. I think it helped in extinguishing the fire.

I still firmly believe that this whole episode was staged by the BJP government in India, to gain votes, before general elections. Check their campaign posters and banners. They are clearly exploiting the political and religious sentiments.
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invictus

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Unread post21 Mar 2019, 19:47

All four missiles of the Indian Bison accounted for,not sure how the Indian pilot shot a viper down.
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vm

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Unread post22 Mar 2019, 17:45

invictus wrote:All four missiles of the Indian Bison accounted for,not sure how the Indian pilot shot a viper down.

photos of air to air missile debris Pakistan claimed to have used to shoot down a Indian drone in 2002...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2033431.stm

The man holding the missile parts is a Pakistani.
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pagan

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 05:43

invictus wrote:All four missiles of the Indian Bison accounted for,not sure how the Indian pilot shot a viper down.


Whoever shared that photo has confirmed that the missiles on the right are not in the same state as the missiles on the left. The missiles on the right have their explosive charge triggered.

The proximity fuse of the R-73 went off. You can see that the seeker part, and the burnt tail but not the explosive.

That means that the R-73 was not only fired, but got close enough to the target, and trigger the proximity fuse.

The R-77 also lacking the body indicates that it is possible that the Mig21 also fired the R-77 also, and while his target was dodging it closed in to get the R-73 shot off.

@Knucles: The claims about the PAF Sherdil pilot being the lost one are based on those old videos where he has a beard; that was to corroborate that video where a Pakistani civilian claims to have beaten a Sikh (bearded) pilot.
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knuckles

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 07:28

pagan wrote:
invictus wrote:All four missiles of the Indian Bison accounted for,not sure how the Indian pilot shot a viper down.


Whoever shared that photo has confirmed that the missiles on the right are not in the same state as the missiles on the left. The missiles on the right have their explosive charge triggered.

The proximity fuse of the R-73 went off. You can see that the seeker part, and the burnt tail but not the explosive.

That means that the R-73 was not only fired, but got close enough to the target, and trigger the proximity fuse.

The R-77 also lacking the body indicates that it is possible that the Mig21 also fired the R-77 also, and while his target was dodging it closed in to get the R-73 shot off.

@Knucles: The claims about the PAF Sherdil pilot being the lost one are based on those old videos where he has a beard; that was to corroborate that video where a Pakistani civilian claims to have beaten a Sikh (bearded) pilot.

The former CO of Sherdils still has a beard and looks very much the same.
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fullonlockon

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 07:47

Here's the other R-73 till on the Mig-21 wing. Notice the blue circles that show the fin edge. If you still think any missile left the Mig-21 before it was shot down, than God help you.

YgKjqaG.jpg
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pagan

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 19:39

knuckles wrote:
pagan wrote:@Knucles: The claims about the PAF Sherdil pilot being the lost one are based on those old videos where he has a beard; that was to corroborate that video where a Pakistani civilian claims to have beaten a Sikh (bearded) pilot.

The former CO of Sherdils still has a beard and looks very much the same.


Yes, that is what I meant. All that speculation is based on people trying to link those two videos.

fullonlockon wrote:Here's the other R-73 till on the Mig-21 wing. Notice the blue circles that show the fin edge. If you still think any missile left the Mig-21 before it was shot down, than God help you.

YgKjqaG.jpg


That graphic is drawing inference which do not seem to make sense.

  • The cylinder part is intact unlike the bits and pieces of the spent R73
  • The way the wreckage is compressed it is much more likely to be a part of the primary aircraft structure than an ordinance hung on the wing
  • That part they are pointing to is the same color as the rest of the plane and not white like the missile.
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basher54321

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 20:24

fullonlockon wrote:Here's the other R-73 till on the Mig-21 wing. Notice the blue circles that show the fin edge. If you still think any missile left the Mig-21 before it was shot down, than God help you.




So probably taken from this which is the highest quality video I have seen of the site so far. If so they have horizontally flipped one of the images of the R-73 rear end but it otherwise looks unedited from the video. It does look like an R-73 back end stuck on a pylon I must admit - there is a lump with 2 rivets not circled that also matches up - but that is all I will say on that.

14:20 shows something that looks like an R-77 rear end with those weird fins crushed but less certain.

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pagan

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Unread post23 Mar 2019, 22:38

MissileInWreckage.png
The intact missile in white is visible in a different part.


I took another screenshot from the video. The intact missiles in white are clearly visible in the bottom right which I have highlighted.

That graphic is not drawing correct inference.

Independently, we have video evidence of two separate explosions.

One the eye-witness with the white puffs and booms followed by the parachute and flaming plane.
And the second one which starts off with the white-puffs and then zooms into another explosion in the sky with the contrails of the weapon which leads up to the 2nd explosion faintly visible.

We know that one of them was the IAF Mig21; we don't know what the 2nd one was.

Given the Mig21 was engaged in WVR combat it is highly unlikely that a SAM or BVR missile was fired at it while the battle was on; though given that the PAF F-16s fired their AAMRAMs across the LoC at extreme ranges you can not discount anything.

Much more likely that the 2nd explosion was the Mig21 hit by a Pakistani weapon after PAF planes were no longer present in the area.

basher54321 wrote:
fullonlockon wrote:Here's the other R-73 till on the Mig-21 wing. Notice the blue circles that show the fin edge. If you still think any missile left the Mig-21 before it was shot down, than God help you.




So probably taken from this which is the highest quality video I have seen of the site so far. If so they have horizontally flipped one of the images of the R-73 rear end but it otherwise looks unedited from the video. It does look like an R-73 back end stuck on a pylon I must admit - there is a lump with 2 rivets not circled that also matches up - but that is all I will say on that.

14:20 shows something that looks like an R-77 rear end with those weird fins crushed but less certain.

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madrat

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Unread post24 Mar 2019, 01:59

The only two sounds I heard on the video were the sonic boom from a missile. The HE explosion doesn't necessarily pick up well from a cellphone. The smoke looked like a SAM trail, not an AAM. The Bison was a sitting duck for quite a few SAM types. Unlikely, however, would it have been a MANPADS. Wrong kind of smoketrail. But perfect for FM80.
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fullonlockon

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Unread post24 Mar 2019, 03:46

pagan wrote:*snip*


From the video. This is a fin of an R-73. It's pretty clear to me. Eyewitness accounts, especially of an air engagement by villagers, are not evidence of anything, This video is.

You're right that the other R-73 was found fairly intact. Don't see how this Mig-21 got any kill without firing its missiles.

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pagan

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Unread post24 Mar 2019, 10:03

fullonlockon wrote:
pagan wrote:*snip*


From the video. This is a fin of an R-73. It's pretty clear to me. Eyewitness accounts, especially of an air engagement by villagers, are not evidence of anything, This video is.

You're right that the other R-73 was found fairly intact. Don't see how this Mig-21 got any kill without firing its missiles.

[img]<span%20class="skimlinks-unlinked">https://i.imgur.com/VLgnzmJ.jpg</span>[/img]


The flat metal segment is highly unlikely to be a missile carried as an external load. The color is different and from the nature of the debris it seems like a part of the aircraft. That does not look like the wing part of the airframe at all.

madrat wrote:The only two sounds I heard on the video were the sonic boom from a missile. The HE explosion doesn't necessarily pick up well from a cellphone. The smoke looked like a SAM trail, not an AAM. The Bison was a sitting duck for quite a few SAM types. Unlikely, however, would it have been a MANPADS. Wrong kind of smoketrail. But perfect for FM80.


Could you please clarify which smoke are you referring to?

The white puffs in the video where the crowd is talking about the ejection? Or the other video which shows both the white puffs and then a second explosion?

Initial word on Indian twitter was that the Mig21 got hit by ground fire on the way back.

And the height of on the West side of the Kashmir valley (15000ft + peaks) also tell us why those Mig21s from Srinagar caught the PAF strike package by surprise; they probably never showed up on long range radar till the reached 16000 ft above the mountains. It probably meant that the PAF planes which were in the package which crossed the LOC did not get much time to disengage.

Incidentally it seems that the source of the map with the different aircraft type and their path from the airbases was due to @chopsyturvy, Anil Chopra Retd IAF Air Marshal with the possible distinction of being the oldest person (59 years) to eject from a fighter jet, when a two seater Mirage 2000 he was on went down.
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vm

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Unread post24 Mar 2019, 14:23

For some reason the Pakistani contingent here is very keen to prove its "kills" and deny Indian kills. Trying too hard I feel.
And Pakistan has the best opportunity to prove that the terrorist camps were not hit by taking the journalists to the camps(as promised by the ispr official) and also prove that the 2nd Indian pilot was in their custody by just producing him in front of the world media.
Whether f16 or some other Pakistani plane was shot down is not going to be easy to prove, since historically Pakistan maintains its fictions for long durations, eg no Pakistani soldiers involved in kargil or Osama was not killed in Pakistan or taliban is not supported by pakistan. Lying comes naturally to them.
Just prove the 2 points above and shut Indian mouths.
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knuckles

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Unread post24 Mar 2019, 18:23

vm wrote:For some reason the Pakistani contingent here is very keen to prove its "kills" and deny Indian kills. Trying too hard I feel.
And Pakistan has the best opportunity to prove that the terrorist camps were not hit by taking the journalists to the camps(as promised by the ispr official) and also prove that the 2nd Indian pilot was in their custody by just producing him in front of the world media.
Whether f16 or some other Pakistani plane was shot down is not going to be easy to prove, since historically Pakistan maintains its fictions for long durations, eg no Pakistani soldiers involved in kargil or Osama was not killed in Pakistan or taliban is not supported by pakistan. Lying comes naturally to them.
Just prove the 2 points above and shut Indian mouths.

Similarly how a PAF Viper was shot down by displaying an AMRAAM wreckage but without the actual wreckage of the aircraft.

It is a web of uncertainties and facts being woven around.
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basher54321

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Unread post24 Mar 2019, 20:20

Sorry 14:05 was the point being referred to - shame he never went around to the right because the nozzle layout is pretty distinctive.

1405.JPG
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