Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 20:38
by loke
In the early hours of Tuesday, 12 Mirage-2000 combat jets of the Indian Air Force (IAF) armed with Israeli Precision Guided Munitions (PGM) took off from their Gwalior airbase on a crucial mission, cloaked in secrecy. The multirole fighter aircraft flew over Himachal Pradesh and Kashmir before crossing into Pakistani airspace and striking the largest training camp of the Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) in Balakot inside Pakistan.

“The terror launch pads along the LoC were moved deep inside after the Pulwama attack,” a senior defence official said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “The camp in Balakot, which was targeted, is JeM’s major training camp. It’s in proper Pakistan itself, close to Abbottabad infamous because of Osama bin Laden.”

Balakot is about 60 km aerial distance from the LoC, in the Mansehra district of Pakistan’s Khyber Pakhtunkhwa province, and is about two hours’ drive from Abbottabad.


“Twelve Mirage-2000 jets from Gwalior were involved in the strike and they carried SPICE 2000 and Crystal Maze Mk2, also called AGM 142 Popeye PGMs,” an IAF source confirmed.


https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 379607.ece

According to open sources SPICE 2000 has a range of approx 60 km and Popeye a range of 80 km(?). If so, it would seem to me that perhaps the Mirage 2000 did not fly very deep into Pakistan (if at all).

Comments?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 20:45
by sprstdlyscottsmn
The Pakistani government claims the Indian Air Force hit nothing but open desert.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 21:27
by hythelday
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The Pakistani government claims the Indian Air Force hit nothing but open desert.


I am willing to believe India-Pakistan claims as much as I believe Iran-Iraq war claims by both sides. Remember - Su-30MKIs already detected J-20s, according to people who have nothing to gain from such claims. Accordingly, Pakistan, who definitly never had anything to do with training and harboring armed groups who may or may not have been terrorists and definitely never launched covert operations into Indian territory will of course provide nothing but the crystal clear and truthful statements about the neighbors, who they love and respect so much.

The strikes did happen, though. Most likely.

Indians also claim to have baptized Derby air defense system by shooting down "Pakistani spy drone", and have this wreckage to prove that:
Image

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 22:42
by loke
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The Pakistani government claims the Indian Air Force hit nothing but open desert.

Of course nobody were hit -- there are no terrorists hiding in Pakistan! Since there are no terrorists hiding in Pakistan it is simply not possible to drop bombs at them. Thus, following this logic, nobody were hit in this attack.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 26 Feb 2019, 23:02
by sprstdlyscottsmn
hahahaha, you guys are acting like I believe them (Pak gov). OP asked for comments, I simply put out the statement by the Pakistani gov. It was a comment, not an opinion. Heck, my post is even fact. Pak Gov does claim nothing was hit.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 00:56
by noth
So best case scenario: hundreds of dead terrorists. Worst case scenario: no one dead and the Pakistan armed forces got a good look at an Indian air mission. Notice none of those Mirage 2000s got shot down. That's got to sting a bit.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 05:46
by icemaverick
It’s interesting that they chose the Mirage-2000 for the mission. Is it the best strike plane in their arsenal? I thought the Su-30MKI had some pretty potent strike capabilities. My theory is that the Russian strike munitions aren’t as good as the Israeli ones. I’m guessing the avionics/targeting pods etc. aren’t as advanced in the Su-30MKIs.

That being said, the MKIs are probably the superior air to air platform and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were flying top cover on the mission.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 06:59
by noth
Indian MiG-21 fighter possibly shot down, confirmed crashed in Jammu & Kashmir : https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 179349.cms

It's beginning to heat up, Pakistan Air Force clearly want revenge.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 07:08
by noth
Image

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 07:59
by pmi
Reading that graphic I can't help but marvel at the phrase "non-military pre-emptive strike".

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 09:25
by noth
Mi-17 seems to the aircraft that crashed, not a MiG-21. Image in article looks a lot more likely.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... dM6lM.html

There's a claim of a shot down Pakistani F-16 now, but the fog of war today is very thick. Also claims that an Indian fighter was shot down inside Pakistan and the pilots were captured : https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/43760 ... y-pakistan (includes video of captured pilot, probably NSFW).

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 11:20
by Corsair1963
Pakistan is now claiming they "didn't" loose an F-16??? Said it had none in the area??? :?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 11:21
by Corsair1963
India-Pakistan tension escalates as 'jets shot down' :shock:



https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-47383889

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 11:35
by weasel1962
Pakistan has shown the Indian mig-21 pilot on TV, looks like at least 1 downed fighter is confirmed, in addition to the mi-17 crash.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 12:21
by citanon
Corsair1963 wrote:India-Pakistan tension escalates as 'jets shot down' :shock:

https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-asia-47383889


Yea, looks pretty real:

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=CXuEa_1551256199

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 13:10
by hythelday
Here's a MiG-21 wreck:

https://www.afp.com/en/news/3954/pakist ... oc-1dy4mo4
Image

Liveleak video with the wreckage is NSFW; but that wreck does not match this one. The Indian pilot fellow who is lying on the ground has Indian flag patch and is wearing parachute rig and does not have the impressive facial hair of the pilot from the other video. So there's definitely two wreckages and unless that Fishbed was a two-seater Pakistanis brought down a second fighter also.

Image

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 13:13
by zero-one
Saw a Facebook post from a page called
"Pakistani Air Force" (not sure it its the official page) saying the shooter was a JF-17.

So far its still a toss up between the F-16 or JF-17.
https://theaviationist.com/2019/02/27/i ... force-jet/


IAF pilot was named as IndianAirForce's Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman

Service No: 27981
Branch F(P)
Date Commissioned 19 Jun 2004


There is also a video of Varthaman 8 years ago in the IAF
So it looks like the Pakistanis won this time

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 14:00
by mixelflick
Quite telling the Indians chose a western jet, sensors and weapons to perform the strike. Plus 2 Russian built birds (Mig-21 and helo) brought down.

The SU-30MKI/F-16 matchup sounds interesting. I have to believe it's coming...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 16:06
by hythelday
icemaverick wrote:It’s interesting that they chose the Mirage-2000 for the mission. Is it the best strike plane in their arsenal? I thought the Su-30MKI had some pretty potent strike capabilities. My theory is that the Russian strike munitions aren’t as good as the Israeli ones. I’m guessing the avionics/targeting pods etc. aren’t as advanced in the Su-30MKIs.

That being said, the MKIs are probably the superior air to air platform and I wouldn’t be surprised if they were flying top cover on the mission.


Su-30MKI have Thales' Damocles TGP, and supposedly Paveways intergated (India bought Paveways in 1994, not sure how many are left, can't find pics of Flankers with Paveways) plus KAB-### LGBs. I think it has more to do with the fact Flanker is considered better DCA/sweep platform. Don't know why Fishbeds were used though, Indians thought they were up to the job and it looks like some of their aircrew had to pay with their life for that. :shock:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 16:45
by mixelflick
Reports now indicate Pakistani F-16 downed. No confirmation yet how. Speculation is an Indian Mig-21 or SU-30MKI. I'd think it was the latter, but the fog of war is strong...

EDIT: Now Pakistan says no F-16 was brought down..

https://www.samaa.tv/news/2019/02/no-a- ... -by-india/

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 18:08
by basher54321

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 18:24
by tjh8402
Watching the BBC now, they played a video of a statement from a spokesman for the Indian Foreign Ministry who states it was a MiG-21 that shot down the PAF Jet. He doesn’t identify what type was shot down, only calling it a “Pakistan Air Force Fighter Aircraft”.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 18:32
by hythelday
tjh8402 wrote:Watching the BBC now, they played a video of a statement from a spokesman for the Indian Foreign Ministry who states it was a MiG-21 that shot down the PAF Jet. He doesn’t identify what type was shot down, only calling it a “Pakistan Air Force Fighter Aircraft”.


India denied missing a fighter at first too. They now admit one MiG-21, even though liveleak vids and AFP picture show difderent wrecks. Pakistan likely won't admit it unless some evidence surfaces. IF it crashed in Pakistan Indians likely don't have any evidence, so we'd have to rely on general public and abundance of phone cameras and internet access.

Both sides are probably on full alert now, so unless they decide to duke it out, I don't think we'll get accidental skirmish/ambush type of engagement.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 19:36
by zero-one
Would it be crazy for me to say that IAF is far more powerful than the PAF. Forget the fact that India has far more money than Pakistan.

But in air superiority fighters the F-16 is really only superior in a high speed dogfight. In BVR the AMRAAMs should also give the Viper advantages but the Su-30s of the IAF has a bigger more advanced radar than Pakistani Vipers, more support assets like AEWACS and I think there are more of them available too...

So India could really enforce a no fly zone on their border with Pakistan and they would have the upper hand. Am I missing things here?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 20:10
by Patriot
Bigger radar dish - yes.
More advanced radar in general - likely no.

Id say the AMRAAM is a single most important and key factor in favor of Paks to hold an air superiority over Indians. Whenever an AMRAAM comes off the rail it's asured someome wont go back home that day

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 20:23
by mixelflick
zero-one wrote:Would it be crazy for me to say that IAF is far more powerful than the PAF. Forget the fact that India has far more money than Pakistan.

But in air superiority fighters the F-16 is really only superior in a high speed dogfight. In BVR the AMRAAMs should also give the Viper advantages but the Su-30s of the IAF has a bigger more advanced radar than Pakistani Vipers, more support assets like AEWACS and I think there are more of them available too...

So India could really enforce a no fly zone on their border with Pakistan and they would have the upper hand. Am I missing things here?


On paper the Indian air force is quite superior. They also hold several real advantages, like numbers.

The SU-30 does have the bigger radar. But it's an open question if it's better than the block 50 Vipers Pakistan is flying. BVR missiles I'd have to give it to Pakistani AMRAAM C-5's (don't think we sold them C-7's). The F-16 will present a much smaller RCS vs the Flanker, and WVR it will be harder to see.

If it comes to a knife fight, the F-16/Flanker matchup will be quite interesting. The F-16 is the ultimate rate machine, the Flanker's low speed nose pointing authority is legendary. In that event, I bet it'll come down to missiles. I don't think Pakistan has the 9x. So if the Flanker has the R-73/AA-11, I'd have to give it to the Flanker.

One thing's for sure: Anyone with even a passing interest in military aviation will be watching..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 20:38
by Patriot
mixelflick wrote:But it's an open question if it's better than the block 50 Vipers Pakistan is flying

They have a few squadrons of standard Block 15s with no MLU upgrades and 18 Block 52+

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 20:49
by wil59
mixelflick wrote:
zero-one wrote:Would it be crazy for me to say that IAF is far more powerful than the PAF. Forget the fact that India has far more money than Pakistan.

But in air superiority fighters the F-16 is really only superior in a high speed dogfight. In BVR the AMRAAMs should also give the Viper advantages but the Su-30s of the IAF has a bigger more advanced radar than Pakistani Vipers, more support assets like AEWACS and I think there are more of them available too...

So India could really enforce a no fly zone on their border with Pakistan and they would have the upper hand. Am I missing things here?


On paper the Indian air force is quite superior. They also hold several real advantages, like numbers.

The SU-30 does have the bigger radar. But it's an open question if it's better than the block 50 Vipers Pakistan is flying. BVR missiles I'd have to give it to Pakistani AMRAAM C-5's (don't think we sold them C-7's). The F-16 will present a much smaller RCS vs the Flanker, and WVR it will be harder to see.

If it comes to a knife fight, the F-16/Flanker matchup will be quite interesting. The F-16 is the ultimate rate machine, the Flanker's low speed nose pointing authority is legendary. In that event, I bet it'll come down to missiles. I don't think Pakistan has the 9x. So if the Flanker has the R-73/AA-11, I'd have to give it to the Flanker.

One thing's for sure: Anyone with even a passing interest in military aviation will be watching..
.
Not really. According to the Indian press, for the first time, a Mirage 2000 modernized (Mirage 2000I / TI) of the Indian Air Force has validated its ability to implement the air-to-air mica missile on the occasion of a firing of trial. The shot took place against a flying target.

The ability to take the MBDA Mica missile is one of the integrated capabilities of the current Indian Mirage 2000 retrofit. A contract was signed in 2011 with Dassault Aviation, in collaboration with Thales to bring the Indian Mirage 2000Hs, ordered in the 1980s, to a standard similar to that of the Mirage 2000-5.

The renovation includes the integration of the RDY-3 radar, the Totem navigation system, the ICMS Mk-4 electronic warfare suite and a new IFF system. The aircraft are also equipped with the MBDA air-to-air missile carrying capacity.

The first two Indian Mirage 2000I / TI were modernized in Istres by Dassault Aviation and delivered in 2015. A total of fifty hunters must be brought to the new standard. The other devices are modified directly in India, in partnership with the local industry. Mica EM/50mn. Mica Ir/35 mn

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 21:03
by Boman
You have to remember that even if India have SU-30's doesn't mean that they use the biggest asset in every occation.
In a scenario like this one, you use the base and units closest to where you are to attack. Hence the use of MiG-21's.
Similar on PAF side, you use the resources closest, weather Mirage, JF-17 or F-16.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 22:03
by armedupdate
F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 22:10
by hythelday
armedupdate wrote:F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.


Except that F-15 never even came close to Mach 2 in combat operations, but OK.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 23:07
by basher54321
This video is released by a #Pakistan Air Force personnel shows 14sq Leader, Hasan Siddiqui upon his return to #Minhas AB after shooting down CU2328, a MiG-21 Bison of #India Air Force's 51sq today. His airplane is 15-201, a JF-17 Block-II of 16th Multi Role Squadron.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1100751163287322624

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 23:23
by weasel1962
USAF would be interested observers, if anything just to see if Chinese missiles work.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 27 Feb 2019, 23:53
by basher54321
Patriot wrote:They have a few squadrons of standard Block 15s with no MLU upgrades and 18 Block 52+



viewtopic.php?f=2&t=45985&p=401414&hilit=Pakistan#p401414

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 01:31
by weasel1962
Basing wise, the new F-16s are based somewhere in the middle of Pakistan so unless these were transferred, they are not in the fight. 9 Sqn (F-16 MLU) is probably the closest F-16 sqns to the LOC. However, the closest fighter sqns are JF+17s incl the 14 sqn based at Minhas.

On India's side, the likely losses are from the 26 Mig-21bison sqn based at Pathankot. Sukhois based at Bareilly (8 sqn) was probably involved. Likely Mig-29s at Adampur as well (although we don't hear anything about Mig-29s). The mIrages are at Gwalior, also in the northern side of India.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 01:49
by basher54321
Pakistan have posted photos of some of the items the captured pilot had with him including a survival checklist clearly marked 51 squadron with the serial number of the MiG. The tweet above is not from a random tweeter.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 02:23
by southernphantom
armedupdate wrote:F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.


:doh: :doh:

That is a gross oversimplification.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 02:33
by armedupdate
hythelday wrote:
armedupdate wrote:F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.


Except that F-15 never even came close to Mach 2 in combat operations, but OK.

F-15 has a higher cruise speed.

southernphantom wrote:
armedupdate wrote:F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.


:doh: :doh:

That is a gross oversimplification.

Why?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 03:13
by firebase99
armedupdate wrote:
hythelday wrote:
armedupdate wrote:F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.


Except that F-15 never even came close to Mach 2 in combat operations, but OK.

F-15 has a higher cruise speed.

southernphantom wrote:
armedupdate wrote:F-16 should be able to take on SU-30 in BVR. Unlike the F-15 which can Mach 2.5, the SU-30 goes the speed speed as the F-16.


:doh: :doh:

That is a gross oversimplification.

Why?


Because no 4th gen AC will EVER see speeds anywhere remotely close to manufacture top speed in a combat config. 99% of them will never see it ever.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 03:34
by awsome
Photos+of+the+mig21+bisons+shot+down+over+pakistan_09bf52_6964768.jpg
A shot of one of the wrecks. The tail looks more like its from a mirage than a Mig 21 to me.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 03:52
by noth
awsome wrote:
Photos+of+the+mig21+bisons+shot+down+over+pakistan_09bf52_6964768.jpg
A shot of one of the wrecks. The tail looks more like its from a mirage than a Mig 21 to me.


I think it's a Hawk. The tailpipe it too small for a Mirage.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Fqf9_7sIU3k/ ... iner_1.jpg

Also none of the photos of crashed aircraft have timestamps, I'm wondering if we're being fed pictures of previous crashes. India's lost several Hawks over the years. Still no picture or video of the Pakistani fighter India claims to have shot down?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 04:19
by zero-one
Patriot wrote:Bigger radar dish - yes.
More advanced radar in general - likely no.

Isn't the NO11 BARS a Pesa system. I think the Pakistanis still use the MSA APG-68, which pretty small.

Patriot wrote:Id say the AMRAAM is a single most important and key factor in favor of Paks to hold an air superiority over Indians. Whenever an AMRAAM comes off the rail it's asured someome wont go back home that day


Woah I wouldn't go this far. The AMRAAM's Pk currently sits at 60%.... some of those kills are WVR.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 07:04
by weasel1962
basher54321 wrote:Pakistan have posted photos of some of the items the captured pilot had with him including a survival checklist clearly marked 51 squadron with the serial number of the MiG. The tweet above is not from a random tweeter.


51sqn is based at Srinagar in IOK so very near the LOC. Useful to note the Bison is equipped with the R-77.

Lots of interesting perspectives.
It'd be interesting to see whether it was an SD-10, PL-9 or even an AIM-9.
Regardless, what is the missile, it appears to confirm even the older KLJ-7/JF-17 combo works.
That may boost JF-17 sales. Possible knock on sales for J-10s which the chinese have been claiming house better avionics and missiles.
May even result in IAF asking if the LCA is really good enough....

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 07:13
by weasel1962
noth wrote:I think it's a Hawk. The tailpipe it too small for a Mirage.


Hawks are trainers and unlikely to be based anywhere near the LOC (India's case Chabua/Bidar far awy). Won't be redeployed with fight areas either.

Pictures can be doctored = agreed. However, when pilots are captured, difficult to reject or create propaganda. This especially if you want the other party to treat the prisoner as a POW. Hence India had to acknowledge a Mig-21 Bison shoot down. If the PAF shows 2 pilots, then they will acknowledge 2. Since the air strikes were started by India, Pakistan will not have time to go and find a Mig-21 pilot to "doctor" that part of the info at least.

So I'd read at least 1 confirmed kill for PAF.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 08:32
by eloise
Does anyone know what jet engine does Pakistan F-16 use?
Indian show the part that looks like it is from F-110 engine:
Capture.PNG

From what i can find Pakistan F-16 is equipped with F-100PW229 and F-100PW200 engine
PAF engine.jpg

F-100 engine.jpg


Nevermind, zoom up, that wreckage doesn't look like F-110 engine either
f110-ge-100_f-16_11_of_17.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 08:50
by weasel1962
The PAF F-16s are F100-PW-220s equipped. The last batch (which are not based near the LOC) was 229s.

Pakistan had a choice in 2006
http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article1878.html
but they went with 229s. Older ones can also be seen by the upgrade in item 4 below.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article3906.html

The pics are actually Pakistani army looking at the debris (see patches). Indians of course hoping that the downed planes are Pakistani.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 11:17
by hythelday
awsome wrote:
Photos+of+the+mig21+bisons+shot+down+over+pakistan_09bf52_6964768.jpg
A shot of one of the wrecks. The tail looks more like its from a mirage than a Mig 21 to me.


Mirage 2000 with horizontal tail surfaces? That'd more newsworthy than air combat in itself.

Looks indeed like a Hawk.
Image

This is either a recycled photo, or... IDK what the hell were Hawks doing there.

AFP photo clearly shows the frint part of MiG-21, so it's a different wreck.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 11:58
by eloise

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 12:08
by basher54321
hythelday wrote:
Looks indeed like a Hawk.



There were a load of old crash sites posted yesterday including that hawk:

The image of crashed India Air Force's Hawk Mk.132 training jet dates back to 3rd June 2015. It crashed at Mayurbhanj. Both student and instructor ejected safely and survived.

MiG-27
Image of the crashed MiG-27 comes from accident for India Air Force's MiG-27MU with TU657 serial number at Rajasthan's Jodhpur on 12 June 2016.

AN Mi-17 crashed yesterday to add to things:

This is the burning wreckage of India Air Force's Mi-17V-5 which crashed near Srinagar airport. It is located within 120km from Pakistan's territory which makes it impossible for Pakistan to have shot it down by means of any SAM system or even fighter jets.



The Indian side posted a crashed JF-17 from before 2013 that was also being claimed as an F-16 but easily identified as a JF-17.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 12:14
by basher54321
That piece of wreckage above is part of these pictures and there was a video that went round it which clearly showed it was NOT an F-16.


D0Zwwa8XQAA82IK.jpg



This is the other side of that wreckage
D0ZwyKbX4AAa2WY.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 12:25
by basher54321
This posted earlier by Hythelday is probably the best shot of Pakistani soldiers standing over the front crushed end of a MiG-21 Bison. Took me a while at first to recognise that was a nose cone.

MiG-21bison down in Pakistan.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 13:40
by basher54321
Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman might be released



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47399126

Pakistan will release a captured Indian pilot as a "peace gesture" on Friday, Prime Minister Imran Khan has said.
Mr Khan revealed the decision in parliament after a speech in which he said Pakistan was focused on de-escalation.
Pakistan shot down the pilot's jet on Wednesday, as tensions rose with India over the disputed region of Kashmir.
The capture of Abhinandan Varthaman was a major setback for India. Both sides are under pressure to calm tensions.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 14:14
by basher54321
Now seems to be a claim this was found on the Indian side of the LOC.

So could be from anywhere but there is a serial so can at least be identified if it is more BS.

AMRAAM found Indian side.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 14:51
by mixelflick
basher54321 wrote:Now seems to be a claim this was found on the Indian side of the LOC.

So could be from anywhere but there is a serial so can at least be identified if it is more BS.

AMRAAM found Indian side.jpg


IF it's legit, it could prove anything from a crashed F-16 to an AMRAAM the F-16 fired missed to an AMRAAM the F-16 fired hit, etc.. I don't think AMRAAM's are fitted to the J/C-17 but OTOH, I suppose it's possible.

Doesn't prove much IMO..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 14:58
by zero-one
They're now using F-16.net to push that an F-16 was shot down

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 15:15
by basher54321
Desperate times calls for desperate measures I guess :doh:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 15:19
by basher54321
mixelflick wrote:
IF it's legit, it could prove anything from a crashed F-16 to an AMRAAM the F-16 fired missed to an AMRAAM the F-16 fired hit, etc.. I don't think AMRAAM's are fitted to the J/C-17 but OTOH, I suppose it's possible.

Doesn't prove much IMO..


If it is false at least they might have done a bit more homework on this one because looking back AMRAAM sales to Pak look to have been C-5s. It's a step up from trying to pass off random bits of metal as an F-16.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 16:05
by basher54321
So that piece of AMRAAM that possibly shot down an IAF jet quickly found its way to an Indian News briefing.

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/p ... 2019-02-28

amraaminIndia.JPG




They are going mad for it

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 9553796103

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 16:24
by Patriot
Looks staged to me.
How high is the probability that AIM-120 tears up itself so the entire description of the type/version/sn will be clearly visible?

But... if that piece comes from an AMRAAM indeed I bet they pulled it out of the smoking wreckage of Su-30MKI that hit the dirt on Indian side of the border.

It may only serve as the proof of the F-16 involvment but there is 0 evidence provided that any F-16 was shot down. On the other hand if Paks downed a Flanker they might dont want to show the HUDcam recording from the engagement as they claimed before there were no Vipers involved. If theres a downed Su-30 on the Indian side they dont show it either

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 16:42
by basher54321
Well interesting how easy it was to find the contract number listed on that wreckage - although am not familiar with Tiawan as a country - perhaps a typo for Taiwan or Pakistan. :D (Suppose they could have been diverted at some stage)

Tiawan.JPG


https://fas.org/programs/ssp/asmp/facts ... 1_FY09.pdf



ContractNumber.JPG

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 17:09
by hythelday
Patriot wrote:But... if that piece comes from an AMRAAM indeed I bet they pulled it out of the smoking wreckage of Su-30MKI that hit the dirt on Indian side of the border.

It may only serve as the proof of the F-16 involvment but there is 0 evidence provided that any F-16 was shot down.


Where did Su-30 suddenly come from? Please don't spread misinformation.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 17:56
by Patriot
On Day One of that mini war Paks made a claim they shoot down 2 aircrafts: one being MiG-21 (confirmed) and the other which was meant to be the Su-30MKI. Also Indians confirmed the Su-30 involvment in the operation but denied the loss of any Su-30. Also Paks denied F-16s involvement as well as denied a loss of any. Judging only by the Aim-120 piece we can assume Pak F-16s was likely there in contrary of what Paks says.
Could it be that MiG-21 shoot the F-16 down as Indians say? Or did Paks downed both MiG21 and Su-30 but for some good reason dont want to admit their F-16s were there?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 18:16
by mixelflick
Patriot wrote:On Day One of that mini war Paks made a claim they shoot down 2 aircrafts: one being MiG-21 (confirmed) and the other which was meant to be the Su-30MKI. Also Indians confirmed the Su-30 involvment in the operation but denied the loss of any Su-30. Also Paks denied F-16s involvement as well as denied a loss of any. Judging only by the Aim-120 piece we can assume Pak F-16s was likely there in contrary of what Paks says.
Could it be that MiG-21 shoot the F-16 down as Indians say? Or did Paks downed both MiG21 and Su-30 but for some good reason dont want to admit their F-16s were there?


Any of those and more are possibilities. The F-16 and SU-30 being the premiere air to air platforms used by either side, each has a vested interest insofar as covering up a loss.

Personally, I don't see where admitting to either is losing face. The ROE's and particulars of an engagement between the two would be far more telling. If an F-16 was shot down by a Flanker 1 vs. 1, that's one thing. If the F-16 was outnumbered 5 to 1 and shot down 4 Flankers before being downed by the 5th, that's quite another.

Regardless, the following maxim usually applies: "The first casualty of war is the truth...".

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 18:22
by icemaverick
Patriot wrote:But... if that piece comes from an AMRAAM indeed I bet they pulled it out of the smoking wreckage of Su-30MKI that hit the dirt on Indian side of the border.


I didn’t read anywhere that the AMRAAM was qualified on the Su-30MKI? It carries the R-77 and the Indian-made Astra. Does India even have any AMRAAMs? I know they have R-77 and MICAs. They also will be buying the Meteor for their Rafales I believe. I think they may have some Israeli A2A missiles in their inventory.

Pakistan might want to lie about the use of F-16s for two major reasons. First, they don’t want to piss off Uncle Sam. Given that US-Pakistan relations have been rocky as of late, it’s possible the US could cut off supplies for the F-16 as they have done it the past. That’s some powerful leverage the US government has over Pakistan. Second, they want to advertise the capability of the JF-17....they didn’t need the F-16, the JF-17 was up to the task.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 18:26
by Patriot
mixel

agreed.
Agreed.
Totally AGREED.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 19:09
by Patriot
icemaverick

The integration of an Aim-120 within the russian made fighters is quite an expedited nad simplified process. It occure when the two are coliding at high rate of speed.
Here's an example of successful integration of Aim-120 on MiG-29

Image

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 19:37
by basher54321
Yes the Pakistanis were claiming 2 aircraft with one going down the Indian side and they stated no F-16s took part - but I have not seen anything direct denying they had lost no jets at all just F-16s.

India admits to losing one MiG-21 Bison and claims to have shot down a PAF fighter jet that landed Pakistan side. They claim the AMRAAM wreckage and signals detected via SiGInt seem to prove F-16s were about however they are still none the wiser to know what they shot down (if anything).


Feb 19th 2019 3 of the India Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team (SKAT) collided killing Wing Commander Sahil Gandhi


https://www.thenewsminute.com/article/t ... 2019-97084

Sahil is on the left apparently:
WC SahillGandi.jpg


https://www.rediff.com/news/special/don ... 190221.htm


Notice the patch he is wearing looks identical to the one on this guy - so this chap is probably one of the 2 display pilots that got out OK.

DisplayPilot.JPG

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 19:37
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That's an R-73 in the foreground

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 19:42
by basher54321
Looks like Polish humour at work - I hope I don't have to explain the Polish method of AMRAAM integration.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 20:02
by basher54321
More shots of the MiG-21 wreckage that the Indian media is still claiming is an F-16 :doh: :doh:

MiG-21Crash1.jpg


MiG-21Crash2.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 20:05
by Patriot
Basher go ahead and explain. Im curious...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 20:13
by sprstdlyscottsmn
:doh:

basher54321 wrote:Looks like Polish humour at work - I hope I don't have to explain the Polish method of AMRAAM integration.

I get it now.

I think I failed to read the entire middle part of the post. That's on me.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 20:31
by noth
Still no video footage of the bomb strikes by the Mirage 2000Hs. You'd think the IAF would have a sleak presentation all setup and ready by now.

Certainly the information war is raging, throwing every crashed plane's footage out that they can find but both airforces seem to be keeping mum about any planes that may have crashed within their own territory. Would be bad for moral and all that. Indian gov is pushing on social media companies not to publish anything that could demoralize the population, so you can see where that's going.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 20:57
by basher54321
More typos - who knows.


No: 1168-06
November 17, 2006

Raytheon Co., Tucson, Ariz., is being awarded a $269,646,834 firm-fixed-price contract modification. This action is exercising an option to purchase 500 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) Air Vehicles (AAVs) Air Intercept Missile (AIM) – 120C-5 missiles and rehost. This effort supports foreign military sales to Pakistan 100%. At this time, total funds have been obligated. This work will be complete April 2011. Headquarters Medium Range Missile Systems Group, Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., is the contracting activity (FA8675-05-C-0070/P00028).


http://archive.defense.gov/Contracts/Co ... actID=3384

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 21:59
by Patriot
Such a shame the Monty Python's Flying Circus are out of business. I see a whole another season based on that quasi war. A month from now each coutry's public tv and media outlets will still be desperately trying to convince each other on who shoot down whom more by tossing a photoshoped crash sites back n forth to prove their point.

I hope the search for an F-16/Su-30 crash site will be advancing soon!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 22:35
by marsavian
http://tass.com/world/1046940

NEW DELHI, February 28. /TASS/. Eight fighter jets of the Indian Air Force took on 24 Pakistani jets in an unprecedented air combat over the India-controlled disputed Kashmir region, India’s NDTV television reported on Thursday.

According to the TVChannel, the Pakistani Air Force strike group included eight F-16s, four Mirage-3 aircraft and four Chinese-made JF-17 "Thunder" fighters. The other aircraft were escort fighters to protect the Pakistan strike formation from any retaliation.

"The large Pakistani attack formation was detected at 9.45 am, when they came within 10 km of the Line of Control," the TVChannel reported.

The Pakistani aircraft were intercepted by eight jets of the Indian Air Force, which included four Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG 21 planes, the TVChannel reported.

The Indian Air Force’s planes prevented the Pakistani fighters from delivering precision strikes against ground targets on the India-controlled territory of the disputed Kashmir region, the TVChannel said.

The details of the first massive air combat between the Indian and Pakistani fighters since the third Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 emerged as India waited for the release of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman from Pakistan's captivity.

The wing commander was in pursuit of a Pakistani F-16 jet, which he shot down with an R-73 air-to-air missile.

"Both pilots were seen parachuting down on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control," the TVChannel said.

At that moment, an AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) struck his aircraft, after which Varthaman was forced to eject and landed onto the Pakistani side of the Line of Control, where he was captured, the TVChannel said.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 22:50
by firebase99
marsavian wrote:http://tass.com/world/1046940

NEW DELHI, February 28. /TASS/. Eight fighter jets of the Indian Air Force took on 24 Pakistani jets in an unprecedented air combat over the India-controlled disputed Kashmir region, India’s NDTV television reported on Thursday.

According to the TVChannel, the Pakistani Air Force strike group included eight F-16s, four Mirage-3 aircraft and four Chinese-made JF-17 "Thunder" fighters. The other aircraft were escort fighters to protect the Pakistan strike formation from any retaliation.

"The large Pakistani attack formation was detected at 9.45 am, when they came within 10 km of the Line of Control," the TVChannel reported.

The Pakistani aircraft were intercepted by eight jets of the Indian Air Force, which included four Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG 21 planes, the TVChannel reported.

The Indian Air Force’s planes prevented the Pakistani fighters from delivering precision strikes against ground targets on the India-controlled territory of the disputed Kashmir region, the TVChannel said.

The details of the first massive air combat between the Indian and Pakistani fighters since the third Indo-Pakistani War of 1971 emerged as India waited for the release of Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman from Pakistan's captivity.

The wing commander was in pursuit of a Pakistani F-16 jet, which he shot down with an R-73 air-to-air missile.

"Both pilots were seen parachuting down on the Pakistani side of the Line of Control," the TVChannel said.

At that moment, an AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) struck his aircraft, after which Varthaman was forced to eject and landed onto the Pakistani side of the Line of Control, where he was captured, the TVChannel said.


HOLY SH*T!!!! Is this legit??????????

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 22:55
by Patriot
Yes. It's legitimately made up.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 22:58
by marsavian
The Indian aircraft have the ELTA EL/L-8222 jamming pod and the Pakistani F-16s have the AN/ALQ-211 AIDEWS which would tend to make the air combat between the two WVR and/or low range BVR, ~20nm and under.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 23:01
by firebase99
Patriot wrote:Yes. It's legitimately made up.


It does sound a bit extreme....

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 23:06
by marsavian
Is this legit?


Official Indian line but we know two things for sure, one downed Mig-21 and one used recovered AMRAAM so we know for sure an F-16 shot down a Mig-21 which the Indians admit. As for the other shootdown in reverse well the Pakistanis would not admit it if they could hide the evidence ...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 23:13
by Patriot
So far a total number of 0 conclusive evidence to support Indian version of the story particularly about bringing the F-16 down. They should try a bit harder.

The fact that AMRAAM was in the air flying towards Indian border is enough for me to make me believe there were F-16s involved.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 28 Feb 2019, 23:21
by basher54321
firebase99 wrote:HOLY SH*T!!!! Is this legit??????????



Anything with "according to the TVChannel" in it you can probably always dismiss :D

It is though pretty much the same story they have stuck to since the shoot down so at least they are consistent.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 00:25
by weasel1962
The Indian propaganda is a bit clumsy.

The paf shot down a mig so it was a sukhoi that shot down an f-16. Then the paf claimed 2 pilots captured, so the number of parachutes seen from the "f-16" went up from 1 to 2. Then it becomes the mig shooting down the f-16. Then all the attempts to try and provide evidence of an engine part that is not used to at least now a missile part that at least is used but may have been delivered to a wrong country.

A consistent story, no matter how unbelievable, tends to be a more believable story than one that changes all the time especially to try to suit an idea, rather than a fact. It's worse when planes have flight recorders whose footage release would be much more believable...

The Pakistanis are probably more wicked. If there is a 2nd pilot captured, then the press and iaf would either have done a disservice to the pilot by keeping quiet or would be forced into an embarrassing admission of a 2nd shoot down. If untrue, that's still going to create a stir about whether the story is true.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 01:10
by firebase99
They state that THIRTY TWO aircraft were involved? I find that...dubious.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 01:24
by h-bomb
basher54321 wrote:Now seems to be a claim this was found on the Indian side of the LOC.

So could be from anywhere but there is a serial so can at least be identified if it is more BS.

AMRAAM found Indian side.jpg


Any weapons troops who can comment on the markings??

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 01:24
by Patriot
Weasel I agree.

Moreover. Does an F-16 can be shoot down by MiG-21? Affirmative. In theory a P-51 Mustang could shoot at F-22 and bring it down. Do we have any evidence that ti ever occured. No. Do we have any substancial tangible evidence indian MiG took out pakistani F-16? No, we do not. All indian "evidence" is solely rethorical thus inconclusive. Easily they could claim Pakistani F-16 was shot down by kids playing with a slingshot out in the field.

If I were Indians and I want to prove my story but have no access to a theoretical wreckage as supposingly is in this case Id rather release some more compelling evidence to make the adversary to prove me wrong. For example: Indians should release an audio comms from that engagement at least in the part that would include a Fox 2 and Splash calls, something that would outright indicate Indians in fact hit something, maybe an F-16.
Until that happen it's all a fairy tale / damage control tactics :bang:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 01:46
by basher54321
This video has other parts of the MiG-21 wreckage - there was a better version yesterday.
https://twitter.com/Shk_Naseer/status/1 ... 8041025536


Higher res but edited - Sputnik are running this as F-16 debris :D
https://twitter.com/i/status/1101142416399192066

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 01:50
by basher54321
Patriot wrote:For example: Indians should release an audio comms from that engagement at least in the part that would include a Fox 2 and Splash calls, something that would outright indicate Indians in fact hit something, maybe an F-16.
Until that happen it's all a fairy tale / damage control tactics :bang:


Best not give Social Media too many more ideas the whole thing has been weak up to now - but quite entertaining.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 01:52
by Patriot
basher54321 wrote:Higher res but edited - Sputnik are running this as F-16 debris :D
https://twitter.com/i/status/1101142416399192066


Something's fishy here..
Oh Wait. It's FISHBED a.k.a. MiG-21 :thumb: puzzle

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 03:01
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:http://tass.com/world/1046940

NEW DELHI, February 28. /TASS/. Eight fighter jets of the Indian Air Force took on 24 Pakistani jets in an unprecedented air combat over the India-controlled disputed Kashmir region, India’s NDTV television reported on Thursday.

According to the TVChannel, the Pakistani Air Force strike group included eight F-16s, four Mirage-3 aircraft and four Chinese-made JF-17 "Thunder" fighters. The other aircraft were escort fighters to protect the Pakistan strike formation from any retaliation.

"The large Pakistani attack formation was detected at 9.45 am, when they came within 10 km of the Line of Control," the TVChannel reported.

The Pakistani aircraft were intercepted by eight jets of the Indian Air Force, which included four Sukhoi Su-30MKIs, two upgraded Mirage 2000s and two MiG 21 planes, the TVChannel reported.

[more bullshit from TASS]


basher54321 wrote:Higher res but edited - Sputnik are running this as F-16 debris :D
https://twitter.com/i/status/1101142416399192066


WOW, two Russian propaganda mouthpieces running a story it's F-16 must be legit... NOT

They want to use f-16.net as a source? sure why not?

Image
INDIA STRONK user wants to prove numbers on a random box a proof? Be my guest:

Image

So according to INDIA STRONK users it's a former Jordanian F-16B, and they use f-16.net as a proof. Well, too bad for them, because according to them it's an "80269" airframe, a former Dutch F-16BM that was brought down and the same f-16.net says that it wasn't the airframe that Pakistan acquired from Jordan:

The one two-seater F-16 Pakistan acquired from Jordan in 2014 is number 14627:
Image

and not the 80269 as INDIA STRONK poster says.

Moreover, let's examine the wreckage:

Image

Sorry, INDIA STRONK but no matter what you and your loyal Russsia truth websites say, this ain't an F-16, this is a MiG-21 wreck.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 03:18
by fbw
Disappointed in the IAF, there are so many holes in this. The serial number claim is junk. Marker on parts with an incorrect serial? Second, the claimed Jordanian transfer was block 30 aircraft. The serial was a block 10 aircraft of the RNLAF retrofitted to block 20 MLU. The wreckage is not an F-16. So far, all we can say is that Pakistan lied about F-16 involvement, which isn’t a surprise. That would be a diplomatic black eye. L-M would have a hard time selling the F-21 under the pretense “we kill your legacy fleet so buy ours” JK

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 04:27
by eloise
The wreckage where they found the series number belongs to Indian aircraft
Capture.PNG

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 05:02
by armedupdate
Is it fair to say Pakistan has "won" this engagement?

i am not sure if the bombs dropped was enough to kill 300 terrorists in a couple sorties. Meanwhile India just lost millions of dollars of planes.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 05:36
by fbw
armedupdate wrote:Is it fair to say Pakistan has "won" this engagement?

i am not sure if the bombs dropped was enough to kill 300 terrorists in a couple sorties. Meanwhile India just lost millions of dollars of planes.


India “lost” the twitter idiot public OSINT battle. But Pakistan is also the country who claims no terrorists live in its territory, and that its fighting Islamic fundamentalist terror groups. Osama could have been featured in “I heart Pakistan commercials” and they’d still be saying no terrorist groups were based there. We will see who the winner is if India is spared more terror attacks. That would be worth one MiG-21.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 08:31
by marsavian
So is this faux-F-16 aka Mig-21 wreckage the Indians are showing the same aircraft the Pakistanis showed of the actual one shot down or does it show another Mig-21 has been shot down ?

Original NDTV report of the encounter including video report.

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/24-paki ... rs-2000703

The Air Force fighters gave chase to the Pakistani jets on their return leg after they had dropped a handful of laser-guided bombs that narrowly missed their military targets along the Line of Control.

Wing Commander Abhinandan Varthaman was in hot pursuit of a Pakistani F-16, which his radar had locked onto.

Despite being warned by other aircraft in the formation about the presence of Pakistani fighters, he pushed home his attack and fired an R-73 air-to-air missile.

At this stage of the air-to-air encounter, the pilot's wingman was also exposed and vulnerable.

Two missiles were fired by Pakistani F-16s. One of them, an AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile) struck his aircraft, while another missed his wingman.

The Wing Commander was forced to eject and landed into the Pakistani side of Line of Control, where he was captured. Pakistan has announced that he will be released tomorrow.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 08:37
by rockstar139
I got a question here guys, according to the video I received

1. Abhinandan was not alone when ejected, after his capture local people were shouting "Go!! find the second one" and there is video showing two parachutes coming out of the plane!

2. Abhinandan was found in samani sector of Pakistan side of Kashmir (on LOC), and Indian's finds the wreckage of AMRAAM in Rajori sector, which is on Indian side of Kashmir(on LOC), you can say both sectors are neighbors across LOC.

Can we say that Abhinandan was in two seater? And his plane was hit by AMRAAM?

Share your thoughts. . .

Patriot wrote:
basher54321 wrote:Higher res but edited - Sputnik are running this as F-16 debris :D
https://twitter.com/i/status/1101142416399192066


Something's fishy here..
Oh Wait. It's FISHBED a.k.a. MiG-21 :thumb: puzzle

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 09:08
by vm
In his official press conference after the shooting down of the mig21, the Pakistani maj General, the official spokesperson clearly said that 2 pilots were detained. With one in custody while other was in admitted in hospital.
After the Indians accepted one mig21 with a pilot was missing he changed his official statement to one pilot detained.
With Pakistani eyewitnesses also claiming 2 parachutes being seen, their seems a real possibility that the Pakistanis actually lost a plane and realized late that it was their own plane.
https://youtu.be/EkGeXOiGhBU
At 4.45 he clearly claims that 2 were captured.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 09:13
by weasel1962
The difference being that Pakistan also claimed the 2nd plane landed in IOK which means the Indians actually have the wreckage. If it was truly an f-16, you can be sure it would have been all over TV by now.

Its interesting how India actually got the Amraam. It couldn't have been from the 1st kill right since that was in Pakistan? So if its likely from the 2nd plane in IOK...

Right now, its still 1 confirmed kill by PAF and 1 helo lost. The helo lost probably costs the Indians far more.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 09:44
by eloise
marsavian wrote:So is this faux-F-16 aka Mig-21 wreckage the Indians are showing the same aircraft the Pakistanis showed of the actual one shot down or does it show another Mig-21 has been shot down ?

Original NDTV report of the encounter including video report

It is the same one
6591671_original.jpg

image_260866.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:07
by madrat
The pictures above are unrelated. The numerous objects around the two wreckage in each case suggest no relation.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:18
by wil59
mixelflick wrote:
zero-one wrote:Would it be crazy for me to say that IAF is far more powerful than the PAF. Forget the fact that India has far more money than Pakistan.

But in air superiority fighters the F-16 is really only superior in a high speed dogfight. In BVR the AMRAAMs should also give the Viper advantages but the Su-30s of the IAF has a bigger more advanced radar than Pakistani Vipers, more support assets like AEWACS and I think there are more of them available too...

So India could really enforce a no fly zone on their border with Pakistan and they would have the upper hand. Am I missing things here?


On paper the Indian air force is quite superior. They also hold several real advantages, like numbers.

The SU-30 does have the bigger radar. But it's an open question if it's better than the block 50 Vipers Pakistan is flying. BVR missiles I'd have to give it to Pakistani AMRAAM C-5's (don't think we sold them C-7's). The F-16 will present a much smaller RCS vs the Flanker, and WVR it will be harder to see.

If it comes to a knife fight, the F-16/Flanker matchup will be quite interesting. The F-16 is the ultimate rate machine, the Flanker's low speed nose pointing authority is legendary. In that event, I bet it'll come down to missiles. I don't think Pakistan has the 9x. So if the Flanker has the R-73/AA-11, I'd have to give it to the Flanker.

One thing's for sure: Anyone with even a passing interest in military aviation will be watching..
It's si not obvious ! Mirage 2000 ? VS su-30 VS F16 block50/52 Apg 69 ? RCS: F16 /Mirage 2000 < SU-30.
RDY-2 (mirage 2000-5 / -9) Inde M2000 = 2000-5
can follow - 24 targets
can simultaneously engage - 4 targets
maximum for 5 m² RCS - 80 km

APG-68 (V) 9 (on Block F-16 52) APG-68
Max Track for 5 m² RCS - 80 km Max Track amraam/c5 range 100 km ( pk 60.) Mica EM range 80 km (pk 93) Mica IR range 50 km ECM: F16 vs Mirage 2000 vs SU-30 ?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:37
by hythelday
vm wrote:In his official press conference after the shooting down of the mig21, the Pakistani maj General, the official spokesperson clearly said that 2 pilots were detained. With one in custody while other was in admitted in hospital.
After the Indians accepted one mig21 with a pilot was missing he changed his official statement to one pilot detained.
With Pakistani eyewitnesses also claiming 2 parachutes being seen, their seems a real possibility that the Pakistanis actually lost a plane and realized late that it was their own plane.
https://youtu.be/EkGeXOiGhBU
At 4.45 he clearly claims that 2 were captured.


If you joined the forum just to push one side's agenda - just quit.

Instead if describing what "eyewitnesses said", maybe post some sources?

Initial oral statements by both sides are WRONG. Either by honest mistake or deliberate lie. India said that all planes returned safely - and had to eat their words. Pakistan said no F-16, but IF that AMRAAM piece is legit they also lied. Can't trust either side.

So far evidence suggests only one MiG-21 downed; not two planes as Pakistan said, not 2+1 as India soon tried to amend; the downed plane is neither a F-16 nor Su-30MKI.

Got some proof overwise? Share, I will gladly change my mind in the face if beliveble evidence.

madrat wrote:The pictures above are unrelated. The numerous objects around the two wreckage in each case suggest no relation.


If there are numerous objects I fail ti spot them. Are you saying that nose section of Bison from AFP photo and two pictures of tail section are unrelated, or that the two pictures of tail section are not related between each other?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:43
by vm
hythelday wrote:
vm wrote:In his official press conference after the shooting down of the mig21, the Pakistani maj General, the official spokesperson clearly said that 2 pilots were detained. With one in custody while other was in admitted in hospital.
After the Indians accepted one mig21 with a pilot was missing he changed his official statement to one pilot detained.
With Pakistani eyewitnesses also claiming 2 parachutes being seen, their seems a real possibility that the Pakistanis actually lost a plane and realized late that it was their own plane.
https://youtu.be/EkGeXOiGhBU
At 4.45 he clearly claims that 2 were captured.


If you joined the forum just to push one side's agenda - just quit.

Instead if describing what "eyewitnesses said", maybe post some sources?

Initial oral statements by both sides are WRONG. Either by honest mistake or deliberate lie. India said that all planes returned safely - and had to eat their words. Pakistan said no F-16, but IF that AMRAAM piece is legit they also lied. Can't trust either side.

So far evidence suggests only one MiG-21 downed; not two planes as Pakistan said, not 2+1 as India soon tried to amend; the downed plane is neither a F-16 nor Su-30MKI.

Got some proof overwise? Share, I will gladly change my mind in the face if beliveble evidence.

Can you give me any proof of a official Indian statement that all planes returned safely.? Don't give me media references . The mig 21 was downed at 10 am and the official Indian statement came at 3.30 pm accepting loss of a mig21.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:50
by hythelday
vm wrote:
hythelday wrote:
vm wrote:In his official press conference after the shooting down of the mig21, the Pakistani maj General, the official spokesperson clearly said that 2 pilots were detained. With one in custody while other was in admitted in hospital.
After the Indians accepted one mig21 with a pilot was missing he changed his official statement to one pilot detained.
With Pakistani eyewitnesses also claiming 2 parachutes being seen, their seems a real possibility that the Pakistanis actually lost a plane and realized late that it was their own plane.
https://youtu.be/EkGeXOiGhBU
At 4.45 he clearly claims that 2 were captured.


If you joined the forum just to push one side's agenda - just quit.

Instead if describing what "eyewitnesses said", maybe post some sources?

Initial oral statements by both sides are WRONG. Either by honest mistake or deliberate lie. India said that all planes returned safely - and had to eat their words. Pakistan said no F-16, but IF that AMRAAM piece is legit they also lied. Can't trust either side.

So far evidence suggests only one MiG-21 downed; not two planes as Pakistan said, not 2+1 as India soon tried to amend; the downed plane is neither a F-16 nor Su-30MKI.

Got some proof overwise? Share, I will gladly change my mind in the face if beliveble evidence.

Can you give me any proof of a official Indian statement that all planes returned safely.? Don't give me media references . The mig 21 was downed at 10 am and the official Indian statement came at 3.30 pm accepting loss of a mig21.


How about you give me sources to what you said, first?

"Don't give me media references" - well I be damned, but that how info is communicated. Maybe ask me to provide official IAF statement that they lied too? At least you agree with me that Indian media is rubbish.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 10:57
by hythelday
eloise wrote:The wreckage where they found the series number belongs to Indian aircraft
Capture.PNG


Where can one look up IAF serial numbers?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 11:33
by eloise
hythelday wrote:
eloise wrote:The wreckage where they found the series number belongs to Indian aircraft
Capture.PNG


Where can one look up IAF serial numbers?

I mean, Indian claimed the wreckage belong to an F-16 from the series number
But in fact, the wreck is only the other side of the downed Mig-21

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 13:07
by vm
hythelday wrote:
vm wrote:
vm wrote:In his official press conference after the shooting down of the mig21, the Pakistani maj General, the official spokesperson clearly said that 2 pilots were detained. With one in custody while other was in admitted in hospital.
After the Indians accepted one mig21 with a pilot was missing he changed his official statement to one pilot detained.
With Pakistani eyewitnesses also claiming 2 parachutes being seen, their seems a real possibility that the Pakistanis actually lost a plane and realized late that it was their own plane.
https://youtu.be/EkGeXOiGhBU
At 4.45 he clearly claims that 2 were captured.


If you joined the forum just to push one side's agenda - just quit.

Instead if describing what "eyewitnesses said", maybe post some sources?

Initial oral statements by both sides are WRONG. Either by honest mistake or deliberate lie. India said that all planes returned safely - and had to eat their words. Pakistan said no F-16, but IF that AMRAAM piece is legit they also lied. Can't trust either side.

So far evidence suggests only one MiG-21 downed; not two planes as Pakistan said, not 2+1 as India soon tried to amend; the downed plane is neither a F-16 nor Su-30MKI.

Got some proof overwise? Share, I will gladly change my mind in the face if beliveble evidence.


How about you give me sources to what you said, first?

"Don't give me media references" - well I be damned, but that how info is communicated. Maybe ask me to provide official IAF statement that they lied too? At least you agree with me that Indian media is rubbish.

I have given you a video with the official Pakistani spokesperson saying they have 2 pilots in custody.
Now you give me a similar Indian statement from a OFFICIAL source, not a media story claiming sources.
Their are official sources and unverified sources. I have explained this to you in as simple words as I can. Sorry can't draw pictures for you.
And yes Indian media like media everywhere is rubbish.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 13:23
by hythelday
vm wrote:After the Indians accepted one mig21 with a pilot was missing he changed his official statement to one pilot detained.With Pakistani eyewitnesses also claiming 2 parachutes being seen, their seems a real possibility that the Pakistanis actually lost a plane and realized late that it was their own plane.
https://youtu.be/EkGeXOiGhBU
At 4.45 he clearly claims that 2 were captured.


Pakistani claims are false, even official, i.e. denial of F-16 involvement. You are willing to selectively believe them that they have 2 pilots, but don't believe them when they say they brought down two Indian planes.

You are pushing this "two parachute" theory to try to obfuscate and generate false claims that a second plane was brought down, and that the second plane was Pakistani. What Pakistani eyewitnesses? Hearsay isn't going to cut it.

If you have proof of F-16 crash - post it. Otherwise stop this BS.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 13:34
by mixelflick
Patriot wrote:mixel

agreed.
Agreed.
Totally AGREED.


Thanks brother...

As for the rest of what's being said here.. I really wish I got high before reading this thread

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 14:30
by Shimud
This thread is losing substance and facts, rather gearing towards myths and hearsay typical of South Asian folks, who believe in later rather then considering and adhering to the former.
The emotions are running high but the rational approach, i.e. you must never let you emotions overcome your wisdom should always prevail.

A few points to consider before you guys start the war of words once again.

Indians made a botched attempt to carry out a cross-border hit on alleged JeM training camp. Failed.
They dropped the lump of metal but had no idea where they are dropping it.
Check this link (Its from Atlantic Council's Digital Forensic Research Lab):
https://medium.com/dfrlab/surgical-stri ... 6cda834b24

Next, they called a press conference where their high ranking foreign officials made a blatant lie of eliminating 300+ folks.
What a shame. Despicable.

The pictures included in the link above correspond with what the Pakistanis presented to the world later on, with an official word from their military spokesperson that Indians did attempt but fled without causing any man or material damage.
(By the way, the attack did kill a crow! I am not kidding.)

Pakistanis announced that they will follow suit. And they did.
Lured Indian aircraft and shot down atleast 1. Indian pilot was in their custody and I think due to be relased today.
The wreckage presented by Pakistanis is nothing but a MiG-21.
(Indians are presenting it as a Pakistani F-16, with the wreckage inside Pakistani territory and hell bent to prove that its an F-16. For God's sake how low can one go....)

Mind it that the wreckage lying on the ground in Indian controlled Kashmir is a chopper, Mi-17, with six souls perished.

There is nothing more. Nothing less.
The AMRAAM, with dubious credentials, has been introduced in the story. This thread contains the history of the specific missile. It doesn't belong to India or Pakistan.
Where did it come from, crashed chopper or did it fell out of sky itself? If the crashed F-16 is lying in Pakistan, how come AMRAAM landed in India? Did it hit the chopper or MiG-21? If its later, why isn't it lying with MiG?
Pakistanis say that they have not used F-16s rather JF-17s. God knows if they have used an F7-PG for it.

Three guys falling out of sky, two aircraft hits by Pakistan, an F-16 gone, an Su-30MKI gone, AMRAAMs used....and add more spices, together with a pinch of salt, the recipe is perfect for the consumption of South asians.

The funniest part is the Indian claim that 24 Pakistani aircraft attached them and they defended with 8.
Speaks volumes regarding how capable IAF is. 24 birds and no kill? (Do not bring in fictitious F-16 kill in the story again :doh: )

Peace and prosperity to all of you and think before you write.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 14:58
by Patriot
There's a few good ways to prove beyond contestation bringing down the other air force's jet without showing its wrackage at all.

The fact nothing like this happened to this far tells me:
a) no other fighter really crashed there other than indian MiG-21 likely bringed down by pakistani fire
b) assuming a) as an actuality both sides have done "their best" to push the narrative that showcases them in a best way possible at the same time actively dissmissing the achievments of the enemy either real or fictional.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:07
by botsing
Patriot wrote:There's a few good ways to prove beyond contestation bringing down the other air force's jet without showing its wrackage at all.

What are these "few good ways"?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:14
by Patriot
botsing wrote:What are these "few good ways"?


- Satellite Imagining
- Sensor telemetry data
- Radar Picture
- Audio records from the fight
- HUD cam recordings
- Targeting pods recordings in IR or TV mode

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:23
by botsing
Patriot wrote:
botsing wrote:What are these "few good ways"?


- Satellite Imagining
- Sensor telemetry data
- Radar Picture
- Audio records from the fight
- HUD cam recordings
- Targeting pods recordings in IR or TV mode

So in essence everything that is pretty easy to fake these days?

For crash sites you can invite the independent foreign press to visit the wreckage, but data is just data and easy to manipulate.

Ps, LOL @ "Satellite Imagining"

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:27
by tbarlow
I can't wait to see which Viper scored the air-to-air kill!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:36
by vilters
tbarlow wrote:I can't wait to see which Viper scored the air-to-air kill!


LOL, none of them did that.

The 120 plate came from a scrap e-bay sale.
Bought for : "Well, one never knows when it might become handy". (At least we got one with believable numbers, I hope? ? ? )

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:36
by Patriot
Sat Imagery. My korean dumbphone autocorrect is quite faulty.

I dont think it's that easy to manipulate.
Look how many audio-visual evidence is avilable from Agean Sea where Greeks and Turks throw iron on each other on daily basis basically. Look on Baltic Air policing mission over Baltic states - how many youtube videos emerged from it. Does anybody question it?

Moreover. If one side step forward and put a substancial evidence against the other - the other side is forced to respond but not on a rethorical level as we witnessed so far.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:43
by basher54321
Shimud wrote:
There is nothing more. Nothing less.
The AMRAAM, with dubious credentials, has been introduced in the story. This thread contains the history of the specific missile. It doesn't belong to India or Pakistan.
Where did it come from, crashed chopper or did it fell out of sky itself? If the crashed F-16 is lying in Pakistan, how come AMRAAM landed in India? Did it hit the chopper or MiG-21? If its later, why isn't it lying with MiG?


If it is a forgery it needed to be pretty good with the correct numbers on it especially considering if they are trying to influence the US. The US can check where that missile came from very quickly so India would look very stupid considering it appears to be IAF personnel at that press conference.

Most likely considering it is nowhere near anything else - it was fired at an aerial target. It might have hit something, or it might not have hit anything other than the ground. Could it have fallen off an F-16 by itself - anything is possible but this just has a far lower probability. (also as mentioned earlier the chopper crashed ~120KM from the border.)

F-16s could have been covering the strikers on their way back into Pakistan territory so could have engaged MiGs chasing any of those in which case they could argue they were still being used in a self defence role.

Then insert scenario XYZ because this is all pie in the sky at the moment. Will Pakistan release similar stories as the Indians have and will they match up or will they just leave it at that.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 15:49
by botsing
Patriot wrote:Moreover. If one side step forward and put a substancial evidence against the other - the other side is forced to respond but not on a rethorical level as we witnessed so far.

It has to be substantial first, like showing an actual wreck.

The AIM-120 part is a good example on how hard it is to give actual substantial evidence: there is already enough FUD going on that its legitimacy is (rightly?) in doubt by many.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:20
by zero-one
Look at the difference in engine sizes. that PW-F100 is gigantic by comparison.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:29
by Patriot
I worked ten years on MiG-21MF/BIS.
This is the augmentor pipe from a Tumansky R-25 engine that powers MiG-21BIS and its indian customization the Bison.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:40
by Patriot
One thing yet about the AMRAAM piece showed by Indians.

Does anybody really realise how much of an actual qenuine LUCK is required to stumble upon the piece of missile coming from an object as small as AMRAAM fired in generally random direction over the theritory as remote and vast as Kashmir?
It's another clue that makes me doubtful about the authencity of the amraam case here. Not so long ago Spanish Typhoon accidently fired an AMRAAM due north towards Estonia. It was searched by half of the NATO and never found.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 16:44
by botsing
Patriot wrote:Not so long ago Spanish Typhoon accidently fired an AMRAAM due north towards Estonia. It was searched by half of the NATO and never found.

I partly agree, though in Estonia the missile was in one piece and might have dug itself into the ground.

It sounds logical that many fragments are a lot more easy to find.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 17:27
by Patriot
Here's my last post on this topic and a little conspiracy theory/practical reality.

Id rather believe Indians recovered that AMRAAM piece out of their downed Su-30MKI rather than randomly found it in bushes somewhere. The wreckage of Su-30 was quickly surrounded by indian troops and later they burried the crash site to effectively get rid of the evidence.
I wonder also about the scensrio where some indian aircraft was hit by AMRAAM but was able to RTB safely so thats how they get in posesion of that debrie. Both of these posibilities to me are far more likely than random Discovery of a missile part on the dirt.

Pakis know they took down Flanker but want to deny F-16 involvement at all costs. Indisns know they lost a Flanker but wont admit that as this would be too much of a shame to stand. In this curcoimstances any harm that Indians were able to do Pakis was by pushing hard the story of downed F-16 while showing AMRAAM part which in an obvious way undermines Pakis claims that F-16s werent there bacause they were. Now at least Indians exposed Pakis to American anger/sanctions as the Vipers were used offensively against the bilateral agreement. Pakis also wont show any real evidence for Flanker extermination which they easily could because they have to stick to the "F-16 were not used in this operation" hence all the glory went on a Chinise-built Junk Fighter 17. Btw, this spontanous hangar celebration of JF-17 pilots you probably have seen looked staged and fake AF to me :roll:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 19:35
by rockstar139
If this is true, millions dollar AIM-120 was put to a greater task, downing a modern Sukhoi.

Patriot wrote:Here's my last post on this topic and a little conspiracy theory/practical reality.

Id rather believe Indians recovered that AMRAAM piece out of their downed Su-30MKI rather than randomly found it in bushes somewhere. The wreckage of Su-30 was quickly surrounded by indian troops and later they burried the crash site to effectively get rid of the evidence.
I wonder also about the scensrio where some indian aircraft was hit by AMRAAM but was able to RTB safely so thats how they get in posesion of that debrie. Both of these posibilities to me are far more likely than random Discovery of a missile part on the dirt.

Pakis know they took down Flanker but want to deny F-16 involvement at all costs. Indisns know they lost a Flanker but wont admit that as this would be too much of a shame to stand. In this curcoimstances any harm that Indians were able to do Pakis was by pushing hard the story of downed F-16 while showing AMRAAM part which in an obvious way undermines Pakis claims that F-16s werent there bacause they were. Now at least Indians exposed Pakis to American anger/sanctions as the Vipers were used offensively against the bilateral agreement. Pakis also wont show any real evidence for Flanker extermination which they easily could because they have to stick to the "F-16 were not used in this operation" hence all the glory went on a Chinise-built Junk Fighter 17. Btw, this spontanous hangar celebration of JF-17 pilots you probably have seen looked staged and fake AF to me :roll:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 01 Mar 2019, 19:56
by Patriot
Surely Su-30 high up in the sky present a much better target than tiny MiG-21 screaming low against the ground. Actually I think one Su-30 could easily carry two MiG-21s, one under each wing as a manned standoff cruise missiles. Ive digressed. :doh:
Additionally the NCTR JEM protocol should tell Pakistani pilot it's a Flanker.

Thanks for attention.


Btw, Look who's here flying in the Su-30 sqn :wink:
https://youtu.be/pxNsYEoOlpI

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 00:34
by awsome
Patriot wrote:So far a total number of 0 conclusive evidence to support Indian version of the story particularly about bringing the F-16 down. They should try a bit harder.


Why? If you look beyond national pride the Indians probably have more to gain by playing the victim. What is important is selling the idea that F-16s were involved.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 01:12
by basher54321
Managed to find the 19 Feb display crash video.

Eyewitness Briefs About The Scenario Of Surya Kiran Hawks Crash In Yelahank



The Sun it seems has an English subtitled video with the captured Wing Commander. (Who has now been released)


Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 01:22
by basher54321

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 01:57
by weasel1962
Post-strike analysis by Michael J. Sheldon for the Digital Forensic Lab

http://alert5.com/2019/03/02/operation- ... a-failure/

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 03:33
by nefory
https://wnobserver.com/asia/india-to-fa ... an-claims/

According to this article, all Pakistani vipers are well and counted for, and LM is to file a law suit against the Indians for falsely claiming downing any F-16.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 04:28
by durahawk
nefory wrote:https://wnobserver.com/asia/india-to-face-another-loss-f-16-manufacturer-to-file-law-suit-against-false-indian-claims/

According to this article, all Pakistani vipers are well and counted for, and LM is to file a law suit against the Indians for falsely claiming downing any F-16.


I find this article highly suspect. If we are talking bottom lines, LM would be highly sensitive to doing anything to jepordize their relationship with the F-16's largest potential export customer.

Any guesses on who that is?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 05:00
by nefory
durahawk wrote:
nefory wrote:https://wnobserver.com/asia/india-to-face-another-loss-f-16-manufacturer-to-file-law-suit-against-false-indian-claims/

According to this article, all Pakistani vipers are well and counted for, and LM is to file a law suit against the Indians for falsely claiming downing any F-16.


I find this article highly suspect. If we are talking bottom lines, LM would be highly sensitive to doing anything to jepordize their relationship with the F-16's largest potential export customer.

Any guesses on who that is?


Agree, legitimacy is in doubt.
On the other hand, with India's purchasing power, how many F-16 could they take in, 200 at most?
Not to mention such a deal, if possible, will take decades to full fill.
Comparing that to the damage done over night by defaming F-16 world wide claiming that they just poked one down with a MIG-21.
I think LM is right to be mad, if they are.
But then again, perhaps LM knows that no one is in fact taking India's claim seriously, so no need to overreact.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 08:49
by zero-one
Please let me know if I'm getting these things correctly

Confirmed
Mig-21 Shot down
Mi-17 down
AMRAAM used

Claims
F-16 shot down
Su-30 shot down
JF-17 used to shoot down the Mig-21 and Su-30

I guess most will never be publicly confirmed or denied. But international movement on sales will be a nice clue. If interest on F-16s suddenly go up, specially by India, then it could mean they were impressed.

If Flanker interest suddenly flames out...then :wink: :wink:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 08:58
by marsavian
That reads exactly like a spoof article ...

The United States enterprise has termed it outrageous and disrespect to the sophistication and repute of this Avionics excellence.

The company also claims that since all F-16s on Pakistani inventory are well counted for hence it is obvious that the story by India is concocted for political gains by incumbent government at the cost of F-16s reputation globally.

The Lockheed Martin further stated that the company reserves the right to claim damages for the likely loss of their highly integrated state of art air lions.


Really ? Can you seriously keep a straight face through all that faux sabre-rattling ? ;)

EDIT: and sure enough LMT denies it ever made such claims. Seems a Pakistani civil servant was taken in by that article too, atmosphere very febrile over there ATM ...

https://timesofindia.com/india/fake-new ... 230167.cms
https://twitter.com/LMIndiaNews/status/ ... 0011798529

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 09:11
by weasel1962

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 09:50
by hythelday
Patriot wrote:Here's my last post on this topic and a little conspiracy theory/practical reality.


There is zero evidence to support this, so please don't spread BS.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 14:02
by basher54321
A highlight from the social media conflict that followed the real one - while certain media seemed to be jumping around like clueless 3 year olds they might have accidentally invited someone on who knew a bit about aircraft. :lmao:

Audio out of sync but the lip reading seems to match.


Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 14:34
by mixelflick
Patriot wrote:Surely Su-30 high up in the sky present a much better target than tiny MiG-21 screaming low against the ground. Actually I think one Su-30 could easily carry two MiG-21s, one under each wing as a manned standoff cruise missiles. Ive digressed. :doh:
Additionally the NCTR JEM protocol should tell Pakistani pilot it's a Flanker.

Thanks for attention.


Btw, Look who's here flying in the Su-30 sqn :wink:
https://youtu.be/pxNsYEoOlpI


Wow.

2 parachutes makes sense now. Plus, no mention of Mig-21's in the fray, at least according to Indian recap below. Just 4 SU-30MKI flying top cover..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 15:00
by basher54321
Taiwanese Air Force possibly deny it was their AMRAAM.

https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3648621

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 15:03
by basher54321
New York Times have posted this Tweet:

NewYorkTimes.JPG

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 15:13
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:
Patriot wrote:Surely Su-30 high up in the sky present a much better target than tiny MiG-21 screaming low against the ground. Actually I think one Su-30 could easily carry two MiG-21s, one under each wing as a manned standoff cruise missiles. Ive digressed. :doh:
Additionally the NCTR JEM protocol should tell Pakistani pilot it's a Flanker.

Thanks for attention.


Btw, Look who's here flying in the Su-30 sqn :wink:
https://youtu.be/pxNsYEoOlpI


Wow.

2 parachutes makes sense now. Plus, no mention of Mig-21's in the fray, at least according to Indian recap below. Just 4 SU-30MKI flying top cover..


What two parachutes?

Flying multiple types is not something special.

Remember when former F-35 pilot was killed in Thunderbirds crash and trolls tried to make an argument that somehow F-35 was involved. Same thing is happening here.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 21:10
by Shimud
If there were 2 ( or 3 parachutes), there is no way to prove 2 (or more) of IAF's birds have eaten dirt.
1 Mig is lying in Pakistan. That's it.

On the other hand, even if India has lost 1 more Sukhoi or MiG, with debris fallen in India, they will never admit it out of embarrassment. Their 300 killed on ground fiasco has dented their integrity.
For Pakistanis, they have done what they were supposed to do and in case its not admitted by Indians, even better as there will be no reason to escalate the tension.

The winner in this episode is Modi as he is using the whole episode to exploit religious and emotional sentiments to gain votes during next elections in India, just 40-50 days left.
The loser is India as a country, with 40 souls lost earlier, which was the reason why they attempted to hit targets in Pakistan, they lost another 6 (or 8) service men, 1 (or 2) aircraft and 1 chopper shot down and a pilot shot down and detained.
Someone very inept and incompetent is at the helm of affairs.

By the way, any concrete news on AMRAAM? (Could it be that its recovered from the purported 2nd aircraft, MiG or Sukhoi, shot down with debris in India?)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 21:23
by marsavian
https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/us-se ... 465681.htm

The US is seeking more information on the potential misuse of American-made F-16 fighter jets by Pakistan against India in violation of the end-user agreement, the State Department has said.

The Indian Air Force on Thursday displayed parts of an AMRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile as evidence to "conclusively" prove that Pakistan deployed US-manufactured F-16 fighter jets during an aerial raid targeting Indian military installations in Kashmir after India's anti-terror operation in Balakot.

Pakistan on Wednesday categorically said that no F-16 fighter jets were used and denied that one of its planes had been downed by the Indian Air Force.

"We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information," a State Department spokesperson told PTI when asked about a report that Pakistan has violated the end-user agreement with the United States in this week's border clash with India.

"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI.


Apparently they can't be used outside their border and are primarily for counter-insurgency.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 21:33
by Shimud
marsavian wrote:https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/us-seeks-information-on-potential-misuse-of-f-16-by-pakistan-2465681.htm

The US is seeking more information on the potential misuse of American-made F-16 fighter jets by Pakistan against India in violation of the end-user agreement, the State Department has said.

The Indian Air Force on Thursday displayed parts of an AMRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile as evidence to "conclusively" prove that Pakistan deployed US-manufactured F-16 fighter jets during an aerial raid targeting Indian military installations in Kashmir after India's anti-terror operation in Balakot.

Pakistan on Wednesday categorically said that no F-16 fighter jets were used and denied that one of its planes had been downed by the Indian Air Force.

"We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information," a State Department spokesperson told PTI when asked about a report that Pakistan has violated the end-user agreement with the United States in this week's border clash with India.

"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI.


Apparently they can't be used outside their border and are primarily for counter-insurgency.


AIM-120C in a BVR AtoA missile. There seems no logic to use them for counter-insurgency operations. Insurgents are not flying fighters, for which you need BVR missiles. Guided AtoG weapons seem logical for such operations.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 21:44
by noth
Shimud wrote:
marsavian wrote:https://www.cnbctv18.com/politics/us-seeks-information-on-potential-misuse-of-f-16-by-pakistan-2465681.htm

The US is seeking more information on the potential misuse of American-made F-16 fighter jets by Pakistan against India in violation of the end-user agreement, the State Department has said.

The Indian Air Force on Thursday displayed parts of an AMRAAM beyond visual range air-to-air missile as evidence to "conclusively" prove that Pakistan deployed US-manufactured F-16 fighter jets during an aerial raid targeting Indian military installations in Kashmir after India's anti-terror operation in Balakot.

Pakistan on Wednesday categorically said that no F-16 fighter jets were used and denied that one of its planes had been downed by the Indian Air Force.

"We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information," a State Department spokesperson told PTI when asked about a report that Pakistan has violated the end-user agreement with the United States in this week's border clash with India.

"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI.


Apparently they can't be used outside their border and are primarily for counter-insurgency.


AIM-120C in a BVR AtoA missile. There seems no logic to use them for counter-insurgency operations. Insurgents are not flying fighters, for which you need BVR missiles. Guided AtoG weapons seem logical for such operations.


Do remember Pakistan's western neighbour is Iran. AMRAAMs are probably allowed in case Iran sends a drone or something worse over.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 21:55
by marsavian
Yes, AMRAAMs and the F-16s are allowed for self-defence but not in offensive actions without permission. Apparently the very latest ones, Block 52s, have a remote disable device. Perhaps they need to be fitted on Turkish F-35s too ! ;). US geopolitics do affect Teen and F-35 sales allowing European/Russian/Chinese aircraft to pick up orders where technically and economically alone they may not win.

https://www.nationalheraldindia.com/int ... leet-by-us

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... son/373558

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 22:19
by basher54321
marsavian wrote:Yes, AMRAAMs and the F-16s are allowed for self-defence but not in offensive actions without permission. Apparently the very latest ones, Block 52s, have a remote disable device. Perhaps they need to be fitted on Turkish F-35s too ! ;). US geopolitics do affect Teen and F-35 sales allowing European/Russian/Chinese aircraft to pick up orders where technically and economically alone they may not win.



The only thing that matters is the specifics of the end user agreement.
One article has:
"Due to non-disclosure agreements in Foreign Military Sales contracts, we cannot discuss the specifics of end user-agreements contained within," Lt Col Kone Faulkner, a Defense Department spokesperson told PTI. "


The next from the Indian side - a Dr Bhagwat

The defence expert says that as part of the deal between Pakistan and the US, Islamabad had agreed that AMRAAM BVR missiles would be used only for counter-terrorism operations, more specifically on the terror camps operating along Pakistan’s border with Afghanistan.

I see - perhaps Terror is defined better in the end user agreement however it does seem a tad strange that AMRAAM could only be used for baseline counter terrorism ops. Could a hostile jet coming into your territory be considered an act of terror?


The last has "According to a report in Times Now, Pakistan’s misadventures across the LoC on Wednesday morning may have serious repercussions as it’s not clear if the Pakistani military got the go-ahead from the US."

So number 3 you can ignore and number 2 also seems unlikely and is also from the Indian side so inclined to dismiss as BS at this moment in time - but feel free to send over the EULA Dr Bhagwat. I hope Pakistan didn't just tick the box and click Okay!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 02 Mar 2019, 22:32
by marsavian
It gets better

https://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/pun ... n-minister

On February 27, India claimed to have shot down an F-16 plane that had entered Indian territory from the Pakistani side. According to arms analysts, the terms of the sale of F-16 jets by the US to Pakistan mandate that they can be used only for counter-terrorism purposes and not against any country.

Mr Hussain did not deny the use of the F-16 aircraft.

“We purchased them from America and didn’t get them in a grant. So we’ll decide where to deploy them. F-16 jets will be used for the purpose for which they are needed. But Insha’Allah, we hope that situation doesn’t arise,” he warned.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 01:21
by weasel1962
Fake news.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 02:47
by vm
My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 03:57
by jedijedi
Update: This first video has been debunked as doctored by the expert in India who debunked Indian media's own theory of F16 being shot down so he is likely trying to put out the truth.

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1101917182286544899

A short video has been posted on youtube which apparently shows a single engine jet chasing a dual engine jet. It could be a F16 chasing a F15 or as the video claims a JF17 chasing a Su30. Pakistan does not have any dual engine jets so it definitely cannot be a Pakistani mock dogfight. The chaser does look like JF17 but it could just be my mind playing with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3puvqPMisZ4

Can experts here review and chime in. There is also another video circulating with wreckage being cleaned up on the Indian side. It is a mangled mess of metal but can anyone spot/identify the bird that crashed from the wreckage. I am attaching it with the post.

Edit: The video might be doctored in some way, or maybe the zoom in is from another source but cleverly shown cropped at the end to give it the appearance of the two desired planes. I will leave it to the experts.

Edit 2: There is a well known Indian news anchor who reported a Su 30 being shot down before even a Pakistani claimed it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2NKrHDCZWQ

This was later retracted. The same Anchor then tried to put the story out that it was a F16 engine that Pakistanis showed, but the analyst sitting there debunked his own compatriot's theory.

https://twitter.com/BhittaniKhannnn/sta ... 5775425536

^^ This last video clip is worth watching for Aviation fans.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 06:07
by noth
vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.


Still no video footage of those strikes, until that surfaces I'm not believing this raid was succesful. Even the India media don't have proof.
vm wrote:2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.

Mirage 2000H-5s aren't from the 1950s.
vm wrote:6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 06:17
by Patriot
I was meant to stay in stealth mode over this topic but hell, the times are exciting, so is the air combat. Cant stand.. :bang:

jedijedi the aircraft you asked about from the attached video is an indian Mi-17 they claimed they lost the very same morning "kashmir dogfight" occured. The oblong piece these soldiers are pulling out using rope is a rear beam of that helicopter. No trace of a Flanker there.

The other "chasing" videos look kind of like CGI to me but Im not insist on that, could be legit although the chased Su-30 doesnt look like one at all. If anything Id say this gotta be two JF-17s. Enemy fighters dont chase each other like that, the chaser should employ its weapons alredy instead doing fotmation flying with its prey. Reduce the time to kill - that's what that business is all about.

What else. The fact that indians were able to find and demonstrate the Aim-120 piece tells me that it has to hit something on their side first. Maybe it hit that Su-30? It would explain how they were able to find a debrie this small so quickly over such a vast theritory - if that debrie got stucked within the wreckake or fell close with a debrie shower it was easy to track down.. so they found it simply by going after the wreckage and stumbling upon it.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 09:03
by vm
The mystery of the 2nd captured pilot as claimed by the Pakistani major general spokesperson in his press conference is the biggest mystery.
He and the rest of his supporters here can't wriggle out of the videotaped live press conference.
Rest of the videos above and claims of other fighters excluding the mig21 are just unverified claims.
And as I said, no mig21s for future interdiction in hostile airspace. Only mirage 2ks and su30s.
Why the mig21 guy went into hostile airspace alone should come out in the next weeks ?
Also tactics wise this could start a new trend of iaf bombing runs in Pakistan after any terrorist attacks in India.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 09:31
by hythelday
vm wrote:The mystery of the 2nd captured pilot as claimed by the Pakistani major general spokesperson in his press conference is the biggest mystery.


Question: are you still trying to maintaon that F-16 was shot down?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 09:33
by Shimud
With an AMRAAM in their hands, Indians have inadvertently accepted another jet down in their territory :roll:

The MiG wrecakge fell in Pakistani territory, the chopper crashed inside Indian territory but the crash site is about 150km away from where the dogfight took place.

The AMRAAM was most likely found embedded in this probable second downed jet.
Pakistanis do claim a Sukhoi and in the beginning, even Indian media also reported a Sukhoi down.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 09:46
by zero-one
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/iaf-mig ... irst-time/

Having secured a highly advantageous position, Wing commander Abhinandan Vartaman of the Indian air force successfully fired his Russian short range Vympel R-73 air to air missile at the F-16, scoring a hit


So now they're really doubling down on killing or at least hitting an F-16.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 10:34
by Shimud
zero-one wrote:https://theaviationgeekclub.com/iaf-mig-21s-vs-paf-f-16s-the-dogfight-details-revealed-for-the-first-time/

Having secured a highly advantageous position, Wing commander Abhinandan Vartaman of the Indian air force successfully fired his Russian short range Vympel R-73 air to air missile at the F-16, scoring a hit


So now they're really doubling down on killing or at least hitting an F-16.


The Telegraph article linked within the piece above says that the F-16 went down in India.
Where is the wreckage?
It isn't something to hide, neither did Pakistanis when they shot down the MiG.

Indians discovered the tiny piece of AMRAAM but still no F-16 pieces to verify their claims of downing an F-16.
(They initially pretended their own shot down MiG as an F-16; see a few pages back on this thread.)
So until and unless, we have an F-16 wreckage discovered and presented to the world, its a figment of ones imagination and a blatant lie.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 10:42
by hythelday
jedijedi wrote:A short video has been posted on youtube which apparently shows a single engine jet chasing a dual engine jet. It could be a F16 chasing a F15 or as the video claims a JF17 chasing a Su30. Pakistan does not have any dual engine jets so it definitely cannot be a Pakistani mock dogfight. The chaser does look like JF17 but it could just be my mind playing with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3puvqPMisZ4


This alternatively could be Myanmar JF-17 chasing Myanmar Su-30. Or Any of the world's F-16s chasing any of the worlds F-15s. Or Nigerian JF-17 chasing Zimbabwean Flanker. Based on the fact they decided to put confirmed Mi-17 crashsite footage as "proof" of downed Su-30, I say this video has zero credibility. Most likely 3 different videos put together.

jedijedi wrote:Can experts here review and chime in. There is also another video circulating with wreckage being cleaned up on the Indian side. It is a mangled mess of metal but can anyone spot/identify the bird that crashed from the wreckage. I am attaching it with the post.


The folks in the video have INSAS rifles, so the only thing that is clear is that it is in India. Or Nepal. The wreck is definitely not a Flanker, and hardly a JF-17/F-16 either.The biggest piece - long tubular thingie they were pulling with a rope looks more like a MiG-21 or maybe a Su-22. Probably just another recycled video from way back.

The Telegraph article is written by a fellow named Rahul Bedi from New Delhi. According to him F-16 crashed in India. I am dying to see F-16 crash site, pretty sure Indian side would have showed it by now, instead of a single AMRAAM piece. Also, if Indian pilot attacked the F-16 from "60 degree angle and 7,000 feet above" and was shot down "moments later" how the hell did he end up in Pakistan, alleged F-16 and an AMRAAM piece in India?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 10:47
by zero-one
Shimud wrote:So until and unless, we have an F-16 wreckage discovered and presented to the world, its a figment of ones imagination and a blatant lie.


Exactly, I have a side by side image of the crashed wreckage that they're claiming to be an F-16 and an actual PW-F100 engine on a USAF F-16. the Size difference is immense.
See here: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=55055&start=120

So far, their strongest claim to the F-16 shot down is the AMRAAM wreckage, when I told one of them that it could have come from a missile that missed, they told me that it was a WVR fight and that AMRAAMs are not intended for WVR.

I said that many of the AMRAAMs kills historically came from WVR shots and it is a very potent WVR weapon albeit more expensive. I was countered by saying Pakistan will not use it in WVR because they are poor.

Personally I am on India's side during this whole situation, I think it was right for them to bomb terrorist camps that were threatening their citizens. But now that they have lost an aircraft to the Pakistani's it seems that they let their nationalistic pride get the best of them. Every scrap of metal on the ground is an F-16 to them now.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 11:41
by vm
noth wrote:
vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.


Still no video footage of those strikes, until that surfaces I'm not believing this raid was succesful. Even the India media don't have proof.
vm wrote:2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.

Mirage 2000H-5s aren't from the 1950s.
vm wrote:6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

You didn't get my point. They might have totally missed the terrorist camps but the action taken is a landmark.
Since the 1971 war, Indian fighter planes have never crossed the line of control with Pakistan, in spite of attacks on our parliament, 150 civilians killed in Mumbai, kargil war, train blasts in Mumbai multiple times in which hundreds were killed and all claimed by pakistan based groups. And of course the active terror in kashmir by pakistan since late 80s.
It was a mental block that any action would result in a full blown war and a nuclear exchange.
For comparison everyone knows that Pakistan supports the taliban in Afghanistan but American jets never bombed their hideouts in mainland Pakistan. Only drone attacks in bordering areas which were normally compromised by the Pakistanis.
Now we see that the Pakistanis start smoking the peace pipe nearly immediately and even return the pilot in 2 days.
They even claim that their jets deliberately missed our military installations to keep the peace. No talk of Tactical nukes, etc.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 13:19
by Shimud
vm wrote:
noth wrote:
vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.


Still no video footage of those strikes, until that surfaces I'm not believing this raid was succesful. Even the India media don't have proof.
vm wrote:2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.

Mirage 2000H-5s aren't from the 1950s.
vm wrote:6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

You didn't get my point. They might have totally missed the terrorist camps but the action taken is a landmark.
Since the 1971 war, Indian fighter planes have never crossed the line of control with Pakistan, in spite of attacks on our parliament, 150 civilians killed in Mumbai, kargil war, train blasts in Mumbai multiple times in which hundreds were killed and all claimed by pakistan based groups. And of course the active terror in kashmir by pakistan since late 80s.
It was a mental block that any action would result in a full blown war and a nuclear exchange.
For comparison everyone knows that Pakistan supports the taliban in Afghanistan but American jets never bombed their hideouts in mainland Pakistan. Only drone attacks in bordering areas which were normally compromised by the Pakistanis.
Now we see that the Pakistanis start smoking the peace pipe nearly immediately and even return the pilot in 2 days.
They even claim that their jets deliberately missed our military installations to keep the peace. No talk of Tactical nukes, etc.


Mate, you are digressing from the real topic. Its not a Pakistan or India bashing thread hence stick to the topic.
Thanks.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 13:23
by Shimud
zero-one wrote:
Shimud wrote: ...I think it was right for them to bomb terrorist camps that were threatening their citizens...


It is setting a bad precedent. Tomorrow, any country can bomb their opponent, claiming that they have attacked terrorists.
Remember that one man terrorist could be another man's freedom fighter.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 14:23
by basher54321
jedijedi wrote:A short video has been posted on youtube which apparently shows a single engine jet chasing a dual engine jet. It could be a F16 chasing a F15 or as the video claims a JF17 chasing a Su30. Pakistan does not have any dual engine jets so it definitely cannot be a Pakistani mock dogfight. The chaser does look like JF17 but it could just be my mind playing with me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3puvqPMisZ4

Edit 2: There is a well known Indian news anchor who reported a Su 30 being shot down before even a Pakistani claimed it.



All I can tell you from running that and higher res versions from Twitter frame by frame and zoomed up is that it is impossible to tell the types outside of single engine, single tail. One version went on for a bit longer and had some kind of explosion - again impossible to tell what that was from the other side of a hedge. Anyone who thinks otherwise is literally deluding themselves.

The camera (probably a phone) has real problems with moving images - CGI would seem unlikely.


From looking at many conflicts from yesteryear even before it was easy to alter videos and photos - they are often useless because they are really not showing you enough information. The people who are bringing these up really have little understanding of what they are looking at - that often includes mainstream media.


That second crash with the dead pilot I am pretty sure is the Mi-17 crash that has killed 2 pilots. There are several videos of this that have been going round for the past few days.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 14:26
by madrat
Turkey uncorked this genie when they crossed into both Syria and Iraq to go after 'Kurdish' terrorists.

In India's case they might have validity whereas the Turkish government has a long history of attacks on Kurds for less noble causes.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 14:51
by rockstar139
Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089

Thanks

vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 15:07
by Shimud
Folks, we can write hundreds of lines for who is responsible (or not) for what and what is/might/could be valid (or not) but based upon independent impartial analysts, no one died on the ground, no buildings damaged, an F-16 down (sorry nothing concrete yet, but LM can verify it easily as they have got personnel attached with their birds in Pakistan) and the whole story is now a made up episode.

Its worth discussing it further if there is solid proof that the "real" objective has been achieved i.e. Indians managed to hit the target (and an F-16 down, if they have a wreckage to prove it). Otherwise, its nothing more then constructing a narrative on a hollow foundation, which will eventually collapse, badly damaging the integrity and repute of its architects.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 15:08
by basher54321
jedijedi wrote:Edit 2: There is a well known Indian news anchor who reported a Su 30 being shot down before even a Pakistani claimed it.



He has to get his information from somewhere and so do the Pakistani and Indian governments - though I would hope India today is a bit more professional than that Republic rag that doesn't seem to understand (or care?) about perhaps verifying information before putting it out.

The information in the first few days sounds like it was skewed but this is what you would expect. Basically even India and Pakistan military / governments would likely have been subject to getting misinformation themselves at least until things calmed down.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 15:15
by basher54321
rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089


This video has also done the rounds over the past few days with some labelling it as the Wife of one of the Mi-17 Helicopter pilots.

Also found a press article:

Vijeta Mandavgane, wife of Squadron Leader Ninad Mandavgane, the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilot who was killed in the Mi-17 crash in central Kashmir’s Budgam district on Wednesday, has called for calm between India and Pakistan.

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... f-5605818/

Is there anything contrary to that?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 15:55
by basher54321
Possibly 6 IAF and one civilian actually died in the Mi-17 crash (RIP):

Squadron Leader Ninad Mandavgane was among the six Air Force officers killed after a Russian made Mi-17 crashed in an open field near Garend Kalaan village in Budgam on Wednesday. A civilian too was killed.




"Social Media Warriors, Go To The Front": Wife Of Pilot Killed In Crash

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/vijeta- ... -t-2001949

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 17:31
by knuckles
This is how a crashed Viper would look like.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 19:32
by basher54321
Yugoslav MiG-21 wreck




Wreck of MiG-21 Croatian.JPG

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 03 Mar 2019, 21:01
by basher54321
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-india-kashmir-usa-pakistan/us-wants-to-know-if-pakistan-used-us-built-f-16-jets-to-down-indian-warplane-idUKKCN1QK0CV

ISLAMABAD/SRINAGAR, India (Reuters) - The United States said on Sunday it was trying to find out if Pakistan used U.S.-built F-16 jets to down an Indian warplane, potentially in violation of U.S. agreements, as the stand-off between the nuclear-armed Asian neighbours appeared to be easing.

Pakistan and India both carried out aerial bombing missions this week, including a clash on Wednesday that saw an Indian pilot shot down over the disputed region of Kashmir in an incident that alarmed global powers and sparked fears of a war.

A Pakistan military spokesman on Wednesday denied Indian claims that Pakistan used F-16 jets.

Pakistan returned the captured Indian pilot on Friday in a high-profile handover Islamabad touted as a “peace gesture”, which appeared to significantly dial down tensions, but both sides remain on high alert.

At the Line of Control (LoC), the de facto border between the two countries in the disputed Kashmir region, there was relative calm in the past 24 hours, both armies said on Sunday. But Indian security forces said they were carrying out major anti-militancy operations on their side on Kashmir and had shot dead two militants.

The U.S. Embassy in Islamabad said on Sunday it was looking into reports that Pakistan used F-16 jets to shoot down the Indian pilot, a potential violation of Washington’s military sale agreements that limit how Pakistan can use the planes.

“We are aware of these reports and are seeking more information,” a U.S. Embassy spokesperson said. “We take all allegations of misuse of defence articles very seriously.”

While Pakistan has denied using F-16 jets during a dogfight that downed an Indian Mig-21 warplane over Kashmir on Wednesday, it has not specified which planes it used, though it assembles Chinese-designed JF-17 fighter jets on its soil.

Pakistan has a long history of buying U.S. military hardware, especially in the years after 2001 when Islamabad was seen as a key partner in the U.S.-led War on Terror.

Pakistan bought several batches of F-16 planes, built by Lockheed Martin Corp, from Washington before relations soured and the United States cut off subsidised sales in 2016.

It is not clear what exactly these so-called “end-user agreements” restrict Pakistan from doing. “The U.S. Government does not comment on or confirm pending investigations of this nature,” the U.S. Embassy added.

On Thursday Indian officials displayed to reporters parts of what they called an air-to-air missile that can only be fired from F-16 jets, alleging they were used to bomb its side of the disputed Kashmir border on Wednesday.

A Pakistan military spokesman told reporters on Wednesday that Pakistani jets “locked” on Indian targets to demonstrate Pakistan’s capacity to strike back at India, but then chose to fire in an empty field where there would be no casualties.

Pakistan said its mission on Wednesday was in retaliation for India violating its airspace and sovereignty a day earlier, when Indian jets bombed a forest area near the northern city of Balakot.

India said it struck at militant training camps, but Islamabad denied any such camps existed, as did some villagers in the area when Reuters visited.

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Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 02:57
by popcorn
How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 04:06
by weasel1962
popcorn wrote:How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?


When 1.3 billion Indians say it is. Bye Buy US F-21.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 04:34
by vm
rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089

Thanks

vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Are you deliberately posting fake news here ? She is clearly the wife of one of the occupants of the crashed helicopter. Kindly keep the fake stuff in your favourite Pakistani defense site. Let's not ruin this forum.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 05:44
by Corsair1963
So, we have no credible information to confirm that a Pakistani F-16 was lost???

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 07:52
by Shimud
popcorn wrote:How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?


Exactly. Actually they have played it smart. Lured them in.

weasel1962 wrote:
popcorn wrote:How is Pakistan using a F-16 to defend against an attacking IAF jet a violation of a US agreement?


When 1.3 billion Indians say it is. Bye Buy US F-21.


As the whole episode and consequent events have unfolded, only one thing is certain. Indians have shot themselves in their feet.

vm wrote:
rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089

Thanks

vm wrote:My summary -
1.India made the bombing raids to send a message rather than cause damage. Must remember that balakot is is not in pak kashmir but in kpk, a Pakistani state. That's why non military target terminology used in official statement.
2. One confirmed mig21 loss of iaf. The info I had on first day was it was from a Sam missile.
3. Mystery of 2 pilots captured as per official spokesperson of Pakistan ?
4. India didn't have a plan B after the punitive bombing on terrorist hideouts. What after escalation? After all this was a action in mainland Pakistan not kashmir. Indira Gandhi planned for 5 months and executed surrender of East Pakistan in just 13 days in 1971. No half hearted bombing runs. This was more like American action in Afghanistan and Iraq. No end plan.
5. Targeting of terror camps in Pakistan territory should become the norm now rather than exception. Only use front line planes rather than planes from the 50s.
6. Lot of fake news being propagated by pakistan including on this site. India needs to improve its message transmission. Instead of terrorist camps in Pakistan the issue has become diverted to war between nuclear neighbours, peace, Air to air missile, etc.

Are you deliberately posting fake news here ? She is clearly the wife of one of the occupants of the crashed helicopter. Kindly keep the fake stuff in your favourite Pakistani defense site. Let's not ruin this forum.


Media vm, its media. You have already written in one of your posts that the local media is rubbish.
The greatest tool of modern warfare is media. Upon someone's insistence (from South Asia), I happened to listen to the local Indian English news channels and was aghast. I reckon that the war hysteria has been developed by media. The sane minds in both countries, including former diplomats and armed services officers, are talking sense.

Corsair1963 wrote:So, we have no credible information to confirm that a Pakistani F-16 was lost???


No. They have apparently discovered an AMRAAM but still trying to find out the F-16, which was attached to this AIM-120C (I can't help but to write it like this.)

I feel that the current government in India has exploited the situation for their electoral gains. With just 40-50 days remaing in general elections, this episode is basically the cover page of current ruling party's election manifesto. Go there and see how they are using it as a tool to exploit the religious sentiments, creating social divide and instigating masses against Pakistan.
Pardon. I am digressing from the original topic...

OK, back to Mirages' hits or F-16 down or another IAF bird in pieces. Any conclusive proof? (As of now, its really a mirage.)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 08:08
by marsavian
Modi is also using this to defend and promote his Rafale deal which many politicians over there thought he forced through improperly.

https://amp.ft.com/content/58825ac8-3d9 ... 761f19a974

Narendra Modi, India’s prime minister, this weekend suggested that India’s aerial skirmishes with Pakistan could have had a different outcome had the country had more modern fighter jets, whose acquisition was stalled for years under the country’s previous Congress government.

Mr Modi finally signed an €8bn deal for the acquisition of 36 Rafale fighter jets in 2016, but it has been since engulfed in controversy amid allegations of crony capitalism. “The country has felt the shortage of Rafale jets,” said Mr Modi, “India is asking in one voice what could have happened if we had Rafale. First selfish policies and then politics over the Rafale deal have harmed the nation.”

India signalled its intent to modernise its air force well over a decade ago, when it launched a hotly contested international tender process to acquire 126 new fighter jets to replace its ageing fleet of MiGs, which had begun to crash with alarmingly regularity during practice missions. In 2011, India announced it had selected Dassault’s Rafale fighter jet as its preferred plane, but the negotiations over the precise details of the deal got bogged down and were never completed.

Four years ago, Mr Modi shocked the aerospace industry when he unexpectedly declared New Delhi was ditching the ongoing talks to acquire the 126 planes from Dassault, and would instead buy just 36 Rafale fighter jets directly from the French government.

That deal has come under scrutiny with the Congress party accusing Mr Modi of making the change in order to arrange a sweetheart deal for businessman Anil Ambani, who is supposed to be Dassault’s offset partner for the purchase.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 12:33
by vm
Reports of new air attacks by India on terrorists in bhawalpur Pakistan. Pakistan sources claiming the attacks. Seems all bets are off and hunting season has started on pakistani terrorists.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 13:13
by Shimud
vm wrote:Reports of new air attacks by India on terrorists in bhawalpur Pakistan. Pakistan sources claiming the attacks. Seems all bets are off and hunting season has started on pakistani terrorists.


Source?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 15:44
by mixelflick
Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders

WHAT IS CLAIMED

* India claims it shot down an F-16. Curiously though, no F-16 wreckage or pilot have appeared
* India claims F-16's were used in an attack. If so, this would violate US imposition of no F-16's to be used offensively

WHAT IS CURIOUS

* India reported that among other jets, SU-30MKI's were scrambled to intercept Pakistani jets
* Multiple reports (by Indian media, no less) speak to an SU-30MKI being downed (later retracted)
* The AMRAAM serial number displayed by the Indians goes back to Taiwan
* The expression on the Indian AF officers displaying the missile aren't exactly jovial.
* There are reports of 3 parachutes being seen during one of these air battles. Presumably 1 was the Mig-21 pilot. Who were the other 2, and what aircraft(s) did those chutes come from?
* Indian PM issues a statement that if they had Rafale in the fight, things would have been different.

MY TAKE

* I think it's only a matter of time we get confirmation an SU-30MKI was lost. India has done its best to cover it up, and if it was an F-16 that bagged it, Pakistan has an interest in making sure its F-16's weren't used in an "offensive" manner.
* Personally, I think the F-16's were used as top cover for the Indian strike package.
* LM can certainly validate if an F-16 was lost, as they have all the serial numbers associated with them in PAK service

If all of that is correct, the Indian air force has some soul searching to do. PAK's air force is much smaller, and over the last few years India has worked hard to operate a professional, capable force structure. To lose at least one Mig-21 and quite possibly their crown jewel in the SU-30MKI, that has to sting.

I guess we'll know for sure when India orders the F-16IN, and not more up-rated MKI's... :)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 16:04
by aten
There are reports from Indian side that F16 locked on SU30 and fired AIM120c.

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 2306183169

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 7684692992

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 6386728960


So now we have

- Confirmed lock on SU30
- AIM120c fired on SU30
- more than 1 (up to 3) parachutes sighted
- Indian army displaying AIM120C casing

With all this information how likely it is that a SU30 went down on Kashmir and Indian are too embarrassed to admit it?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 16:38
by hythelday
aten wrote:There are reports from Indian side that F16 locked on SU30 and fired AIM120c.

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 2306183169

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 7684692992

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 6386728960


So now we have

- Confirmed lock on SU30
- AIM120c fired on SU30
- more than 1 (up to 3) parachutes sighted
- Indian army displaying AIM120C casing

With all this information how likely it is that a SU30 went down on Kashmir and Indian are too embarrassed to admit it?


No, we have a tweet from India claiming F-16 shot down and tracks of military aircraft "based on OSINT". I'd very much like to know what kind of OSINT techniques he used to mark jet fighters' tracks with timestamps over a large territory of two countries over than "my imagination and RUMINT" technique.

Also how is "lock on Su-30" "confirmed" by any means other than "OSINT" by one guy from India. He also marked F-16 crash on his map, so I would like to see OSINT evidence of that crash site, as well as "more than once parachute" everyone is talking about.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 18:36
by basher54321
mixelflick wrote:* India claims F-16's were used in an attack. If so, this would violate US imposition of no F-16's to be used offensively

* The AMRAAM serial number displayed by the Indians goes back to Taiwan


No - that contract number looks to have had multiple subcontracts under it to various countries - Taiwan also seem to be denying it any way (both posted earlier)

Only someone party to the actual conditions imposed on Pakistan can know the reality so wait and see.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 23:01
by viper21
Ok folks, very interesting stuff coming out from the Pakistani air force now.

Remember their claim that they have shot down one SU-30MKI as well, that fell in Indian Kashmir?

They've released some details to the media about WHO shot it down. Wing Commander Nauman Ali.. guess what, he has a profile here too:

http://www.f-16.net/pilots-profile2652.html

Although it's not fully updated, he had 1,000 viper flying hours in 2010. Till last year he had at least 3,000 hours on the viper. Can be seen wearing the 3,000 flying hours patch in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5TYTBc-5GaE (look at 0:06, guy on the right).

He had also participated in Red Flag 2010:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arqnBN3s-aM (from 0:51)

The guy who took down Flanker.

Of course, right now there's no 100% confirmation as the wreckage is hidden. But inside PAF, they know a flanker is down. Likely an AMRAAM kill.... SU-30 lights up like a bright spot on any radar. Huge RCS.

No Pakistani F-16 was lost.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 04 Mar 2019, 23:38
by icemaverick
mixelflick wrote:Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders

WHAT IS CLAIMED

* India claims it shot down an F-16. Curiously though, no F-16 wreckage or pilot have appeared
* India claims F-16's were used in an attack. If so, this would violate US imposition of no F-16's to be used offensively

WHAT IS CURIOUS

* India reported that among other jets, SU-30MKI's were scrambled to intercept Pakistani jets
* Multiple reports (by Indian media, no less) speak to an SU-30MKI being downed (later retracted)
* The AMRAAM serial number displayed by the Indians goes back to Taiwan
* The expression on the Indian AF officers displaying the missile aren't exactly jovial.
* There are reports of 3 parachutes being seen during one of these air battles. Presumably 1 was the Mig-21 pilot. Who were the other 2, and what aircraft(s) did those chutes come from?
* Indian PM issues a statement that if they had Rafale in the fight, things would have been different.

MY TAKE

* I think it's only a matter of time we get confirmation an SU-30MKI was lost. India has done its best to cover it up, and if it was an F-16 that bagged it, Pakistan has an interest in making sure its F-16's weren't used in an "offensive" manner.
* Personally, I think the F-16's were used as top cover for the Indian strike package.
* LM can certainly validate if an F-16 was lost, as they have all the serial numbers associated with them in PAK service

If all of that is correct, the Indian air force has some soul searching to do. PAK's air force is much smaller, and over the last few years India has worked hard to operate a professional, capable force structure. To lose at least one Mig-21 and quite possibly their crown jewel in the SU-30MKI, that has to sting.

I guess we'll know for sure when India orders the F-16IN, and not more up-rated MKI's... :)


All we know is that a MiG-21 was lost. Whether an F-16 or Su-30MKI was also lost is speculation on our part. I don't think it should come as a big surprise that the MiG-21 is inferior to the F-16 and also the JF-17. No matter how many upgrades the MiG-21 has received over the years, it's still a third generation aircraft built with 1950s and early 60s tech.

The MiG-21 is in fact due to retire starting this year. The Indian Government really needs to pull the trigger on buying new aircraft, though. 36 Rafales isn't going to cut it.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 01:35
by madrat
I'm disappointed the Tejas isn't being rushed to support Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI in the area. It's the perfect place to get it's operational feet wet so to speak. It is also the type of front for which it was intended. Surely the Tejas should be better fit for opposing the JF-17 than the MiG-21Bison.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 02:39
by Corsair1963
aten wrote:There are reports from Indian side that F16 locked on SU30 and fired AIM120c.

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 2306183169

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 7684692992

https://twitter.com/reachanshul/status/ ... 6386728960


So now we have

- Confirmed lock on SU30
- AIM120c fired on SU30
- more than 1 (up to 3) parachutes sighted
- Indian army displaying AIM120C casing

With all this information how likely it is that a SU30 went down on Kashmir and Indian are too embarrassed to admit it?



From your own sources it sounds like Pakistani F-16's fired Amraams at the Indian Su-30's. Yet, I didn't see anything to support any were lost???

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 03:23
by armedupdate
Why does everything think the F-16 is better than the Su-30MKI? Yes the newer F-16s probably are but the Pakistani ones? They are still with pulse doppler radar vs PESA.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 03:52
by vm
mixelflick wrote:Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders

WHAT IS CLAIMED

* India claims it shot down an F-16. Curiously though, no F-16 wreckage or pilot have appeared
* India claims F-16's were used in an attack. If so, this would violate US imposition of no F-16's to be used offensively

WHAT IS CURIOUS

* India reported that among other jets, SU-30MKI's were scrambled to intercept Pakistani jets
* Multiple reports (by Indian media, no less) speak to an SU-30MKI being downed (later retracted)
* The AMRAAM serial number displayed by the Indians goes back to Taiwan
* The expression on the Indian AF officers displaying the missile aren't exactly jovial.
* There are reports of 3 parachutes being seen during one of these air battles. Presumably 1 was the Mig-21 pilot. Who were the other 2, and what aircraft(s) did those chutes come from?
* Indian PM issues a statement that if they had Rafale in the fight, things would have been different.

MY TAKE

* I think it's only a matter of time we get confirmation an SU-30MKI was lost. India has done its best to cover it up, and if it was an F-16 that bagged it, Pakistan has an interest in making sure its F-16's weren't used in an "offensive" manner.
* Personally, I think the F-16's were used as top cover for the Indian strike package.
* LM can certainly validate if an F-16 was lost, as they have all the serial numbers associated with them in PAK service

If all of that is correct, the Indian air force has some soul searching to do. PAK's air force is much smaller, and over the last few years India has worked hard to operate a professional, capable force structure. To lose at least one Mig-21 and quite possibly their crown jewel in the SU-30MKI, that has to sting.

I guess we'll know for sure when India orders the F-16IN, and not more up-rated MKI's... :)

I like your reasoning.
All claims by pakistan and media without proof somehow prove a su30 being shot down but all claims by India that a f16 was downed require proof in the form of wreckage.?
I can guess where you are from.
Remember that Pakistan did not accept that it lost upwards of 500 (4000 as per Pakistani PM) military personnel in the kargil conflict which was not accepted for years.
Also for 2 days after surrendering in 1971, Pakistan newspapers were still carrying news of a impending Indian defeat !
Pakistan media is tightly controlled and speaking against Defence forces is a criminal offence.
The only verified news is of the 1 mig21 lost. Rest all is in the air.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 03:54
by citanon
mixelflick wrote:Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders



According to anonymous Western defense officials contacted by the NY Times, neither the JF-17 or the F-16 shot down the Mig-21. Instead, they lead the Mig-21 into a corridor with a heavy SAM presence where it was shot down by a SAM.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 03:58
by Corsair1963
citanon wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders



According to anonymous Western defense officials contacted by the NY Times, neither the JF-17 or the F-16 shot down the Mig-21. Instead, they lead the Mig-21 into a corridor with a heavy SAM presence where it was shot down by a SAM.



Yet, the Indian Mig-21 pilot said he shot down a Pakistani F-16 and was in turn was shot down by another one.....

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 05:46
by rockstar139
My bad.

According to news she is the wife of the one who was in Mi-17.

basher54321 wrote:
rockstar139 wrote:Second pilot was from India, either in another Mig or in SU30 with Abhi.

https://twitter.com/ShamaJunejo/status/ ... 9422041089


This video has also done the rounds over the past few days with some labelling it as the Wife of one of the Mi-17 Helicopter pilots.

Also found a press article:

Vijeta Mandavgane, wife of Squadron Leader Ninad Mandavgane, the Indian Air Force (IAF) pilot who was killed in the Mi-17 crash in central Kashmir’s Budgam district on Wednesday, has called for calm between India and Pakistan.

https://indianexpress.com/article/citie ... f-5605818/

Is there anything contrary to that?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 05:48
by rockstar139
Source?

vm wrote:Reports of new air attacks by India on terrorists in bhawalpur Pakistan. Pakistan sources claiming the attacks. Seems all bets are off and hunting season has started on pakistani terrorists.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 06:29
by firebase99
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/p ... 2019-03-04

"The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) released a statement shortly, denying the role of IAF in today's incident.

The official statement said the blast was a result of an explosion caused by Pakistani aircraft dropping extra fuel tanks in the area. "No cross border violation took place," the statement added.

Before the official statement was released, many Twitter users from Pakistan fuelled speculation that IAF had a role in today's blast near Fort Abbas, situated 100 kilometers from Jaish-e-Mohammed headquarters in Bahawalpur."

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 07:04
by vm
Don't modern fighter jets have missile lock warning systems? If their is a heat or radar missile locking onto you, won't the pilot get a audible or visual alarm ?
Or is it different in the case of SAMs ?
Russian origin jets seem to frequently get surprised as in this case or the Russian plane brought down by turkey.
Only ppl with actual knowledge kindly reply.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 08:58
by citanon
Corsair1963 wrote:Yet, the Indian Mig-21 pilot said he shot down a Pakistani F-16 and was in turn was shot down by another one.....


The Mig pilot's story was told by Indian media before he got back to India. This makes me doubtful that it's really his original story. Has he himself even said anything on record?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 09:28
by weasel1962
One part of the F-16 story appears to be de-bunked.

https://www.newslaundry.com/2019/03/05/ ... ont-add-up

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 09:45
by nefory
vm wrote:Don't modern fighter jets have missile lock warning systems? If their is a heat or radar missile locking onto you, won't the pilot get a audible or visual alarm ?
Or is it different in the case of SAMs ?
Russian origin jets seem to frequently get surprised as in this case or the Russian plane brought down by turkey.
Only ppl with actual knowledge kindly reply.


In a way yes. Modern jets are usually equipped with RWS and MAWS.
Yet, having something doesn't mean that something always works as it should.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 10:41
by weasel1962
Quote from union compliance audit 2012, pg vi.

Even after an expenditure of `521 crore and delay of over seven years, IAF failed to derive intended benefits of integrating a state of the art RWR system on different aircraft desired by them. Out of the total 336 systems, only 73 systems have been integrated. Even in the systems integrated, the performance was largely unsatisfactory. The systems are being integrated as an interim measure till development of an advanced system.


Tejas report is more specific on the type of issues that can occur.

RWR fitted on LCA Mk-I is having issues such as degradation of direction finding accuracy, reset in air, etc

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 10:46
by pagan
icemaverick wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders

WHAT IS CLAIMED

* India claims it shot down an F-16. Curiously though, no F-16 wreckage or pilot have appeared
* India claims F-16's were used in an attack. If so, this would violate US imposition of no F-16's to be used offensively

WHAT IS CURIOUS

* India reported that among other jets, SU-30MKI's were scrambled to intercept Pakistani jets
* Multiple reports (by Indian media, no less) speak to an SU-30MKI being downed (later retracted)
* The AMRAAM serial number displayed by the Indians goes back to Taiwan
* The expression on the Indian AF officers displaying the missile aren't exactly jovial.
* There are reports of 3 parachutes being seen during one of these air battles. Presumably 1 was the Mig-21 pilot. Who were the other 2, and what aircraft(s) did those chutes come from?
* Indian PM issues a statement that if they had Rafale in the fight, things would have been different.

MY TAKE

* I think it's only a matter of time we get confirmation an SU-30MKI was lost. India has done its best to cover it up, and if it was an F-16 that bagged it, Pakistan has an interest in making sure its F-16's weren't used in an "offensive" manner.
* Personally, I think the F-16's were used as top cover for the Indian strike package.
* LM can certainly validate if an F-16 was lost, as they have all the serial numbers associated with them in PAK service

If all of that is correct, the Indian air force has some soul searching to do. PAK's air force is much smaller, and over the last few years India has worked hard to operate a professional, capable force structure. To lose at least one Mig-21 and quite possibly their crown jewel in the SU-30MKI, that has to sting.

I guess we'll know for sure when India orders the F-16IN, and not more up-rated MKI's... :)


All we know is that a MiG-21 was lost. Whether an F-16 or Su-30MKI was also lost is speculation on our part. I don't think it should come as a big surprise that the MiG-21 is inferior to the F-16 and also the JF-17. No matter how many upgrades the MiG-21 has received over the years, it's still a third generation aircraft built with 1950s and early 60s tech.

The MiG-21 is in fact due to retire starting this year. The Indian Government really needs to pull the trigger on buying new aircraft, though. 36 Rafales isn't going to cut it.



You missed out on a few important things.

1. ISPR claimed two planes down as did BBC and other reports based on Pak spokesperson.
2. ISPR claimed 2 and some say 3 pilots in custody/hospital.
3. Locals confirmed seeing two chutes; one said three chutes.
4. Locals who captured the Mig21 pilot explicitly talking about the 2nd pilot they want to capture or go after.
5. Videos showing a dramatic fireball in the sky followed by ejections and a plane plummeting down in a fire ball.
6. The same video showing 2 distinct blasts separated 1-2 seconds illustrating two ejection seats firing; this was followed by locals commenting clearly that they are seeing two chutes.
7. The Mig21 hit the ground almost intact. Even its flimsy nose cone is preserved, as is most of the tail end and engine areas; very little signs of a fireball or a plane on fire falling 1000s of ft. while on fire. The debris field was small, and it almost looked like a plane which had crashlanded than an aircraft which had been in an explosion.
8. Mig21 from the Srinagr base were the closest to the place where the air-battle happened.
9. A Mig21 with an R73 can take an F-16 in a tail-chase especially one configured for an LBG attack.
10. There are reports that the Mig21 pilot was told of danger and disengage by the battle controllers but was too close to a kill to give up on a once in a lifetime situation.
11. Reports of SAM or AAA getting the Mig21 are consistent with the initial reports from India.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOdrITApv0&fbclid= Please listen at 10 & 12 second to hear two booms. Locals confirm saying two parachutes. Very likely a two seater ejecting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FQiJYM5lBo Eye Witness claiming three chutes and knocking off a Sikh (a bearded one I guess)

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1965783893550569 (you have to be logged in to FB). The crowd is clearly saying in the end to go after the 2nd pilot. Including the guy in the brown jacket who was smacking the downed Mig21 pilot.

12. The AAMRAM debris in India were discovered way inside and its explosion hurt one local man.
https://greaterjammu.com/police-party-a ... -in-jammu/
13. The AMRAAM was fired against the IAF planes shadowing one segment of the PAF swarm across the border. PAF did spring an element of surprise by firing across the border and broke up the IAF CAP.
14. It is highly unlikely that a Su-30 went down in the same sector as the Mig21; they were coming from different bases and covering different parts. And the only other options is a twin seater F-16. (twin seater M2K are very few).
15. AAMRAM was not sold to Taiwan;
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3648621
16. An AAMRAM missing at the extreme end of its range against a highly maneuverable and aware target is not surprising.

About 20 years ago, Pakistani Army refused to accept that the 100s of war dead at Kargil were Pakistani soldiers. The precedence of refusing their dead is deep and well established with the Pakistani Armed Forces.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 10:50
by pagan
The battle was recorded in multiple AWACs planes on both sides. You dont need to talk to the pilot.

There are eye-witnesses for the retreating plane being hit from the Indian side also.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 10:50
by marsavian
madrat wrote:I'm disappointed the Tejas isn't being rushed to support Mirage 2000 and Su-30MKI in the area. It's the perfect place to get it's operational feet wet so to speak. It is also the type of front for which it was intended. Surely the Tejas should be better fit for opposing the JF-17 than the MiG-21Bison.


Only 12 to 16 have been delivered so far.

http://pib.nic.in/PressReleseDetail.aspx?PRID=1563888

At the time of placement of IOC order in 2006, it was expected that Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), who is the Programme Management Agency will obtain IOC in 2008 after which delivery was planned till December 2011. However, IOC has been achieved by ADA in December 2013 that too only for 16 fighter version IOC aircraft, after which only, HAL could take up production and first IOC fighter aircraft was delivered in 2016-17. Till date, out of total 16 IOC fighter aircraft, 12 fighters have been delivered to IAF. HAL plans to deliver the balance 4 IOC fighter aircrafts by March, 2019.

The production of 8 trainer aircraft (4 each in IOC &FOC contracts) would be taken up only after design clearance from ADA.In order to fast track the delivery of LCATejas, the following steps have been taken:-

• For ramping up production capacity from existing 8 aircraft to 16 aircraft per annum, Government of India (GoI) has sanctioned Rs.1381.04 Crore in March, 2017.
...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 13:39
by madrat
I wonder if pagan can misspell any more in his bullet points. The logic already jumps A-B-Z rather than being a cohesive and linear A-B-C. And anyone using an English-language browser would have had most all of these spellings corrected by default. Just saying.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 14:37
by mixelflick
vm wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Provided all air to air action is over, the Indians are undoubtedly concerned about "what happened".

WHAT IS KNOWN

* India lost a Mig-21. To either an F-16 or J/F-17
* India recovered an AMRAAM (or parts of one) in its territory
* There have been no credible reports of Pakistani aircraft lost
* India lost a helicopter which may or may not have been downed (other reports say it was a mechanical failure)
* Pakistan retaliated, bombing inside India's borders

WHAT IS CLAIMED

* India claims it shot down an F-16. Curiously though, no F-16 wreckage or pilot have appeared
* India claims F-16's were used in an attack. If so, this would violate US imposition of no F-16's to be used offensively

WHAT IS CURIOUS

* India reported that among other jets, SU-30MKI's were scrambled to intercept Pakistani jets
* Multiple reports (by Indian media, no less) speak to an SU-30MKI being downed (later retracted)
* The AMRAAM serial number displayed by the Indians goes back to Taiwan
* The expression on the Indian AF officers displaying the missile aren't exactly jovial.
* There are reports of 3 parachutes being seen during one of these air battles. Presumably 1 was the Mig-21 pilot. Who were the other 2, and what aircraft(s) did those chutes come from?
* Indian PM issues a statement that if they had Rafale in the fight, things would have been different.

MY TAKE

* I think it's only a matter of time we get confirmation an SU-30MKI was lost. India has done its best to cover it up, and if it was an F-16 that bagged it, Pakistan has an interest in making sure its F-16's weren't used in an "offensive" manner.
* Personally, I think the F-16's were used as top cover for the Indian strike package.
* LM can certainly validate if an F-16 was lost, as they have all the serial numbers associated with them in PAK service

If all of that is correct, the Indian air force has some soul searching to do. PAK's air force is much smaller, and over the last few years India has worked hard to operate a professional, capable force structure. To lose at least one Mig-21 and quite possibly their crown jewel in the SU-30MKI, that has to sting.

I guess we'll know for sure when India orders the F-16IN, and not more up-rated MKI's... :)

I like your reasoning.
All claims by pakistan and media without proof somehow prove a su30 being shot down but all claims by India that a f16 was downed require proof in the form of wreckage.?
I can guess where you are from.
Remember that Pakistan did not accept that it lost upwards of 500 (4000 as per Pakistani PM) military personnel in the kargil conflict which was not accepted for years.
Also for 2 days after surrendering in 1971, Pakistan newspapers were still carrying news of a impending Indian defeat !
Pakistan media is tightly controlled and speaking against Defence forces is a criminal offence.
The only verified news is of the 1 mig21 lost. Rest all is in the air.


You have video evidence of any IAF air to air missile down in Pakistan? Or multiple news reports of the PAK losing an F-16?
Or multiple eyewitness reports of 2 (possibly 3) parachutes coming down in an air battle where the F-16 was in the mix? Because that's what we have speaking to the SU-30 shootdown.

And now we're hearing India is reporting that an F-16 locked onto an SU-30, and fired an AMRAAM. Their story about not losing an SU-30MKI is starting to fall apart..

That's why I put my conclusion in the "my take" section. You don't like my take? Fine. But I've got a LOT more evidence of an SU-30 shootdown (later retracted by Indian media) than you do, saying otherwise.

I'm from parts unknown BTW..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 16:07
by icemaverick
The same evidence you are using to support your theory of an Su-30MKI shoot down could also be used to support an F-16 being shot down. Some Indian media reports continue to state that an F-16 was shot down. If the Indians would cover up the loss of a Flanker, why wouldn’t the Pakistanis cover up the loss of a Viper....especially when one considers that Pakistan wasn’t supposed to use the F-16 against India?

If multiple parachutes were seen in the area, it could be used to support the theory that a Pakistani F-16 was downed. Those eyewitnesses that saw multiple parachutes were on the Pakistani side of the border. They had reason to believe that all the planes came down in the immediate vicinity. Therefore, the planes would have crashed in Pakistan. Pakistan even initially reported two Indian jets were down but later retracted that....could it be that the second jet was their own?

If indeed a second or third Indian aircraft was lost, surely those pilots would have been killed or captured. The Pakistanis certainly don’t have any other IAF pilots in their custody. If IAF pilots were killed, there’s no way that story would stay buried this long. Family members would have raised the alarm by now and there’s no way such a story could be suppressed when India is 2 months from an election.

I’m not saying an F-16 went down. I think it’s even less likely that an Su-30 went down. Any claims about other aircraft being lost are either just propaganda or speculation at this point.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 17:20
by aten
India officially confirming that multiple AMARAAM were fired on SU30s formation. They also claim that every single AMARAAM missed and all Su-30 are accounted for.




Image

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 17:30
by hythelday
aten wrote:India officially confirming that multiple AMARAAM were fired on SU30s formation.


First of all, judging by the link the image is from Twitter. What is the original source (looks like paper/magazine)?

Second - if you are willing to believe that Flankers were engaged according to this source, you should also admit that a PAF F16 also went down.

So far we have one confirmed MiG-21 kill and a video of something crashing from the sky while on fire, which may or may not be related to Bison.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 17:36
by weasel1962
A pity this thread has been turned into a fake news and propaganda thread. Claim = confirm. It's a bit disrespectful that these posters (bunch of newbie astroturfing recruits) think the f-16.net folks are LIVs. Won't even bother to respond.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 17:55
by aten
Image was posted by Shiv Aroor verified Twitter account not some Rando. Shiv is a pretty well known Indian Journalist and not a Pakistani fan by any stretch.

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/11 ... 99362?s=21

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 18:11
by hythelday
aten wrote:Image was posted by Shiv Aroor verified Twitter account not some Rando. Shiv is a pretty well known Indian Journalist and not a Pakistani fan by any stretch.

https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/11 ... 99362?s=21


Great, and where did he take that picture from i.e. who wrote the text in the photo and based on what.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 18:24
by aten
Hythelday I am not sure what you are implying here. It seems that you think Shiv is lying so let me ask you what would you consider an authentic statement? Here is an article from a well known Indian newspaper reporting the same thing, is that good enough for you or you doubt it too?

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/p ... 2019-03-05

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 18:52
by hythelday
aten wrote:Hythelday I am not sure what you are implying here. It seems that you think Shiv is lying so let me ask you what would you consider an authentic statement? Here is an article from a well known Indian newspaper reporting the same thing, is that good enough for you or you doubt it too?

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/p ... 2019-03-05


I am not implying anything, I am asking for the original sources of any given claims, eihter about F-16s, Flankers, Mirages or whatever.

All I asked for was where the original text from picture in the twitter of mr Shiv Aroor came. The text in the newspaper web edition you linked now is identical to the tweet, so it appears that the text in the picture is from the print edition of the article written by mr Abhishek Bhalla, who refers to those claims as being "said by Indian Air Force"

As you an see, the chain of reporting goes IAF => newspaper journalist => picture in someone's twitter => your original post without a single source at first. Info is most believable at it's prime source, not fourth iteration.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 19:10
by basher54321
These guys got all the advertising they needed for their film it seems.


Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 19:14
by basher54321
weasel1962 wrote:One part of the F-16 story appears to be de-bunked.



Ah yes not the only article to give the name of that guy standing in front of a Flanker. :D

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 19:52
by warbird86
Indian Air Force releases a statements saying it's Su-30 MKIs neutralized atleast one AIM-120 AMRAAM fired at them on 27 Feb 2019.

D06jGAHXQAAbqYY.jpg


https://mobile.twitter.com/reachanshul/ ... 2306183169
https://mobile.twitter.com/reachanshul/ ... 7684692992

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 20:09
by basher54321
warbird86 wrote:Indian Air Force releases a statements saying it's Su-30 MKIs neutralized atleast one AIM-120 AMRAAM fired at them on 27 Feb 2019.


Can you at least attempt to read at least one page back or think before you post - thank you.


This is not a forum for posting fluff media pieces especially when both sides are still on a propaganda footing.

If you are going to post anything - provide the original official quote from a named IAF official from an official credible source.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 22:30
by botsing
weasel1962 wrote:A pity this thread has been turned into a fake news and propaganda thread. Claim = confirm. It's a bit disrespectful that these posters (bunch of newbie astroturfing recruits) think the f-16.net folks are LIVs. Won't even bother to respond.

^ This.

basher54321 wrote:This is not a forum for posting fluff media pieces especially when both sides are still on a propaganda footing.

^ And this.


The troll farm shooting range is wide open. :roll:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 05 Mar 2019, 23:27
by citanon
basher54321 wrote:These guys got all the advertising they needed for their film it seems.



Wow, that's really well timed.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 03:20
by citanon
Satellite photos show the supposed target of the Mirage strike is still standing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKCN1QN00V

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 03:32
by Corsair1963
Honestly, this isn't about picking sides. Most here don't have a dog in the hunt. Yet, we need credible sources before we will believe the unless claims coming from both sides....


First, Pakistan had credible pictures of the downed Mig-21 and it's pilot. Which, they later returned to India. So, you can't get anymore concrete than that.


Second, while Indian sources have made countless claims of a PAF F-16 being lost. Few consider their sources as credible. Which, is not to say that a Pakistani F-16 didn't go down. Just it hasn't been substantiated to the satisfaction of the majority....


This shouldn't "offend" Indians. As such verifications are hard to come by in the fog of war.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 04:37
by weasel1962
Not just relying on the earlier newslaundry piece, Asia Times did a separate check on the Air Marshal's son F-16 story per below.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... stan-f-16/

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 05:06
by knuckles
weasel1962 wrote:Not just relying on the earlier newslaundry piece, Asia Times did a separate check on the Air Marshal's son F-16 story per below.

https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... stan-f-16/

That is correct. That air marshal was my Dad's IP on Vipers during B-course and I know both sons.

Cheers !!!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 05:08
by warbird86
botsing wrote:
weasel1962 wrote:A pity this thread has been turned into a fake news and propaganda thread. Claim = confirm. It's a bit disrespectful that these posters (bunch of newbie astroturfing recruits) think the f-16.net folks are LIVs. Won't even bother to respond.

^ This.

basher54321 wrote:This is not a forum for posting fluff media pieces especially when both sides are still on a propaganda footing.

^ And this.
It was an official statement by IAF spokesperson

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... h-e/377280


The troll farm shooting range is wide open. :roll:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 05:40
by citanon
Was this the same IAF spokes person who said they killed 300 JEM days earlier at the training camp / madrassa that's completely unscathed? :roll:

Sorry but enough stories coming out of the the Indian side, official source or not, have been proven to be BS that the rest of the claims aren't smelling too fresh either.

At least the Pakistanis can point to a real wreckage and a real pilot.

As for Indian claims of the heroic actions of the pilot (made before he even got back to India), as one Chinese analyst said on China state TV, the details of the pilot's courageous story were "a bit too detailed". :wink:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 05:55
by loke
Summary of the situation from a less biased source:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/ ... a-pakistan

At this stage, both sides have an interest in keeping the narrative malleable, said Vipin Narang, associate professor of political science at Massachusetts Institute of Technology. “The advantage of the fog of war, especially in the immediate aftermath of something like this, is that … you can actually sustain contradictory narratives,” he said.

And that gives both countries room to claim victory and refrain from further strikes. “This kind of ambiguity can be de-escalatory for the moment,” Narang said. “We can litigate the facts once things settle down.”


So we probably still have to wait a while before we can learn what actually happened.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 06:36
by edpop

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 07:17
by weasel1962
The David Axe piece is just a regurgitation of propaganda. A one-sided article that lacked thought at that but I’m guessing the intent is to generate hits.

A basic simple analysis could have at least included:
(a) Factoring Indian claims of operational secrecy to the extent that even the defence minister was claimed to be unaware of the strike operation
(b) That meant squadron deployments was not made i.e. squadrons themselves may not have had much notice period
(c) Existing squadrons e.g. Mig-21s therefore remained in place
(d) Existing Mig-21 are placed near the border because of their short range. Hence they are likely the 1st to reach the combat zone.
(e) Squadron redeployment could have raised Pakistani alert
(f) The Indian air force could not have known where the Pakistani reaction would take place, if it takes place, until it happened.
(g) Hence the Mig-21s reacted in the way they were trained to react.

That would have been a far more analytical explanation for why IAF Mig-21s were involved.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:00
by citanon
David Axe is a prolific blogger but not much of a journalist. This is the same guy who regurgitated endless amounts of brain-dead criticism against the F-35 from the basement dwelling masses. I don't expect much from him in the way of critical analysis.

And that ridiculous story that had every aircraft type stationed across India reacting to a quick cross border dash from the PAF..... :roll:

Still even amongst all this BS the Tejas gets no love. :(

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:04
by pagan
Image

This is how a building looks like after penetration by the Spice weapon. The hole there is very easily covered in a few days.

Despite the bluster the Pak authorities did not allow people inside the complex; something they could easily have done if they had nothing to hide.


Another factor to keep in mind is that the sector in which the PAF planes fired their AMRAAMs was an active civilian plane corridor. Air traffic had not been shut down.

They were hoping to ambush the IAF CAP across the border and fired their weapons into active civilian lanes.

It is one thing to spring an element of surprise; it is another to risk so much collateral damage by breaking all ROEs.

And there are so many eye witness videos of multiple pilots in Pakistani Kashmir that it takes a certain disconnect from reality to say they were all wrong, as was the DG ISPR and other reports of an injured pilot in the hospital, or even Imran Khan in the Pakistani parliament.

Getting an R-73 in a tail of a fleeing F-16 is nothing outstanding for the Mig21. It can outrace most aircraft

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:05
by Corsair1963
David Axe has no or at least very little expertise in the subject matter........... :?




https://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/aut ... /david-axe

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:10
by citanon
pagan wrote:Despite the bluster the Pak authorities did not allow people inside the complex; something they could easily have done if they had nothing to hide.....


Your continued mental contortions to uphold the Indian side of this story makes clear that Yoga mastery is achieved in the mind as well as the body. :doh:

Note from the Reuters story I linked:

The images produced by Planet Labs Inc, a San Francisco-based private satellite operator, show at least six buildings on the madrasa site on March 4, six days after the airstrike.

Until now, no high-resolution satellite images were publicly available. But the images from Planet Labs, which show details as small as 72 cm (28 inches), offer a clearer look at the structures the Indian government said it attacked.

The image is virtually unchanged from an April 2018 satellite photo of the facility. There are no discernible holes in the roofs of buildings, no signs of scorching, blown-out walls, displaced trees around the madrasa or other signs of an aerial attack.


A more confidence inspiring answer from the Indian side might be: we screwed up and got our butts kicked. Here are the steps we are taking to do better.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 08:17
by weasel1962
I won't bother to respond. The newbies still think f-16.net folks don't know how to read ATS routes and tell whether the LoC region is an air traffic corridor or not....

I find it funny that a wing commander can shoot down a "fleeing" fighter and yet get shot down. Must be the new rearward firing missiles that firefox back in the 80s used to claim exists....

I wouldn't be surprised if we start seeing the fresh claims of the latest pakistani secret weapon targeted at India...
Image

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 12:31
by warbird86
IAF confirms that the wreckage of AIM-120C5 found in Reasi district was the one that was neutralized by EL-8222 Jammers onboard a Sukhoi 30 MKI.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 13:20
by Shimud
warbird86 wrote:IAF confirms that the wreckage of AIM-120C5 found in Reasi district was the one that was neutralized by EL-8222 Jammers onboard a Sukhoi 30 MKI.


Are you writing on behalf of IAF?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 16:46
by mixelflick
Well, I guess we'll learn in due time. I find this late to the game "all AMRAAM's missed, all spoofed by SU-30MKI etc" narrative disingenuous though. Why not mention that shortly after it happened vs now, many days later?

If all your SU-30's landed safely that day, wouldn't it be obvious in relative short order?

The only way this mess gets clarified is if LM accounts for every F-16 serial number in use by PAK. I don't know if we have that same luxury with Indian SU-30MKI's. We may have to just end up taking their word for it..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 20:53
by warbird86
mixelflick wrote:Well, I guess we'll learn in due time. I find this late to the game "all AMRAAM's missed, all spoofed by SU-30MKI etc" narrative disingenuous though. Why not mention that shortly after it happened vs now, many days later?

If all your SU-30's landed safely that day, wouldn't it be obvious in relative short order?

The only way this mess gets clarified is if LM accounts for every F-16 serial number in use by PAK. I don't know if we have that same luxury with Indian SU-30MKI's. We may have to just end up taking their word for it..

IAF mentioned this after several days because PAF too made it's false claim of shooting down Su-30 after several days

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 21:30
by Shimud
warbird86 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, I guess we'll learn in due time. I find this late to the game "all AMRAAM's missed, all spoofed by SU-30MKI etc" narrative disingenuous though. Why not mention that shortly after it happened vs now, many days later?

If all your SU-30's landed safely that day, wouldn't it be obvious in relative short order?

The only way this mess gets clarified is if LM accounts for every F-16 serial number in use by PAK. I don't know if we have that same luxury with Indian SU-30MKI's. We may have to just end up taking their word for it..

IAF mentioned this after several days because PAF too made it's false claim of shooting down Su-30 after several days


I guess PAF had claimed 2 jets. When did they explicitly Su-30?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 22:12
by viper21
armedupdate wrote:Why does everything think the F-16 is better than the Su-30MKI? Yes the newer F-16s probably are but the Pakistani ones? They are still with pulse doppler radar vs PESA.


APG 68v9.

Plus, AWACS cover.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 22:25
by viper21
So, things obviously are not 100% confirmed.

But this is what's released by the PAF to the media, and before that, what in-service personnel told some relatives, on the day of the air combat. One is a definite kill of Mig21.

Guess who's the other guy? It's a Viper pilot that took down an IAF Flanker. Obviously, AMRAAM. Wing Commander Nauman Ali. Here's his F-16.net profile:

http://www.f-16.net/pilots-profile2652.html

At that time he had 1,000 flying hours, here's his video from Red Flag 2010:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arqnBN3s-aM (from 0:51)

Now he has 3,000 flying hours on the viper.


There is still fog of war, but after some time, I'm positive that things would be cleared and more details would be released on this SU-30MKI Kill.

PAF F-16 isn't lost, if it is, it will be known soon as PAF can't hide it from LM.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 22:48
by aten
So we have bunch of new information since yesterday from the Indian side resulting in more questions:

1. Indians are claiming that 4 to 5 amraams [1] were fired by F16 on SU30 and Mig21 from a distance of 40 -50 KM. If we take this at face value it seems that a) F16 were probably providing top cover and firing from across the LOC b) all the amraams missed their targets!. I believe AIM120c5 has a hit rate of 60% so if 5 amraams are fired they would, on average, hit 3 targets. Do we know what measure Migs and Su30 took that resulted in all amraams missing their targets?

2. Curiously Indians found the amraam within a day of the engagement. If you recall Spain lost Amraam over Estonia that were not found by Nato after extensive search. Indians are claiming that Kashmir is much more densely populated than Europe and "impact of the aerial projectile was so great that splinters were scattered 50-100 metres around a crater" [2] in an urban area. AFAIK no picture of this impact crater has been posted anywhere. It also raises the question what happened to remaining 3 to 4 AMRAAMS fired over Kashmir? Why are they not found?

3. ndians are also claiming that Mig21 that was shot down was the only aircraft from their side that fired anything at all[3]. I am really curios why other Indian aircraft didnt engage ? One theory that I have heard is that RoE Indian aircraft were operating under prohibited them from firing at Pakistani aircrafts but that doesnt make any sense to me as Pakistani F16s had already engaged Indian aircrafts and more over WingCmdr Abhi did pursue a F16, firing r73 and crossing LOC. Why didnt he follow RoE? SU30 was arguably the most powerful aircraft in this whole engagement and it seems like it did not participate at all after neutralizing the AMRAAMs.

4. Dog fight detail provided by Indian newspapers [4] sort of contradict F16 firing AMARAAM from behind the LOC. It is implying that F16 did cross the LoC and were chased down by Mig21. Maybe there were two formations of F16s, one providing top cover and other crossing the LOC?

5. Pakistani ISPR is still claiming that two Indian jets were shot and second pilot was killed in action. ISPR spokesman was on a local television program making this claims. I can provide links to that if someone is interested but its not in English.

[1] https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms
[2] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst
[3] https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-06
[4] https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... IrOBI.html

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 06 Mar 2019, 23:12
by basher54321
viper21 wrote:So, things obviously are not 100% confirmed.

Guess who's the other guy? It's a Viper pilot that took down an IAF Flanker. Obviously, AMRAAM. Wing Commander Nauman Ali. Here's his F-16.net profile:



Some things may never be known even decades later.

Both names have been flying around for some days now - however today several news articles have reported that Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi has named both pilots in address to their Parliament. From an official viewpoint they are sticking with 1 x Kill and 1 x Claim.


This is from ET which is possibly Indian https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/pakistan-fm-shah-mahmood-qureshi-maintains-that-paf-shot-down-2-iaf-fighter-jets/articleshow/68290622.cms

Pakistan Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Wednesday maintained that the Pakistan Air Force jets shot down two Indian fighter planes and identified the Pakistani pilot in Parliament.

Lauding the PAF pilots in the National Assembly, Qureshi said, "Pakistan Air Force shot down two Indian aircraft violating the Pakistani airspace. One Indian jet was shot down by Squadron Leader Hassan Siddiqui while other was downed by Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan."

Qureshi officially identified Wing Commander Nauman Ali Khan as the Pakistan Air Force pilot who shot down the second Indian fighter jet in the dogfight last week, Dawn news reported.




The actual speech is here (luckily mostly in English) around 1.31


Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 02:33
by madrat
Using an R-73 against an F-16 with a defensive package backed by two decades of reverse engineering of the R-73... sounds highly conjective.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 03:27
by Corsair1963
Well, we saw the wreckage and pilot of the Mig-21. So, confirmed one kill.........Yet, what about the F-16 and Su-30MKI???

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 06:20
by pagan
Image
Green shows where AAMRAM parts were recovered.
Blue shows major active civilian airports
Red is an area where the F-16s were supposed to have been holding during the PAF swarm attempt.

The AAMRAMs were fired at pretty much at the upper end of their range; so not surprising that the IAF planes were able to evade.

India had not closed its airspace when the PAF swarm attempt happened.

Note that Pakistani airspace has been virtually shut down with all the traffic hugging the Western border for quite sometime after the PAF attack. I will leave it to your imagination to wonder why.

Image
This image is a grab in of a video shared that day showing an explosion in the air
Image
This the normal zoom from the same video where you can clearly see remnant explosion similar to what had been seen in the previous videos (white). The explosion in 1st pic is outlined in green, and the one outlined in red is similar to what was seen here.
https://youtu.be/CAOdrITApv0?t=25

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 07:25
by warbird86
viper21 wrote:So, things obviously are not 100% confirmed.

But this is what's released by the PAF to the media, and before that, what in-service personnel told some relatives, on the day of the air combat. One is a definite kill of Mig21.

Guess who's the other guy? It's a Viper pilot that took down an IAF Flanker. Obviously, AMRAAM. Wing Commander Nauman Ali. Here's his F-16.net profile:

f-16 [dot] net/pilots-profile2652.html

At that time he had 1,000 flying hours, here's his video from Red Flag 2010:

youtube [dot] com/watch?v=arqnBN3s-aM (from 0:51)

Now he has 3,000 flying hours on the viper.


There is still fog of war, but after some time, I'm positive that things would be cleared and more details would be released on this SU-30MKI Kill.

PAF F-16 isn't lost, if it is, it will be known soon as PAF can't hide it from LM.


There's no reason for PAF to lie IMO, and they think they definitely have a flanker down! :D

There will be no details as there were no Su-30 kill.
I personally know the OC of 221 sq and all of their jets made it back safely.
They are elated now as they managed to jam multiple AIM-120C5 with EL 8222WB

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 07:30
by boilermaker
basher54321 wrote:This posted earlier by Hythelday is probably the best shot of Pakistani soldiers standing over the front crushed end of a MiG-21 Bison. Took me a while at first to recognise that was a nose cone.

MiG-21bison down in Pakistan.jpg

Looks like a fake photoshop flattened pic. Also the mig shade does not match the bucket shade in the back looking like a winter sun set lighting from the left.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 07:50
by zero-one
viper21 wrote:
armedupdate wrote:Why does everything think the F-16 is better than the Su-30MKI? Yes the newer F-16s probably are but the Pakistani ones? They are still with pulse doppler radar vs PESA.


APG 68v9.

Plus, AWACS cover.


I'm reminded of Col. Fornloff's speech where he said that the Su-30MKI is already a little bit better than "our 4th gens" and this is why we need to invest on 5th gens.

We can argue that maybe he meant it as an overall package and not necessarily in air to air. But what if he was in fact referring to air to air. What exactly did he mean by "a little bit better" than our 4th gens.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 07:56
by boilermaker
zero-one wrote:Look at the difference in engine sizes. that PW-F100 is gigantic by comparison.

Seems like a JF-17. Fuselage square extention to tail.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 08:00
by weasel1962
zero-one wrote:I'm reminded of Col. Fornloff's speech where he said that the Su-30MKI is already a little bit better than "our 4th gens" and this is why we need to invest on 5th gens.

We can argue that maybe he meant it as an overall package and not necessarily in air to air. But what if he was in fact referring to air to air. What exactly did he mean by "a little bit better" than our 4th gens.


Can't assume that all F-16s are automatically upgraded to the latest variant. In reality many especially those procured in earlier years aren't e.g some don't even have an APG-68v9.

P.s. IAF mig-21s carry EL-8222s as well...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 10:11
by Shimud
weasel1962 wrote:
zero-one wrote:I'm reminded of Col. Fornloff's speech where he said that the Su-30MKI is already a little bit better than "our 4th gens" and this is why we need to invest on 5th gens.

We can argue that maybe he meant it as an overall package and not necessarily in air to air. But what if he was in fact referring to air to air. What exactly did he mean by "a little bit better" than our 4th gens.


Can't assume that all F-16s are automatically upgraded to the latest variant. In reality many especially those procured in earlier years aren't e.g some don't even have an APG-68v9.

P.s. IAF mig-21s carry EL-8222s as well...


All PAF F-16s, bought during 80s and 90s, have been MLUed. The ADF variants they bought from JoAF have not been updated yet.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 10:14
by Shimud
warbird86 wrote:
viper21 wrote:So, things obviously are not 100% confirmed.

But this is what's released by the PAF to the media, and before that, what in-service personnel told some relatives, on the day of the air combat. One is a definite kill of Mig21.

Guess who's the other guy? It's a Viper pilot that took down an IAF Flanker. Obviously, AMRAAM. Wing Commander Nauman Ali. Here's his F-16.net profile:

f-16 [dot] net/pilots-profile2652.html

At that time he had 1,000 flying hours, here's his video from Red Flag 2010:

youtube [dot] com/watch?v=arqnBN3s-aM (from 0:51)

Now he has 3,000 flying hours on the viper.


There is still fog of war, but after some time, I'm positive that things would be cleared and more details would be released on this SU-30MKI Kill.

PAF F-16 isn't lost, if it is, it will be known soon as PAF can't hide it from LM.


There's no reason for PAF to lie IMO, and they think they definitely have a flanker down! :D

There will be no details as there were no Su-30 kill.
I personally know the OC of 221 sq and all of their jets made it back safely.
They are elated now as they managed to jam multiple AIM-120C5 with EL 8222WB


Which means AMRAAMs' home-on-jam feature failed!
Interesting.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 10:19
by Shimud
boilermaker wrote:
zero-one wrote:Look at the difference in engine sizes. that PW-F100 is gigantic by comparison.

Seems like a JF-17. Fuselage square extention to tail.


Its improving every passing day. Initially it was an F-16. Now a JF-17.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 13:17
by basher54321
boilermaker wrote:Looks like a fake photoshop flattened pic. Also the mig shade does not match the bucket shade in the back looking like a winter sun set lighting from the left.


No pretty certain it is not image edited - it is also not the only photo of this wreck and they would have had to edit all the Videos that show this as well.

If you think about this - India officially admitted losing a MiG-21Bison so Pakistan didn't need to spend any effort at all trying to fake photos etc.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 13:18
by basher54321
boilermaker wrote:Seems like a JF-17. Fuselage square extention to tail.


Go back to here viewtopic.php?f=37&t=55055&start=30 and read through the entire thread so you can see all the images etc - it is 100% MiG-21 wreckage guaranteed.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 13:27
by basher54321
Corsair1963 wrote:
Well, we saw the wreckage and pilot of the Mig-21. So, confirmed one kill.........Yet, what about the F-16 and Su-30MKI???


Not seen anything else of any substance yet outside of that Indian officials are sticking to 1-1 and Pakistan officials are sticking to 2-0.

An Mi-17 crashed on the same day was some distance away - but again probably unrelated.

Oh and a piece of AIM-120 was found.

Separate all the chaff and that is about the only summary thus far.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 14:10
by Shimud
basher54321 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
Well, we saw the wreckage and pilot of the Mig-21. So, confirmed one kill.........Yet, what about the F-16 and Su-30MKI???


Not seen anything else of any substance yet outside of that Indian officials are sticking to 1-1 and Pakistan officials are sticking to 2-0.

An Mi-17 crashed on the same day was some distance away - but again probably unrelated.

Oh and a piece of AIM-120 was found.

Separate all the chaff and that is about the only summary thus far.


:thumb: with this summary, you just did a service to the humanity.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 14:38
by tphuang
This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

They had a mig-21 shot down.

They only got one shot off on R-73. The downed pilots claimed this manage to bring down F-16. Funny, since there is no wreckage. And I'm personally quite dubious of Mig-21's situation awareness when it's going down in flames.

Their amazing Su-30 apparently never locked onto any PAF aircraft to even launch weapons.

They got locked on multiple times by PAF F-16s. Long enough to be fired at.

They managed to evade some AMRAAMs fired at the edge of their range (rather than like within 20 miles which would have much better chance of success)

What's there to be proud of from IAF or Su-30 point of view? The flankers couldn't lock onto any F-16s. They defeated AMRAAMs at a range that they should be able to get away with. Those shots were more like hail marys than anything else.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 16:03
by press-control-w
https://www.businessinsider.com/india-m ... ely-2019-3

https://theprint.in/defence/iafs-balako ... es/198325/

Apparently India's plan was to drop bombs from India into Pakistan, but strong winds drifted the plane across the border and caused the bombs to drift too and hit a jungle?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 16:54
by citanon
tphuang wrote:This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

They had a mig-21 shot down.

They only got one shot off on R-73. The downed pilots claimed this manage to bring down F-16. Funny, since there is no wreckage. And I'm personally quite dubious of Mig-21's situation awareness when it's going down in flames.

Their amazing Su-30 apparently never locked onto any PAF aircraft to even launch weapons.

They got locked on multiple times by PAF F-16s. Long enough to be fired at.

They managed to evade some AMRAAMs fired at the edge of their range (rather than like within 20 miles which would have much better chance of success)

What's there to be proud of from IAF or Su-30 point of view? The flankers couldn't lock onto any F-16s. They defeated AMRAAMs at a range that they should be able to get away with. Those shots were more like hail marys than anything else.


Were Su-30s even in the area? Plenty of claims to that effect but I don't think we really know which planes were even there.

Also, I don't think the downed pilot claimed anything. Indian media made all sorts of claims for him before he even got back. Suspect part of his debriefing will be to "get the story straight". If he doesn't sign on to this we probably won't see a direct interview with him.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 18:13
by Shimud
press-control-w wrote:https://www.businessinsider.com/india-mocked-pakistan-over-airstrike-but-it-likely-missed-completely-2019-3

https://theprint.in/defence/iafs-balako ... es/198325/

Apparently India's plan was to drop bombs from India into Pakistan, but strong winds drifted the plane across the border and caused the bombs to drift too and hit a jungle?


Reminds me of Lt Col Slade and his famous comment: "This is such a crock of sh*t".

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 19:55
by mair
citanon wrote:
tphuang wrote:This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

They had a mig-21 shot down.

They only got one shot off on R-73. The downed pilots claimed this manage to bring down F-16. Funny, since there is no wreckage. And I'm personally quite dubious of Mig-21's situation awareness when it's going down in flames.

Their amazing Su-30 apparently never locked onto any PAF aircraft to even launch weapons.

They got locked on multiple times by PAF F-16s. Long enough to be fired at.

They managed to evade some AMRAAMs fired at the edge of their range (rather than like within 20 miles which would have much better chance of success)

What's there to be proud of from IAF or Su-30 point of view? The flankers couldn't lock onto any F-16s. They defeated AMRAAMs at a range that they should be able to get away with. Those shots were more like hail marys than anything else.


Were Su-30s even in the area? Plenty of claims to that effect but I don't think we really know which planes were even there.

Also, I don't think the downed pilot claimed anything. Indian media made all sorts of claims for him before he even got back. Suspect part of his debriefing will be to "get the story straight". If he doesn't sign on to this we probably won't see a direct interview with him.


Indian officials have categorically stated that Su-30s, Mirage 2000s and Mig 21s were used during the course of operations on the 27th of Feb 2019. https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/theprin ... 01726/amp/

What strikes me as particularly curious about all this isn’t the Pakistani or Indian version of events but the fact that that mi-17 chopper simply happened to have a technical fault on the same day and within the same time frame as this aerial engagement. 100 kms (or 54 NM) isn’t that great a distance for a fighter jet. My guess is that it inadvertently took Pakistani or Indian fire. Or something else ....

Now I’m not normally one for conspiracy theories but this has all the recipes for one.The Indian side has said that it was a ‘technical fault’ within a matter of hours, but their officials have also stated(rightly) that it’s too early to speculate on the exact causes of said crash until the investigation is completed. https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/m.econo ... 279700.cms
But if you deem it ‘too early to comment’ than why have you asserted that the cause of the crash was a technicla fault at all? As opposed to pilot error, possible act of terror etc.

Something doesn’t smell right. And then Pakistan claims that they shot down an Su-30 mki as well at the same time.

Is it possible that while the media focused on the mig 21 and mi 17 wreckage someplace else was hastily cleared? Could it be true or not? Ultimately the truth is known to the other aircraft pilots that flew that day, as well as the radar controllers on both sides. Pakistan is eager to de escalate and wants talks, so it would make sense that they would withhold this information even if they had made the Su-30 kill to avoid antagonising Indian public opinion further, but why would India withhold said information? Surely data from the ground controller and other fighters flying that day would be more conclusive than a burned out missile to prove that they downed an f-16?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 20:44
by aten
mair wrote:
citanon wrote:
tphuang wrote:This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

Now I’m not normally one for conspiracy theories but this has all the recipes for one.The Indian side has said that it was a ‘technical fault’ within a matter of hours, but their officials have also stated(rightly) that it’s too early to speculate on the exact causes of said crash until the investigation is completed. https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/m.econo ... 279700.cms
But if you deem it ‘too early to comment’ than why have you asserted that the cause of the crash was a technicla fault at all? As opposed to pilot error, possible act of terror etc.

Something doesn’t smell right. And then Pakistan claims that they shot down an Su-30 mki as well at the same time.

Is it possible that while the media focused on the mig 21 and mi 17 wreckage someplace else was hastily cleared? Could it be true or not? Ultimately the truth is known to the other aircraft pilots that flew that day, as well as the radar controllers on both sides. Pakistan is eager to de escalate and wants talks, so it would make sense that they would withhold this information even if they had made the Su-30 kill to avoid antagonising Indian public opinion further, but why would India withhold said information? Surely data from the ground controller and other fighters flying that day would be more conclusive than a burned out missile to prove that they downed an f-16?



Just to add to what you stated, what I also find interesting is the fact that Indians are claiming that 4 to 5 AIM120 were fired over Kashmir that day (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms). The fact that they discovered one AIM120 the next day is interesting enough as Spain is probably still search for theirs over Estonia, but what happened to remaining 3 to 4 AMRAAMs? Why are they not found? Indians friends are saying that Kashmir is a lot more densely populated than Estonia and the AIM120 they found hit the ground injuring someone and thats how it was found(https://t.co/xAFul4jyky) However no image of impact crater mentioned in the article has been posted anywhere AFAIK. I find it strange that they found one AMRAAM so quickly and others are not found at all, not sure if they are even looking for them.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 20:59
by aten
A few other points that stood to me are the claim that F16s were firing their AIM120 40 -50 KM away which seems like they were providing top cover without crossing LOC. The article also mentions that both Mig21 and SU30 were targeted by the AIM120 and both avoided getting hit which is pretty fascinating. I wonder what counter measured they used as AIM120c5 has a hit rate of 60% (i think) . I also wonder why SU30 did not fire back when they were engaged by the F16? According to this article (https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2019-03-06) Abhi Mig 21 was the sole fighter from Indian side that fired anything at all which is also a little strange. Why did Mig21 decide to engage while SU30, arguable the most advance fighter on both side, did not engage at all. I also wonder whether the F16 Abhi claimed to have shot was from a different formation than the F16 that were firing AIM120 from 40 miles away.

There are too many pieces still missing in this puzzle and hopefully things will become more clear once fog of war is lifted.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 21:14
by mair
aten wrote:[]


Just to add to what you stated, what I also find interesting is the fact that Indians are claiming that 4 to 5 AIM120 were fired over Kashmir that day (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms). The fact that they discovered one AIM120 the next day is interesting enough as Spain is probably still search for theirs over Estonia, but what happened to remaining 3 to 4 AMRAAMs? Why are they not found? Indians friends are saying that Kashmir is a lot more densely populated than Estonia and the AIM120 they found hit the ground injuring someone and thats how it was found(https://t.co/xAFul4jyky) However no image of impact crater mentioned in the article has been posted anywhere AFAIK. I find it strange that they found one AMRAAM so quickly and others are not found at all, not sure if they are even looking for them.


That AMRAAM very probably seems to have been extracted from the wreckage, since finding the scraps of a high speed missile in the vast Kashmiri mountains is no mean feat. What’s more, this scrap was present in Delhi within 24 hours in time for the press conference by the Indian military top brass. Only question for me is whether said wreckage was an inadvertently hit mi 17 or a deliberately hit Su-30/some other IAF jet.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 21:58
by botsing
Currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

On a positive note; it makes it rather easy to track the propaganda trolls. :twisted:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 22:46
by hythelday
botsing wrote:Currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

On a positive note; it makes it rather easy to track the propaganda trolls. :twisted:


I enjoyed the fact that most of them are friends with fighter pilots on both sides of LoC, who told them the real story. Maybe the venerable mustachio Wing Commander will pay us a visit soon?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 07 Mar 2019, 23:25
by mair
botsing wrote:Currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

On a positive note; it makes it rather easy to track the propaganda trolls. :twisted:


You don’t think the fact that the mi 17 crashed on the same date, in the same vicinity and at the same time that the dogfight was taking place needs an explanation?

Helicopter just happens to suffer a technical fault and crashes and burns right next to an active battlefield?

Also How is this propaganda, neither side has claimed that the chopper was shot down

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 00:46
by weasel1962
botsing wrote:Currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

On a positive note; it makes it rather easy to track the propaganda trolls. :twisted:


+1.

Having gone thru the era as described below. Nothing new.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... beat-29367

According to official releases from Boeing and the U.S. Air Force, the F-15 Eagle has a clear-cut win-to-loss ratio of 104 to zero. But in fact, opposing air forces have claimed, in nearly a dozen cases, to have shot down the iconic, twin-engine fighter.

All the claims have one thing in common. The claimants were never able to provide any evidence for their supposed victories.


Anticipate to wait at least until India elections are over before can get some peace back.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 01:11
by weasel1962
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... n-pakistan

The two days of air raids and skirmishes have provoked a deluge of misleading or outright false reports on social media and from regional media outlets. Virtually all of the local reporting on the conflict has cited anonymous sources and often makes extraordinary claims that demand additional and substantial evidence to be believed.


A lot of evidence here based on recent newbie account posts on this thread...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 06:10
by warbird86
mair wrote:
aten wrote:[]


Just to add to what you stated, what I also find interesting is the fact that Indians are claiming that 4 to 5 AIM120 were fired over Kashmir that day (https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 277222.cms). The fact that they discovered one AIM120 the next day is interesting enough as Spain is probably still search for theirs over Estonia, but what happened to remaining 3 to 4 AMRAAMs? Why are they not found? Indians friends are saying that Kashmir is a lot more densely populated than Estonia and the AIM120 they found hit the ground injuring someone and thats how it was found(https://t.co/xAFul4jyky) However no image of impact crater mentioned in the article has been posted anywhere AFAIK. I find it strange that they found one AMRAAM so quickly and others are not found at all, not sure if they are even looking for them.


That AMRAAM very probably seems to have been extracted from the wreckage, since finding the scraps of a high speed missile in the vast Kashmiri mountains is no mean feat. What’s more, this scrap was present in Delhi within 24 hours in time for the press conference by the Indian military top brass. Only question for me is whether said wreckage was an inadvertently hit mi 17 or a deliberately hit Su-30/some other IAF jet.

The wreckage of one AMRAAM was easy to find as it crashed into a village badly injuring a farmer.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 06:11
by boilermaker
So I see Indian news claiming their M2000 has helmet cueing. Is this true?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 06:37
by pagan
Two videos tell the tale.

First video with the white puffs of plane #1.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOdrITApv0&fbclid=

Second video of the missile burst for plane #2 with the white puffs from plane #1 visible in the foreground (ignore the text; fake news)
https://twitter.com/ajayjandyal/status/ ... 5787124736

Two planes down.

That the Pakistani authorities did not show imagery of the 2nd one, after claiming 2 planes down and multiple pilots tells its own story.
=====

The chopper went down nearly 100 KM from the battle-zone. A highly unlikely crash though and could have been an RPG or a ManPad shot.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 06:52
by weasel1962
Looks like fake news and propaganda trolling is not new.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/i ... 59876.html

India has more fake news than anywhere else in the world, report says


https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-asia- ... s-in-india
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/12/ ... 32217.html

Modi's campaign managers had invested themselves heavily into tapping this medium to set the narrative towards an incontrovertible win.


Unfortunately, get to witness this first hand.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 07:04
by vm
botsing wrote:Currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

On a positive note; it makes it rather easy to track the propaganda trolls. :twisted:

Agreed but as a experienced person what's your take on the claims based on available facts ?
Also are the mods in this forum deliberately allowing the new trolls and their propaganda to drive traffic to the site ?
My take is that the 1 mig21 loss by India is the only verified loss. And even this loss might be from ground fired missile. Because Pakistanis have till date not released the pilots view of taking a shot. Also why arnt any missile trails visible in the video prior to the plane catching fire.?
Secondly the claim by the Pakistani spokesperson maj gen that they have 2 pilots in custody, with one admitted to hospital, which they later reduced to one pilot caught, is suspicious.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 08:27
by viper21
Right now, there's a lot of fake news around this air combat in the Indian media. For example, they knew what the captured Indian pilot has been saying even BEFORE he was released back to India.

Some of their "journalists" have even drawn up imaginary flight paths of all the aircrafts in action, heck even the paths of missile shots taken at IAF jets.

So, anything coming from there, take it with a pinch of salt.

I think the IAF shot themselves in the foot by showing the AMRAAM wreckage so early, within 24 hours. How, you may ask?

This only gives credence to PAF's stance that the SU-30MKI that was shot down fell into Indian side. The way AMRAAM has been broken into pieces, 80% chance that it was extracted from the wreckage.

No, it was not taken out from the Mi-17 wreckage. That chopper was probably lost to friendly fire from the IAF itself, or their own SAMs: thequint dot com/news/india/budgam-chopper-crash-court-of-inquiry-probing-all-angles-including-friendly-fire


PAF cannot and will not hide F-16s loss, that can be ruled out. LM/US will immediately know.

Indians can hide their MKI loss, and Russia will never want to reveal it to the world that it was shot down by a US-made jet.


Another thing that people miss is, Su-30MKI lights up like a GIANT FLOODLIGHT on any radar. It has a huuuuge RCS, and it's a big magnet for any radar-guided missile like an AMRAAM.

Right now, IAF has changed the story and say MKI was indeed shot at with an AMRAAM, but it "evaded" the missile.

Highly doubtful, when an experienced Viper pilot like Nauman Ali Khan has made a claim that he shot down the 2nd jet.


We might never get 100% undeniable evidence from any side, I guess.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 09:09
by weasel1962
Pakistani TV on Pakistani fake news

https://www.geo.tv/latest/211174-pakist ... ws-problem

With the rise of the social media, fake news has become a serious societal issue in Pakistan. People, either common or famous do not bother to check facts of even the more serious and defamatory news before sharing them on social media and they are circulated frivolously like petty jokes.


Our crisis is that we don’t bother to re-check or take responsibility to report confirmed news. We just believe at discretion without any proof. One can find out everything at the click of a button and readily confirm the credibility of news from reliable sources but we don’t want to waste those precious minutes from our busy lives and not only take it as it comes but also pass it on irresponsibly and become a participant in creating the pool of fake information.


Botsing already highlighted currently the only interesting thing about this thread is the amount of new members popping up in it.

I can only add 100% agreed.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 15:52
by mixelflick
So we need to give it time. Up until then, there will be lots of speculation.

Until we know definitively, I suggest we put Tom Cooper on the case. Even without all of the known facts, I think his insights would be quite interesting...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 16:05
by mixelflick
tphuang wrote:This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

They had a mig-21 shot down.

They only got one shot off on R-73. The downed pilots claimed this manage to bring down F-16. Funny, since there is no wreckage. And I'm personally quite dubious of Mig-21's situation awareness when it's going down in flames.

Their amazing Su-30 apparently never locked onto any PAF aircraft to even launch weapons.

They got locked on multiple times by PAF F-16s. Long enough to be fired at.

They managed to evade some AMRAAMs fired at the edge of their range (rather than like within 20 miles which would have much better chance of success)

What's there to be proud of from IAF or Su-30 point of view? The flankers couldn't lock onto any F-16s. They defeated AMRAAMs at a range that they should be able to get away with. Those shots were more like hail marys than anything else.


Quite true (about the SU-30). It was in the mix, by India's own account. It was locked onto by PAK F-16's multiple times (not vice versa), and according to them, evaded all ARMAAM's.

So even without losing an SU-30, it wasn't a good showing for India's crown jewel of fighters. Now sure, nobody yet knows the circumstances surrounding such. But if they got locked onto by F-16's, the SU-30's BARS radar should have been able to respond in kind, but didn't. Was it effectively jammed by PAK fighters? Did the SU-30's radar perhaps have a malfunction? Nobody knows.

But I think its fair to say the SU-30 didn't have a good showing, and quite possibly a really bad one. How this is going to go over with Russia/other countries that operate/are interested in the Flanker is anyone's guess. It's likely India is going to be reverse engineering what went wrong (in the air to air arena) for a long time. And if it's true the Mirage 2000's/Spice PGM's missed, they'll be looking hard at that too..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 18:08
by tphuang
viper21 wrote:Right now, there's a lot of fake news around this air combat in the Indian media. For example, they knew what the captured Indian pilot has been saying even BEFORE he was released back to India.

Some of their "journalists" have even drawn up imaginary flight paths of all the aircrafts in action, heck even the paths of missile shots taken at IAF jets.

So, anything coming from there, take it with a pinch of salt.

I think the IAF shot themselves in the foot by showing the AMRAAM wreckage so early, within 24 hours. How, you may ask?

This only gives credence to PAF's stance that the SU-30MKI that was shot down fell into Indian side. The way AMRAAM has been broken into pieces, 80% chance that it was extracted from the wreckage.

No, it was not taken out from the Mi-17 wreckage. That chopper was probably lost to friendly fire from the IAF itself, or their own SAMs: thequint dot com/news/india/budgam-chopper-crash-court-of-inquiry-probing-all-angles-including-friendly-fire


PAF cannot and will not hide F-16s loss, that can be ruled out. LM/US will immediately know.

Indians can hide their MKI loss, and Russia will never want to reveal it to the world that it was shot down by a US-made jet.


Another thing that people miss is, Su-30MKI lights up like a GIANT FLOODLIGHT on any radar. It has a huuuuge RCS, and it's a big magnet for any radar-guided missile like an AMRAAM.

Right now, IAF has changed the story and say MKI was indeed shot at with an AMRAAM, but it "evaded" the missile.

Highly doubtful, when an experienced Viper pilot like Nauman Ali Khan has made a claim that he shot down the 2nd jet.


We might never get 100% undeniable evidence from any side, I guess.


I don't know enough on the topic to comment on rest of what you said, but su-30mki definitely lights up like a giant floodlight on any radar.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 19:45
by weasel1962
...and more mig-21s are shot down by birds than missiles. Another lost today as a result of bird strike. The one thing that is combat proven is that the ejection seat works.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 20:05
by viper21
tphuang wrote:
viper21 wrote:Right now, there's a lot of fake news around this air combat in the Indian media. For example, they knew what the captured Indian pilot has been saying even BEFORE he was released back to India.

Some of their "journalists" have even drawn up imaginary flight paths of all the aircrafts in action, heck even the paths of missile shots taken at IAF jets.

So, anything coming from there, take it with a pinch of salt.

I think the IAF shot themselves in the foot by showing the AMRAAM wreckage so early, within 24 hours. How, you may ask?

This only gives credence to PAF's stance that the SU-30MKI that was shot down fell into Indian side. The way AMRAAM has been broken into pieces, 80% chance that it was extracted from the wreckage.

No, it was not taken out from the Mi-17 wreckage. That chopper was probably lost to friendly fire from the IAF itself, or their own SAMs: thequint dot com/news/india/budgam-chopper-crash-court-of-inquiry-probing-all-angles-including-friendly-fire


PAF cannot and will not hide F-16s loss, that can be ruled out. LM/US will immediately know.

Indians can hide their MKI loss, and Russia will never want to reveal it to the world that it was shot down by a US-made jet.


Another thing that people miss is, Su-30MKI lights up like a GIANT FLOODLIGHT on any radar. It has a huuuuge RCS, and it's a big magnet for any radar-guided missile like an AMRAAM.

Right now, IAF has changed the story and say MKI was indeed shot at with an AMRAAM, but it "evaded" the missile.

Highly doubtful, when an experienced Viper pilot like Nauman Ali Khan has made a claim that he shot down the 2nd jet.


We might never get 100% undeniable evidence from any side, I guess.


I don't know enough on the topic to comment on rest of what you said, but su-30mki definitely lights up like a giant floodlight on any radar.



Yes, in a BVR engagement it's at quite a big disadvantage.

Btw are you the same guy who used to be on sinodefence.. seeing you after so many years.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 22:34
by snypa777
weasel1962 wrote:...and more mig-21s are shot down by birds than missiles. Another lost today as a result of bird strike. The one thing that is combat proven is that the ejection seat works.


I keep waiting for Dehli to showcase the wreckage of a Viper, but i`m still waiting. The picture they showed of an AMRAAM doesn`t look like it detonated, could it have been what was left of a missile that didnt guide and simply crashed?
Until I see a wrecked F-16 I call BS on that claim.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 08 Mar 2019, 23:02
by tphuang
viper21 wrote:Yes, in a BVR engagement it's at quite a big disadvantage.

Btw are you the same guy who used to be on sinodefence.. seeing you after so many years.


Yes I am. SDF was too much time commitment for me to stick around.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 02:47
by mair
Well so far we have pictures and videos of :
-the newly crashed mig 21 in Rajasthan
-the shot down mig 21 wreckage in J and K
-the crashed mi 17 chopper
-an AMRAM 120- C missile

Is it safe to say that since no such evidence of alleged downed viper has emerged that the claim is bogus? Also this article is pretty interesting, since many IAF officers seem to agree with the premise offered by the Pakistani air commodore :
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... stan-f-16/

Note how it’s stated that an AMRAM Air to air missile that fails to hit a target in about 20 seconds stops burning fuel and falls down intact. Can any f-16 fans here confirm that? Also, is there any ballistic expert who can verify if that was the case because judging from its condition it looks like the missile the Indians showed did indeed strike a target. It was almost immediately found because it supposedly hit a village, well Is there any photographic or video evidence of alleged village? Any crater at the impact site? Wouldn’t the speed and trajectory of a ‘dodged’ missile carry it pretty far away from the active battlefield ?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 04:50
by pagan
mixelflick wrote:
tphuang wrote:This is pretty amazing. Let's see what happened here even by IAF sources.

They had a mig-21 shot down.

They only got one shot off on R-73. The downed pilots claimed this manage to bring down F-16. Funny, since there is no wreckage. And I'm personally quite dubious of Mig-21's situation awareness when it's going down in flames.

Their amazing Su-30 apparently never locked onto any PAF aircraft to even launch weapons.

They got locked on multiple times by PAF F-16s. Long enough to be fired at.

They managed to evade some AMRAAMs fired at the edge of their range (rather than like within 20 miles which would have much better chance of success)

What's there to be proud of from IAF or Su-30 point of view? The flankers couldn't lock onto any F-16s. They defeated AMRAAMs at a range that they should be able to get away with. Those shots were more like hail marys than anything else.


Quite true (about the SU-30). It was in the mix, by India's own account. It was locked onto by PAK F-16's multiple times (not vice versa), and according to them, evaded all ARMAAM's.

So even without losing an SU-30, it wasn't a good showing for India's crown jewel of fighters. Now sure, nobody yet knows the circumstances surrounding such. But if they got locked onto by F-16's, the SU-30's BARS radar should have been able to respond in kind, but didn't. Was it effectively jammed by PAK fighters? Did the SU-30's radar perhaps have a malfunction? Nobody knows.

But I think its fair to say the SU-30 didn't have a good showing, and quite possibly a really bad one. How this is going to go over with Russia/other countries that operate/are interested in the Flanker is anyone's guess. It's likely India is going to be reverse engineering what went wrong (in the air to air arena) for a long time. And if it's true the Mirage 2000's/Spice PGM's missed, they'll be looking hard at that too..



The PAF strike package outnumbered the IAF planes 3x.

The first job of the defending planes was to defend the airspace and the ground resources. They did that very well with most of the package unable to get near their targets, and a lot of the smart weapons like H2,H4 bombs being dumped in a hasty retreat.

The top-cover F-16s were near Mangla Dam a good 20-30 Km inside Pakistani territory. They were not what the IAF was trying to get to move away. And they were not the top priority. Those F-16s were probably waiting for the IAF the chase the strike package into Pak territory to be ambushed by the top-cover.

We do not know when the AAMRAMs were launched. They could very well be launched after WingCo Abhi got the R73 on target. They were clearly hopeful shots, at the very end of the engagement range and in an AWACs environment to warn of the launch and a kinematically strong adversary, were low probability shots

And BTW IAF never said that they did not light up the PAF planes. Their RoE did not allow them to strike across the border or cross it (WingCo Abhi was warned twice but he had the F-16 in his sights).

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 04:57
by pagan
mair wrote:Well so far we have pictures and videos of :
-the newly crashed mig 21 in Rajasthan
-the shot down mig 21 wreckage in J and K
-the crashed mi 17 chopper
-an AMRAM 120- C missile

Is it safe to say that since no such evidence of alleged downed viper has emerged that the claim is bogus? Also this article is pretty interesting, since many IAF officers seem to agree with the premise offered by the Pakistani air commodore :
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/03/artic ... stan-f-16/

Note how it’s stated that an AMRAM Air to air missile that fails to hit a target in about 20 seconds stops burning fuel and falls down intact. Can any f-16 fans here confirm that? Also, is there any ballistic expert who can verify if that was the case because judging from its condition it looks like the missile the Indians showed did indeed strike a target. It was almost immediately found because it supposedly hit a village, well Is there any photographic or video evidence of alleged village? Any crater at the impact site? Wouldn’t the speed and trajectory of a ‘dodged’ missile carry it pretty far away from the active battlefield ?


AMRAAM.png


Red shows F-16 holding area; Green shows where one of the missile was found.

Blue are the civilian airports which were active at the time since Indian Airspace was open.

There were clearly two aircraft which went down; there is tons of video evidence.

Why the Pakistani side does not want to talk about the 2nd aircraft or the other pilots they claimed came down answers the question. WingCo Abhi was clearly in Pakistani territory; he did not go there without a reason.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 07:54
by viper21
pagan wrote:hey did that very well with most of the package unable to get near their targets, and a lot of the smart weapons like H2,H4 bombs being dumped in a hasty retreat

....

And BTW IAF never said that they did not light up the PAF planes. Their RoE did not allow them to strike across the border or cross it (WingCo Abhi was warned twice but he had the F-16 in his sights).


So you really believe whatever your media throws around? How about some independent analysis/thinking too?

PAF intentionally dropped the bombs on empty areas, near some military installations. Why on earth would they drop them directly over the army bases? Lead to a war?

Second, it's a nice fairy tale that downed Mig21 pilot was engaging an F-16. He had to tackle JF-17s/Mirages of the strike package first, which he failed to do and was shot down.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 08:29
by pagan
viper21 wrote:
pagan wrote:hey did that very well with most of the package unable to get near their targets, and a lot of the smart weapons like H2,H4 bombs being dumped in a hasty retreat

....

And BTW IAF never said that they did not light up the PAF planes. Their RoE did not allow them to strike across the border or cross it (WingCo Abhi was warned twice but he had the F-16 in his sights).


So you really believe whatever your media throws around? How about some independent analysis/thinking too?

PAF intentionally dropped the bombs on empty areas, near some military installations. Why on earth would they drop them directly over the army bases? Lead to a war?

Second, it's a nice fairy tale that downed Mig21 pilot was engaging an F-16. He had to tackle JF-17s/Mirages of the strike package first, which he failed to do and was shot down.


Let me get this straight:

    PAF outs up a 24 plane swarm
    goes over the LOC
    drops bombs but not on target but inside the compound
    then planes jettison a lot of ordinance.

The question is WHY? What was the PAF trying to prove? That the PAF has planes which can fly??

It was funny for ISPR to spin the jettisoned weapon loads as bombs dropped without the fuse enabled :D

There are tons of picture of H-2 H-4 (on their launchers) on the interweb taken by locals.

There is ample video evidence to prove that two aircraft went down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAOdrIT ... tu.be&t=25 shows the first set of white puffs.

https://twitter.com/LastPagans/status/1 ... 3431959552 is the second plane going down (you can even see the contrails of the weapon which was used) AND the remnants of the first explosion (the white puffs).

And after announcing to the world that 2 planes and three pilots, supported by ample video evidence, eye-witness claims and what not, they suddenly says one plane one pilot. :bang: :bang: :bang:

The IAF is a disciplined air force. During the famous talk by the USAF Col after Red Flag, he mentioned that they never even once had a range rule violation. If the WingCo ignored two warnings of crossing the LoC he had something too special to let-go.

And regarding the original strikes. See the picture of the damage caused by anti-personal explosives from the Mid-East. Note that the walls are still intact.
https://twitter.com/Chopsyturvey/status ... 0183996416

And as they say the fact that the journalists were taken to the ridge but not the main building which was stuck, and the buildings have been off limits till its own story; just like the missing plane and two pilots which suddenly disappeared from the ISPR conversation in spire of the video evidence and the eye-witnesses.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 09:37
by viper21
@pagan,

Too many fairy tales and fake news in your post to even reply. I give up.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 09:59
by weasel1962
The joke in some quarters is that the Bikaner crash on Friday was an f-16 because it looked exactly like the one that crashed in Pakistan...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 10:52
by tomcooper
It's quite amusing to read this thread - and especially all the discussion about the media, and its reliability.

The mass-media this, the mass-media that... as if it would make sense to discuss it. Also funny is widespread thinking in style of 'they fly F-16s so they are our friends', indeed, 'the only ones speaking truth'.

Permit me first to remind everybody that one has to see things within their own context. Pakistan might be widely considered an 'ally' of the USA, and yes, it's air force is flying F-16s. But, this neither means it's an ally, nor is Pakistan always speaking truth. Quite on the contrary.

Essence in this story on hand is the never-ending commitment of the Inter-Service Intelligence (ISI) of Pakistan to supporting world-wide jihadism. Should this not ring any bells, try to find out who trained Ramzi Yousef - the originator of the idea of hijacking airliners and then flying them into skyscrapers and similar places, so 'skillfully' realized by AQ/OBL on 9/11. The ISI remains committed to support of such gangs until this very day, as you can read in studies like this one.

Pakistan is currently going through deep economic problems, too, as obvious from reports like this one, and this one, which in turn means its government is keen to distract public attention.

It's on hand that ordering the ISI to launch one of its gangs into another terror attack on India is one of simplest solutions in such cases. This is obvious from the lengthy list of Pakistan-supported terrorist attacks on India.

When it's in its interest, official Pakistan is ready to deny even the involvement of entire regiments of its regular military in attacks on India. Good example for this was the involvement of the 1st Northern Light Infantry Regiment in the Kargil War of 1999: this suffered 450+ KIA in that war. It took official Pakistan 11 years to admit this in the public.

...all of which means: the Pakistani government can't be sincere, otherwise it would have to admit it's supporting jihadists/terrorists. Just for the start.

***

Re. IAF air strike of 26 February: there are big discrepancies between what the media is reporting, and what the official representatives are reporting.

- Yup, seems it was the Mirage 2000Hs of the IAF that flew that air strike. That's kind of 'generally accpeted', but right now I do not recall any official statement in regards of exactly how many were involved or what ammo did they use. There are just 'assessments' by the Indian media in this regards.

- Target of that attack was a Madrassa (or religious/Qoran-school) run by Masood Azhar, the founder of the Jaysh e Mujahidden. Pakistan denied the existence of that Madrassa, but was caught lying by researchers checking property records. BTW, mind that Azhar was jailed in India until exchanged for more than 150 hostages during the hijacking of an Indian airliner in 1999. If Pakistan is as sincere, it could explain how comes it tolerates such characters providing religious teachings to anybody.

...or explain how comes Azhar remains under US sanctions because of his links to the Taliban?

- Results of that air strike remain disputed: sure, not only Pakistan but the Qatari and Western media too have declared it for a failure. It's not making things any better that New Delhi provided no clear evidence of success so far - apparently because of the failure on its recce satellite that was to take post-strike photos. Pakistan supports its statements with such explanations like 'there's no damage', 'nobody got killed', 'IAF scared away by the PAF'.

But, I do wonder how comes not one of all the possible journos supposedly 'free' to roam the area as they like, have found even one of 600 'students' from that Madrassa to interview?

...or how comes the photos supposedly providing the proof of a failure show the main building having four big holes in its roof? Perhaps every house in Pakistan has big holes in its roof...?

...and I wonder how comes one can find the 'official' statement by Maulana Ammar, Masood Azhar's younger brother, complaining that Indians destroyed their Madrassa, complaining about the Pakistani media and Pakistan Army's 'lies'...?

...why did the Pakistan subsequently arrest 44 members of the JEM...?

...or how comes the the locals are complaining about a 'media blackout' (in Pakistan)...?

***

Re. air combat from the morning of 27 February: there is an endless mass of claims.

All that can be considered as 'confirmed' is:

- 1 MiG-21 crashed inside the Pakistan-controlled Kashmir
- 1 AIM-120 (i.e. its wreckage) was found inside India-controlled Kashmir
- Pakistan stated (officially) 'no F-16s were used', which is an obvious lie, because no other PAF aircraft but F-16s can deploy AIM-120s.
- PAF has officially credited two of its pilots with aerial victories (their names are mentioned in this report, too). It's unclear what did they fly on that morning.
- New Delhi officially credited its MiG-21-pilot with an F-16-kill.

That said, several videos taken by Pakistani nationals cite two or even three 'parachutists', i.e. pilots that ejected. Indeed, even this man who was involved in the arrest of the Indian MiG-21-pilot says there were 'two parachutes'.

...how comes if the IAF lost no other jets, and the PAF lost no jets at all - as New Delhi and Islamabad insist, respectively?

IMHO, discussing anything beyond these points makes actually no sense. But, should there be questions... well, let me know.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 11:55
by Shimud
tomcooper wrote:It's quite amusing to read this thread ... well, let me know.


Pertinent to mention that the disputed territory of Kashmir is the crux of problem.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 12:25
by tomcooper
Far from that. What Pakistan is doing is since longer not related to Kashmir any more.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 13:53
by mair
Tom cooper I like how most of what you have linked and referenced is from twitter, Facebook and YouTube. Where you can also find similar information claiming that the Earth is flat.

It’s a very long and complicated debate about Pakistan and the existence of militant groups over there and in Afghanistan, and we can get into that, but it’s not really the topic of this thread now is it?
But I will say this much: Pakistan’s prime minister Imran khan asked the Indians to share any information that they had about any alleged terrorists operating in Pakistani soil BEFORE the 26th which India refused to do. But after the 27th Pakistan was handed over a dossier by India containing said info . So it’s natural that they would act against those 44 individuals now.
Also officially Pakistan has banned the JeM since 2002, there may well have been rogue members of the ISI supporting them but it wasn’t even known to most Pakistani army officials, let alone government or civilians.

Now getting back to the topic.
Can you provide proof of any journalists being denied access to alleged Balakot camp area? Because I have not heard any independent news media like the BBC, Al Jazeera, the guardian etc making such a claim. Please don’t link some random persons social media account as ‘proof’.

Are 4 ‘big holes’ evidence of a successful hit? It was a 1000kg bomb, those buildings shouldn’t have been left standing unless of course they were made of some as yet undiscovered ballistic resistant materials.

Won’t respond to the rest of your post, they are just biased opinions and links to twitter and Facebook as ‘evidence’.(or Indian media reports, that have every reason to be biased).

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 14:18
by madrat
We have no evidence an AIM-120 or R-73 hit anything. The smoke trails actually look like they came from the ground and not aircraft.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 15:05
by mixelflick
To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.

Whose jet(s) those were, will probably be debated for a long time. I stand by my assertion though it was a sub-par showing for the SU-30. Getting locked up by F-16's and having to dodge AMRAAM's (both per the IAF) with no offense of their own has to be concerning.

They're thought to be the dominant fighter in the region, and they were anything but dominant that day..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 15:40
by icemaverick
mixelflick wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.

Whose jet(s) those were, will probably be debated for a long time. I stand by my assertion though it was a sub-par showing for the SU-30. Getting locked up by F-16's and having to dodge AMRAAM's (both per the IAF) with no offense of their own has to be concerning.

They're thought to be the dominant fighter in the region, and they were anything but dominant that day..


Ok but what does that say about the F-16 that was locked up by the MiG-21? The F-16 apparently had to dodge an R-73.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:19
by mixelflick
Says the pilot could have done a better job. In all candor, with HOBS missiles today ANY aircraft (even an F-22) that gets info a furball risks getting locked up, shot down and the pilot lucky if he's in his chute.

I guess the most telling thing in this whole saga was the Indian PM's recent comments..

"Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday accused the Opposition of playing politics over the Rafale deal, saying the entire country was now feeling the need of these fighter planes.

“The country has felt the shortage of Rafale jets. Today, India is asking in one voice what could have happened if we had Rafale. First selfish policies and then politics over the Rafale deal have harmed the nation,” Modi said at the India Today Conclave in the national capital."

When your PM is using words like this to describe the air skirmishes you just fought, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Frankly, he sounds like he's had some sobering de-briefs...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:21
by tomcooper
mair wrote:Tom cooper I like how most of what you have linked and referenced is from twitter, Facebook and YouTube. Where you can also find similar information claiming that the Earth is flat.
If you ignore TANDF and official statements - including those from the Pakistani Parliament - sure.

Relativising everything is easy - especially for those insistent on avoiding Pakistani involvement in supporting jihadists all over the Globe, a matter of fact ever since Afghanistan, the Beartrap was published (a book authored by nobody less than former CO of ISI's Afghan Bureau).

But I will say this much: Pakistan’s prime minister Imran khan asked the Indians to share any information that they had about any alleged terrorists operating in Pakistani soil BEFORE the 26th which India refused to do. But after the 27th Pakistan was handed over a dossier by India containing said info . So it’s natural that they would act against those 44 individuals now.
This is nothing but absurd. Thanks to production of all the possible dossiers about the jihadist groups supported by Pakistan, and the continuous provision of the same to Islamabad, the RAW - Indian equivalent of the CIA - became one of biggest producers of toilet paper on the Sub-Continent.

The Pakistani government knows very much what's going on: the ISI is not running at least a dozen of diverse jihadist groups on its own, but on instruction of the Pakistani government.

And, since dozens of attacks of Pakistan-supported jihadist groups on India are the reason for the IAF air strike on the terrorist training camp outside Balakot, this matter is very much on topic here. Without such activity in Pakistan, there would've been no air strike, and the PAF would never come to the idea to launch its 'counter-strike' (which is actually the only thing that 'failed' in this affair).

Also officially Pakistan has banned the JeM since 2002, there may well have been rogue members of the ISI supporting them but it wasn’t even known to most Pakistani army officials, let alone government or civilians.
Yeah. And, how comes then the JEM runs a Madrassa with 600 'students' outside Balakot?

Can you provide proof of any journalists being denied access to alleged Balakot camp area? Because I have not heard any independent news media like the BBC, Al Jazeera, the guardian etc making such a claim. Please don’t link some random persons social media account as ‘proof’.
No. That's the another absurd point here: how comes all the supposed journos 'free' to visit the bombed site, can't go there to take photos, and publish these? How comes not one of them has published any interviews with the 3-4 thugs running the JEM? None with any of their 'students'?

The closest they get to that terrorist camp is the table about 2km down the road, pointing at the fact that there is a Madrassa 'Taleem ul-Qoraan' run by the JEM in that direction, with telephone numbers etc. See attachment.

Isn't it an outright Christmas wonder none of the journos taking photos of that table, i.e. getting there, couldn't get any closer to the Madrassa? Couldn't reach the telephone number in question and get any kind of interviews?

How comes - if there is no blackout...?

Are 4 ‘big holes’ evidence of a successful hit? It was a 1000kg bomb, those buildings shouldn’t have been left standing unless of course they were made of some as yet undiscovered ballistic resistant materials.
Nonsense. I never said '1000kg' bomb. I said 'four holes'.

BTW, here a photo-report from a hangar at T-4 AB in central Syria, converted into Swiss cheese by multiple Israeli PGMs, about a year ago: would you please kindly explain me how comes that structure still stand there (and is meanwhile in use by the IRGC again), although obviously penetrated by multiple PGMs and having everything inside smashed?

You think 'only the Israeli PGMs can do such things, Indian not'...? If so: mind to substantiate?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:29
by tomcooper
viper21 wrote:PAF intentionally dropped the bombs on empty areas...
Where is the evidence that 'PAF intentionally dropped the bombs on empty areas'?

The only 'evidence' for the PAF dropping anything at all are photos like the attached one, showing ammo the PAF jettisoned over some field in NW Pakistan.

...now, word is that no aircrew is jettisoning such ordnance just like that - if not in emergency, but well: I'm sure that Pakistan-apologisers are going to have a truck-load (or two) of explanations...

Why on earth would they drop them directly over the army bases? Lead to a war?
You do understand that for those at the targeted installation, 'shooting in direction of a military installation' is the same like 'shooting at the military installation'... i.e. that, in response to a counter-terrorist air strike by the IAF, the PAF attempted to hit back at the Indian Army, thus breaching multiple rules (especially the Treaty between India and Pakistan from 1989, which stipulates that neither side is supposed to shoot at the other over the LOC)...?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 18:24
by mair
tomcooper wrote:
If you ignore TANDF and official statements - including those from the Pakistani Parliament - sure.

Relativising everything is easy - especially for those insistent on avoiding Pakistani involvement in supporting jihadists all over the Globe, a matter of fact ever since Afghanistan, the Beartrap was published (a book authored by nobody less than former CO of ISI's Afghan Bureau).


What? When did Pakistan’s parliament claim responsibility for running jihadi terror camps in Balakot?

That book is about Afghanistan. This issue is about Kashmir(or India/Pakistan). Can you develop the ability to stay on topic ?
Oh and btw why don’t you also mention the CIA and the Saudis, who are listed as the creators of the ‘mujahideen’ aka terrorists in the link that YOU just gave yourself? The ISI did act as a conduit to train said mujahideen forces, at the request /dictation of USA and others in the 80s. This was also when the first F16s were sent to Pakistan .

It was the era of the Cold War, and the Soviets had just invaded Afghanistan ok? More than two dozen countries and intelligence agencies directly supervised the training and arming of these ‘terrorists’ chief of which was the CIA. All these terror nut bags were imported en masse during that era, specifically Al qaeda.
I’m well aware of that book and had it and many other sources of info in mind when I said that this is a highly complex , multi faceted issue that people like you paint with a broad brush while ignoring the historical baggage that came with it. I can even prove that the techniques these terrorists use were taught by the militaries of specific countries including Pakistan and the USA and how US soldiers accounts In Afghanistan would corroborate that.

People throw the word ‘terrorists’ and ‘terrorism’ around (and that’s what these guys are in case you lack comprehension I don’t in any way support or justify them) but don’t be an ignorant fool and pretend as if they all just magically dropped out of the sky and into Afghanistan and Pakistan.(both countries were actually secular in the 70s believe it or not)
This is nothing but absurd. Thanks to production of all the possible dossiers about the jihadist groups supported by Pakistan, and the continuous provision of the same to Islamabad, the RAW - Indian equivalent of the CIA - became one of biggest producers of toilet paper on the Sub-Continent.

The Pakistani government knows very much what's going on: the ISI is not running at least a dozen of diverse jihadist groups on its own, but on instruction of the Pakistani government.

And, since dozens of attacks of Pakistan-supported jihadist groups on India are the reason for the IAF air strike on the terrorist training camp outside Balakot, this matter is very much on topic here. Without such activity in Pakistan, there would've been no air strike, and the PAF would never come to the idea to launch its 'counter-strike' (which is actually the only thing that 'failed' in this affair).


Anything that doesn’t go well with your own thoughts is ‘nothing but absurd’.

Let’s assume that the Pakistani government really is complicit and not faced with the left overs of a problem that’s grown too big to handle any time soon, shall we?

Why did India even bother to hand over the dossier to Pakistan just now then? Not much point to it is there since they actively sponsor ‘jihad all over the globe’?(a statement that is actually true in reverse, I.e the whole world had actively sponsored Jihad in Pakistan’s north/northwest and Afghanistan in decades past).

Yeah. And, how comes then the JEM runs a madrassah with 600 students outside Balakot?


A madrassah isn’t a terror camp. Do you have any idea what a ‘madrassah’ even is? Also even if there was a terror camp this point is easily explicable if you read and understand what I have just written above.
It would take decades to completely dismantle all this militant infrastructure since over the decades it has gained support amongst the locals who hide and protect these individuals. It’s also a FACT that the bomb attacks in Kashmir cannot happen unless the local populace within IOK were to actively shelter and aid and abet these terrorists. Nobody talks about this because it’s uncomfortable and so much easier to just blame one or two countries instead. But the truth is terrorism is an idea, that only exists when there’s extremism, and you have to change peoples minds to defeat that. There is no military solution to it.

It’s been 17 years that America has been in Afghanistan. The taliban are even stronger today. If you think Pakistan is even capable of doing all that than explain Iraq ? Or Syria ? ISIS was formed years after the US invasion, and even if it’s defeated other radicals will take over unless people’s minds are changed through politics and diplomacy.

All this is just the icing on the cake. And there’s no military answer to win the war on terror. Otherwise Iraq wouldn’t have turned into what it did. This is completely off topic but a necessary discussion if anybody wants to honestly engage with and actually solve the terror problem. Ask yourself why India even suffered a terror attack even though they carried out a surgical strike two years ago? Military action to stop terror attacks don’t work. Terrorism isn’t an army or a country. This is a fact and cannot be ignored if you want to eradicate this menace rather than going for a lazy and easy default like blaming XYZ country.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 18:30
by icemaverick
mixelflick wrote:Says the pilot could have done a better job. In all candor, with HOBS missiles today ANY aircraft (even an F-22) that gets info a furball risks getting locked up, shot down and the pilot lucky if he's in his chute.

I guess the most telling thing in this whole saga was the Indian PM's recent comments..

"Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday accused the Opposition of playing politics over the Rafale deal, saying the entire country was now feeling the need of these fighter planes.

“The country has felt the shortage of Rafale jets. Today, India is asking in one voice what could have happened if we had Rafale. First selfish policies and then politics over the Rafale deal have harmed the nation,” Modi said at the India Today Conclave in the national capital."

When your PM is using words like this to describe the air skirmishes you just fought, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Frankly, he sounds like he's had some sobering de-briefs...


Oh I 100% agree that India needs the Rafale and fast. They need to replace their ancient MiG-21s ASAP and the Tejas isn’t going to cut it. But getting locked up doesn’t necessarily mean the Su-30s had a “poor showing.” Arguably, the IAF achieved its objectives: they chased off the PAF attack and no ground targets were hit. By most accounts, the Pakistani incursion was extremely brief.

Using your same logic, the F-16s had a poor showing because one of them was close to being downed by a MiG-21...and if you believe the Indian side of things, it WAS shot down (I personally doubt it).

I wouldn’t put that much stock in Modi’s comments. He has been lobbying for the Rafale deal to go through for 3 years now. Of course he’s going to use this to push his agenda as any politician would do. The Rafale deal has been tied up due to allegations of bribery/corruption.

All that being said, the Russian missiles are probably at a disadvantage against AMRAAMs. Are there any confirmed combat kills with the R-77 “Amraamski?” I think the MICA is at a disadvantage too. India is set to get the Meteor and that should neutralize the advantage and maybe even give them a slight advantage over the AMRAAM-C, which the Pakistanis have.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 05:05
by bison_buster_pakistan
There's no compelling evidence at all of an F-16 even engaging in the first place.

We definitely would've seen a trump tweet with POTUS expressing his distaste at PAF using falcons. Nothing of that sort ever happened.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 06:43
by knuckles
Vipers were used. No.9 squadron took part. JF-17s were used as well.

One Viper bagged a two-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Indian area. Fate of 2 pilots unknown.

One JF-17 bagged a single-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Pakistani area. That pilot was captured, rescued by the Pak Army from the local mob and then handed over a few days later back to India. Lucky his ejection was safe.

No Vipers were lost on Pakistan's side, no matter how much the Indian media claims it to be true.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 07:27
by pagan
viper21 wrote:@pagan,

Too many fairy tales and fake news in your post to even reply. I give up.


mair wrote:Tom cooper I like how most of what you have linked and referenced is from twitter, Facebook and YouTube. Where you can also find similar information claiming that the Earth is flat.

It depends on what the FB/Twitter link is showing.

In a lot of cases, they will show the action as seen by normal civilians. It is raw and unadulterated with any spin.

It is a boon for OSINT, since you can then connect the dots. And it is very timely; people post on social media within minutes of seeing the action.

In comparison, official news briefings will have their own flavor.

In the case of the two videos I have shared about the explosions. They both capture the action as it happened.

The 1st video shows the ejections and the flaming aircraft falling; you can hear two ejection booms and the videographers talking about two parachutes.

In the 2nd video you can see the remnant white puffs of the 1st aircraft, and the second explosion. You can even see the contrails of the missile which hit the 2nd plane.

It does not get better than that.

mair wrote:Now getting back to the topic.
Can you provide proof of any journalists being denied access to alleged Balakot camp area? Because I have not heard any independent news media like the BBC, Al Jazeera, the guardian etc making such a claim. Please don’t link some random persons social media account as ‘proof’.

Are 4 ‘big holes’ evidence of a successful hit? It was a 1000kg bomb, those buildings shouldn’t have been left standing unless of course they were made of some as yet undiscovered ballistic resistant materials.

IAF or Official defense ministry did not talk about the weapons used or whether it was hit.

The Reuters reporters were taken to the site but not allowed into the seminary.

The first photo of the building clearly shows burn marks on the walls. It also shows a small window on the smaller building through which you can see the sky (indicating roof penetration)

And there are numerous other sources from other incidents showing damage from fuel based explosives which leave the buildings intact but scorch the interiors.
====

Hello Tom Cooper. Running into your work after many years.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 08:23
by mair
Tom cooper if all that’s true and they are ‘sponsors of global jihad’ then why did India even bother to hand over the dossier to ‘terrorist and jihadi’ Pakistan? https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/m.econo ... 189918.cms
To use as toilet paper?

Btw you might want to actually read that link(bear trap) you posted, it’s about the CIA and ISIs (amongst others, notably the Saudis)covert support to the ‘Mujahideen’ fighters back in the Reagan era. That’s what created this mess that’s still a challenge to dismantle today. Of course the ISI openly supported those ‘mujahideen’ (who have morphed into terrorists today) that’s why America gave aid to them cuz these fighters inflicted massive damage on the Soviets in Afghanistan. This was also when Pakistan got its first F16s.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 08:38
by viper21
tomcooper,

Stop turning this thread into a political stunt.

You're clearly not aware of history, the proxy supports and how these same 'proxies' were hosted in the DC when they wanted to use them. And how much mess they created in the 80s/90s after pulling out of AFG.


Keep this thread technical and about the air combat that took place. Go back to your breit bart hole for political discussions.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 08:45
by viper21
I wonder if any of these air forces will release some kind of HUD footage. Looks unlikely from both the sides.

In PAF's case, all they need to do is confirm with LockheedM and account for all the f-16s.

If a Su-30MKI was really lost, will we ever get to know? It would go to Russian blackhole.

And I guess at the next Red Flag or any international exercise PAF is participating in, USAF and others would be super interested in this Flanker encounter. :wink:

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 09:23
by vm
So have the Pakistanis shown the 2nd captured pilot as claimed by their official spokesperson and PM Niazi (no relation to gen niazi, the general who signed the surrrender documents in 1971) ?
They have made multiple claims of the captured 2nd pilot.
Its been more than 10 days now. Or maybe they were just lying.??

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 10:01
by viper21
@vm, have you been living under a rock? It's one captured pilot, as later confirmed/corrected.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 10:26
by vm
viper21 wrote:@vm, have you been living under a rock? It's one captured pilot, as later confirmed/corrected.

Problem is that your official spokesperson and PM make statements on live TV, which subsequently turn out to be fake. These are big blows to whatever credibility of pak army.

While no official statement from Indian defence forces has been disproved yet.

Also Pakistani claim of 2nd pilot and subsequent withdrawal lends credence to pak airforce losing a fighter jet.
Their is a time gap of 7 hours between the aerial encounter and PM Niazis statement of 2 pilots. Enough time to verify.
Withdrawal of the fake ISPR statement came after 2 days. Something smells.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 10:49
by gideonic
Why isn't this thread locked?

Anyone here (with an account registered, you know, before the incident took place) really interested in the fake "discussion" between the two newbie troll-factory'ish accounts?

This is the only thread they are posting anything in and their agenda is stupidly obvious ...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 11:40
by marsavian
Mildly interested in all the possible ways this air combat has been spun, one theory must be right, but which one ? ;) Also appreciated Tom's intervention highlighting the terrorist angle and other technical details. As long as these new interested parties don't repeat their information/spam don't really see the harm, this thread will die down anyway without new developments.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 13:39
by laos
I have a question for the Indian participants of this thread. How the Indian Armed Forces deal with that fact that 15% of India's population are Muslims ? How many of them support Pakistan ? Can Muslims normally serve in the armed forces?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 13:52
by botsing
gideonic wrote:Why isn't this thread locked?

Anyone here (with an account registered, you know, before the incident took place) really interested in the fake "discussion" between the two newbie troll-factory'ish accounts?

This is the only thread they are posting anything in and their agenda is stupidly obvious ...

^ This indeed.

There is nothing interesting about these propaganda trolls polluting the forum, if you like things like that then simply watch their mainstream news.

You will never get any useful information out of them.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 14:07
by vm
laos wrote:I have a question for the Indian participants of this thread. How the Indian Armed Forces deal with that fact that 15% of India's population are Muslims ? How many of them support Pakistan ? Can Muslims normally serve in the armed forces?

They can but are underrepresented due to obvious reasons.
As a hindu I can't really speak for how Muslims in India feel about Pakistan as many have blood relations in Pakistan. Many prominent Muslims are sympathetic to Pakistan during times of tension eg Mumbai attack, which creates tension.
Jinnah the father figure of Pakistan had one kid in 1947 at independence who chose to stay back in India. Her grandson owns one of indias largest airlines now. Wadia group.
Similarly in the Indian Western sector facing Pakistan, the general Corp commander was a Muslim some years back.
India has had 3 or 4 Muslim presidents.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 15:54
by mixelflick
So India is getting Meteor? I assume on their 36 or so Rafale's.

If that's the case, I'd expect them to be pressed into the air to air role and based on the recent skirmish, sooner rather than later. This will put the SU-30MKI into an interesting position. Still their primary air to air machine, but I'm betting it'll be 2nd day of war, after the Rafale's clean house with their Meteor's.

Rafale will bring a whole new level of capability to the Indian air force. Probably the smallest RCS of the bunch, better radar E/W and weapons. And it's no slouch in the dogfight arena. I realize they're being purchased for their "swing role" capabilities, but with a pedigree like that something tells me they'll be used first and foremost to establish air superiority.

Theoretically, the SU-30MKI is superior to the F-16. But late model Vipers with AMRAAM's are more than a match, certainly way too close to parity with the MKI - too close for comfort. If it was me, I'd have Rafale's front and center, as they hold a distinct advantage over even late model PAK Vipers IMO. I would even argue they're superior to the F-16IN, or F-21 if that catches on.

For their part, PAK is at a crossroads. They won't be getting the F-35 anytime soon, and the US really doesn't have a platform significantly more capable than late model F-16's. Perhaps they'll buy the F-15X, LOL. It's RCS is huge, but the killer AESA and AIM-120D would be an interesting counter to the Rafale/Meteor. Likely it too though, wouldn't be for sale to them.

For that reason (and others), India is poised to leapfrog the PAK air force in the years to come. I hope they get their acquisition model in order, lest they wind up like Canada. Was about to say "or worse", but nothing comes to mind.. :)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 16:31
by icemaverick
I doubt the US will be selling a whole bunch more stuff to Pakistan any time soon. Relations have been fairly strained lately. The US-Pakistan relationship is mostly one of necessity (mainly due to Afghanistan) and there is a lot of mutual distrust. Pakistan does have very good relations with China and China sees them as a counterweight to India. Probably the Pakistanis will buy whatever advanced fighters China will sell them...perhaps the J-31 or even the J-20? That should give them a pretty potent force.

Meanwhile, we (the US) now see India as a counterweight to China. Especially with what’s going on the South China Sea, I think our government will want to help out China’s regional rivals including India, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines. India has been buying a lot more US stuff lately such as the P-8 Poseidon and C-17s. They also bought some nuclear reactors. But there is also some unpleasant history between the US and India so I’m not sure India will pull the trigger on an American jet or even that we’d offer them the most advanced stuff.

The Rafale is a good buy for India in the medium term. They like the Mirage and the Rafale is basically a next generation Mirage with two engines. But it’s also very expensive and it won’t get them into the stealth game. They might be interested in the F-21 since they are interested in manufacturing it domestically.

Pakistan actually has a realistic pathway into the stealth game through China. India doesn’t seem to right now because the Su-57/PAK FA/FGFA looks like it’s shaping up to be a flop. If relations continue to improve with the US, they might be offered the F-35 at some point in the future.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 01:09
by jedijedi
I did not know this thread will have ballooned so much since the last time I posted a few days ago. I respect the old members and their assertion that its now a troll thread with punches from both sides.

- Someone claimed the shot down Indian pilot said he shot down a F-16. I haven't been able to find one statement from the pilot post his release back to India let alone his statement about downing the F-16. If someone has been able to find a statement (from credible/official sources), please educate me. Others have posted that his last radio call was that he had locked onto an F16 with a R73 missile. Yes, I envy you dearly as you're privy to radio calls of a downed Indian pilot when the pilot himself is being closely guarded and not being allowed to appear on media to protect him and everyone else that could be effected by his statements.

Here are some of the rumors going about actions taken by both India and Pakistan.

- Indian rumors said they neutralized 200-350 terrorists. The only information in this regard was from Ministry of External affairs which said 'many terrorists' were neutralized. That also has proven to be unsubstantiated and they have cited using cell phone information to having seeing cars and some media reported mass graves nearby.

- Some reports say India used 4 Mirage 2000 aircraft while others say they used 12. Most seem to agree they used 1000KG Israeli SPICE stand-off weapons though. How the hell can people make these claims. I bet they're professionals who were involved in this and didn't leak this out to facebook warriors like some of us here.

- Some reports say Indian planes crossed into Pakistan but I wonder why risk crossing when you know you have to drop stand-off weapons. If planners asked the pilots to do this, and they were trying to troll Pakistanis, they weren't very peace loving and something like this shouldn't really be looked up to as heroic. That was a half calculated risk considering dark of the night and a scarcely defended area but the risk from the same airforce pilot backfired when he crossed over a day later chasing a Pakistani plane. So anyone thinking the troll value of this is high is not being smart.

- Some reports say Pakistan used 24 planes in its strike package while they count 12 (four F16, four JF17, 4 Mirages). Such a cute easy addition for someone like me with poor math. I like whoever you are. Maybe the rest of the 12 planes were Mig 21 copies J7 that Pakistan has aplenty.

- Sympathizers of India cite Pakistani official statements about multiple pilot which are something to be considered. But if Pakistan is to be believed, then why not believe it when it says it shot down 2 planes.

- They also cite AMRAAM as evidence that Pakistan used F16s in violation of their terms with USA and point out to Pakistani spokesman's lies when he said F16s weren't used in the operation. My points

i - You should expect the unexpected in a school fight, let alone a proper battle with a nuclear armed neighbor. Really, you want to use this as an excuse. Well the other kid had a stick, the other boxer had better gloves, the other guy had a better car so I lost. Sorry!

ii - Pakistan would've been extremely careful about the use of F16s and probably had them flying parallel to the boundaries on their side to ensure India doesn't bring one down in its territory. They succeeded in doing that.

iii - US sold Pakistan 500 AMRAAMs to fight terrorism and use them for self-defense. What country's airforce threatens Pakistan other than India. Pakistan last used F16s against any country other than India in the 1980s when it shot down Soviet planes. Whoever thought Pakistan wouldn't use AMRAAMs on its planes in a fight with India need not be this naive and need to wake up from their 30 year slumber.

iv - Again, if rumors are to be trusted, which we shouldn't, at least one of the 2 pilots they credit is a veteran on F16 so Pakistan isn't trying to hide it much. Indian senior generals parading shrapnel of an AMRAAM with serials intact in their first official press briefing was downright uncalled for.

- Another rumor on Indian media was that Pakistanis lynched their own pilot. Yes, India shot down the F16 and Pakistanis lynched their own pilot because? They caught the Indian pilot alive and killed their own. You can live in fool's paradise whoever spread this rumor and whoever believed it. You know another verified account. The Indian pilot asked where he was, the people there said you're in India to which he chanted 'Jai Hind' or 'long live India' ... and someone chanted 'long live Pakistan' to troll him. The pilot ran away and was chased down again and caught. That villager whoever said you're in India just to identify him was the ultimate troll.

On the other side.

i - Pakistanis have claimed this particular AMRAAM was sold to Taiwan which has proven false as highlighted by previous posters citing Taiwanese sources.
ii - Pakistanis have shown videos of a pilot down who apparently fell due to a mid air collision in an Indian air show a couple of weeks before this entire saga.
iii - Even if an F16 is shot, your cousin's uncle's nephew's brother in the squadron won't tell you that. They would have a death wish to leak out such information.
iv - Pakistanis did claim shooting down 2 planes and 3 pilots and only found 1 pilot. The first statement did say, 1 pilot captured, 2 in area. In the fog of war, you don't know such stuff but this isn't smart play on their part. Official spokesmen should first confirm stuff and that was dumb.

For all these claims, posters online cite people they know who know people in the Airforce who know people involved in the operation. These weak linkages coupled with use of AF terminology like Squadrons and Rules of Engagement does not make for a credible claim. Some claims may prove true but don't hate people who don't trust you because any intelligent person is not supposed to believe hearsay or rumors. Don't be surprised or feel bad if you receive a shut up call from the veteran posters in the thread (I am a newbie btw).

Lastly, for those who are seeing holes in roofs through satellite images or are citing Pakistan's infamous history with regards to fundamentalism, well there are other forums to discuss that. Don't be too patriotic, read some neutral commentary on the whole series of events. It would've been great if we had kept the discussion to pure technicalities from both sides, but truth is, there isn't much confirmed information either way.

only sad positive, the Pakistanis and Indians seem to agree Pakistanis didn't shoot down the Mi 17 Helicopter so everyone can probably agree it was unfortunate demise of professionals in the plane who weren't directly involved in the fight on that day. Pilot's wife's interview was an eye opener. A sad reminder that this whole thing has no winners.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 01:21
by Corsair1963
knuckles wrote:Vipers were used. No.9 squadron took part. JF-17s were used as well.

One Viper bagged a two-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Indian area. Fate of 2 pilots unknown.

One JF-17 bagged a single-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Pakistani area. That pilot was captured, rescued by the Pak Army from the local mob and then handed over a few days later back to India. Lucky his ejection was safe.

No Vipers were lost on Pakistan's side, no matter how much the Indian media claims it to be true.



Do you have a source or sources to support these claims???

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 02:00
by pagan
I had shared this Reuter's post earlier where they state they have not been allowed to go into the seminary multiple times. Here is a picture they took from over 100m away.

The fireball type damage from Fuel type explosives is visible in the picture of the walls; as is the hole in the roof through one of the windows. Fireballs expand through open windows/doors and the damage is consistent with the type of weapon claimed.

D1PSLYtVYAAbeBg.jpg


And about OSINT. The 1st person on the spot SM videos from the scene of battle posted right after the incident are perhaps the truest representation you will get. I find them extremely valuable for the information they uncover, not the interpretation they may accompany then.

Every one can interpret them the way they want, but they are at least free of official spin and the deliberate fog of war.

I have shared enough SM media evidence that there were two planes hit (or at least one ejection followed by another missile explosion). The first plane was a 2 seater (you can hear two ejection booms) and also the ground witness. The contrails of the weapon leading to the 2nd explosion are also visible, and that video includes the remnants of the 1st plane.

It is not without the realm of possibility that the 1st plane was an IAF Su-30 since it is also a 2 seater. However given that this was inside Pakistani airspace, it is highly unlikely. The Su-30s edge lies in its huge radar and the weapon load where it can take multiple shots. More so given the battle situation that day, it is unlikely that the Su-30 which were the defending force would have gone so far up north or close to the LoC. They were operating further south and defending against the swarm.

The Mig21 however operating from the Srinagar on the ORP are much more likely to chase an adversary into within WVR range, especially since that is the region where military installations were hit. The Pakistani side has not produced a single "official photo" of the 2nd plane. If it had fallen into India I am pretty sure some video or pictures of reports would have hit the social media; it is almost impossible for something like that to happen and not surface with the population density there.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 08:50
by tomcooper
Really funny to see all the reaction from Pakistani trolls: free along the motto, rule No.1 is that Pakistan is always right, and if not, then see the rule No. 1...

mair wrote:That book is about Afghanistan.
I know that contextualising is strongly disliked by people in your position, but really: do you have to be that ignorant as to explain me I should stay on topic?

That book is about explaining that the ISI was the only party responsible for using all the US- and Saudi-supplied money, equipment and supplies to run the seven 'preferred' Afghan Mujahidden groups, at its own discretion.

That's the essence of what the ISI is doing in regards of about a dozen of diverse Jihadists groups over the last dozen of years, too - which in turn is the essence of the reason why India launched its air strike on the JEM terror camp (aka 'Madrassa') outside Balakot, in the night of 26 February 2019.

Attached below is a map of such camps published by the FDD Long War Journal, in turn based on the US Army Counterterrorist Centre. Would you like to deny that too?

It was the era of the Cold War...
But sure. And, what excuse does Pakistan have now for supporting jihadists?

...and pretend as if they all just magically dropped out of the sky and into Afghanistan and Pakistan.(both countries were actually secular in the 70s believe it or not)
Yes, until Pakistani military dictator Zia ul-Haq - a staunch Islamist - increased the support for jihadist gangs by several magnitudes (earlier Pakistani governments did the same, but never to similar extension).

Let’s assume that the Pakistani government really is complicit...
We need not assuming: the former Pakistani military dictator Musharaf has several times declared jihadists run by the ISI for something like 'national heroes' fighting in interests of Pakistan.

Why did India even bother to hand over the dossier to Pakistan just now then?
As you should actually know before trying to discuss a topic of this kind: India has provided one such a dossier to Islamabad - each full of evidence for Pakistani involvement in form of ISI's support for jihadist gangs - after every single terror attack on India of the last 20 years.

I've already posted a link to a full list of such cases, but you simply refuse to click on it and read it.

Not much point to it is there since they actively sponsor ‘jihad all over the globe’?(a statement that is actually true in reverse, I.e the whole world had actively sponsored Jihad in Pakistan’s north/northwest and Afghanistan in decades past).
Ah yes: the CIA/Mossad/al-Qaeda conspiracy... the favourite conspiracy theory between thousands of those circling Pakistan.

So, USA, Israel and India are conspiring against Pakistan; then the USA and Afghanistan are conspiring against Pakistan, and... please help me: who is conspiring together with Iran against Pakistan?

Do you realize, that your establishment and the ISI are running so many terrorist campaigns in neighbouring countries, that at one point in the last week, Pakistan was simultaneously shelled from two, and threatened from a third side too? Something like this:

- Indian Army (using US-made M755 howitzers calibre 155mm) was shelling Pakistan in response to Pakistan Army's shelling;
- US-supported Afghan Army was shelling Pakistan in response to Pakistani support for the Taliban
- Iran was moving military reinforcements to its border to south-western Pakistan (Baluchistan)...

...and all of this is a 'conspiracy', just not related to what Pakistan is doing?

A madrassah isn’t a terror camp.
Well, that's the problem with Pakistan: in theory, madrassas should be no terrorist camps. But, in practice - and then in Pakistan - the are. That's so because your country has used a host of madrassas to create the Taliban, to support al-Qaeda and - more recently - to support about a dozen of other jihadist gangs (see the map below). So, don't explain me what is a madrassa supposed to be: tell that to your lovely ISI and the establishment ordering the ISI to act that way.

It’s been 17 years that America has been in Afghanistan. The taliban are even stronger today.
Yes, they are. Thanks to Pakistan.

The Afghans do not like the Taliban: they know all too well what it is to live under them. Only Pakistan is supporting the Taliban, and only the USA are ignoring the Pakistani support for the Taliban (and other jihadist groups).

That's actually quite a simple situation - and the reason for the current Indo-Pakistani stand-off, including the IAF strike on a terror camp outside Balakot and the air combat from the morning of 27 February.

This is completely off topic but a necessary discussion...
Ah, now it's necessary? How interesting...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 10:07
by tomcooper
jedijedi wrote:- Someone claimed the shot down Indian pilot said he shot down a F-16. I haven't been able to find one statement from the pilot post his release back to India...
Neither was I.

Guess, there is going to be a 'statement for the press', once the IAF feels like doing it. Wouldn't exclude the possibility of them searching for additional evidence in support of what he's likely to support: serious investigations always take time, no matter where.

- Indian rumors said they neutralized 200-350 terrorists. The only information in this regard was from Ministry of External affairs which said 'many terrorists' were neutralized.
Correct: the former were claims by the Indian media, the latter the only official statement in this regards.

- Some reports say India used 4 Mirage 2000 aircraft while others say they used 12. Most seem to agree they used 1000KG Israeli SPICE stand-off weapons though. How the hell can people make these claims.
No idea. I've also got no clue why are people as insistent on the 'Spice-2000' version. Sure, it makes sense to claim it was a 'stand-off-PGM-strike', because that sounds 'sexy', but there are at least as serious (even though also 'unofficial') rumours the Mirages actually went all the way in, and bombed the place using 'dumb' HSLD-bombs.

I bet they're professionals who were involved in this and didn't leak this out to facebook warriors like some of us here.
One of most 'amazing performances' in the entire drama is precisely the behaviour of diverse 'professionals' in the social media. With exception of one Indian general, and a retired Indian Jaguar-pilot, all of them rather 'followed the gang' (i.e. the mass media ), than really posted something useful.

That said, particularly curious is making me the 'deafening silence' from the corner of ex-PAF people: except for one of them trying to explain me the C-in-C WAC IAF was supposedly 'fired' for diverse failures (the Air Marshal in question actually went into retirement on 28 February, exactly as planned already since November last year), haven't heard anything useful from them.

- Some reports say Indian planes crossed into Pakistan but I wonder why risk crossing when you know you have to drop stand-off weapons.
Terrain.

Check the terrain, i.e. check the map, try to imagine all the mountains there. Even loitering PGMs have massive problems with such terrain - and the IAF has no loitering PGMs in service.

...they weren't very peace loving...
...and US Army AH-64 crews are 'intentionally hunting and assassinating Reuters journos around Iraq', and then because they are 'very peace loving'?

Come on...

- Some reports say Pakistan used 24 planes in its strike package while they count 12 (four F16, four JF17, 4 Mirages). Such a cute easy addition for someone like me with poor math. I like whoever you are. Maybe the rest of the 12 planes were Mig 21 copies J7 that Pakistan has aplenty.
Here you might want to inform yourself properly.

- Sympathizers of India...
It 's not about 'sympathisers of India': it's about matters of facts.

On ACIG.info forum we've got a Pakistani who can't stop wondering why all of his compatriots visible on diverse videos from the place where the IAF MiG-21-pilot was collected by the Pakistani Army - either talk about two or three parachutes.

This is simply imposing plenty of questions - and then exactly the same question like about that JEM-run madrassa, bombed by the IAF. Foremost is: why? Why do they report multiple parachutes? And, where are all these parachutes? Even an empty parachute, or a breaking parachute shot away, must sometimes come down to the ground. Where are they? But foremost: why are there no videos of them after they came down to the ground? How comes there are so many reports about two-three parachutes and at least two pilots coming down inside the Pakistan-controlled-Kashmir - but all we get to see is one Indian pilot?

- They also cite AMRAAM as evidence that Pakistan used F16s in violation of their terms with USA and point out to Pakistani spokesman's lies when he said F16s weren't used in the operation.
Please help me now: is it really so that AIM-120C-5s became renowned for self-firing and then flying all the way from, say, Jordan, or Taiwan - only to crash inside India. Could it be 'C-5' stands for their actual range? Say, 50,000km or so?

Perhaps we should add AIM-120C-5s to the list of threatened migration species?

i - You should expect the unexpected in a school fight, let alone a proper battle with a nuclear armed neighbor. Really, you want to use this as an excuse. Well the other kid had a stick, the other boxer had better gloves, the other guy had a better car so I lost. Sorry!
Wrong. And then for multiple - and extremely important - reasons.

India and Pakistan have signed a number of non-attack treaties, including one in 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot BVRAAMs over the LOC (can't find an online reference for it right now), and - at least as important - another from 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot at each other's nuclear facilities.

If the PAF now fired multiple BVRAAMs at IAF aircraft north/north-east of the LOC separating Indian- from Pakistani-controlled parts of Jammu and Kashmir - and, except that AIM-120C-5 really 'migrated' to crash inside India from Jordan, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Moon, Mars or anywhere else: it is clear that it was fired by a PAF F-16 - then all such treaties are null and void.

...which in turn means that henceforth the IAF is free to open fire at any PAF aircraft underway on the other side of the LOC.

THAT is VERY IMPORTANT. Even more so, because rumour has it that the IAF has 'adapted' its ROEs just a few hours after this clash. Which, yes, means: now it's the PAF that can be expected to be 'sorry'.

iii - US sold Pakistan 500 AMRAAMs to fight terrorism...
How do you 'fight terrorism' with AIM-120C-5s?

Has the ISI organized any new air force for one of jihadist gangs it's supporting?

The last I've heard the times of the Pakistan-supported 'Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Air Force' (aka, 'Taliban Air Foce' operational 1995-2001) are long since over.

... and use them for self-defense. What country's airforce threatens Pakistan other than India. Pakistan last used F16s against any country other than India in the 1980s when it shot down Soviet planes. Whoever thought Pakistan wouldn't use AMRAAMs on its planes in a fight with India need not be this naive and need to wake up from their 30 year slumber.
Just a sec, please: do you want to say that the US Congress is full of corrupt idiots that didn't understand the repercussions - or did understand, but intentionally ignored them - when granting permission for delivery of 500 AIM-120C-5s to Pakistan?

'Impossible'...

iv - Again, if rumors are to be trusted, which we shouldn't, at least one of the 2 pilots they credit is a veteran on F16 so Pakistan isn't trying to hide it much. Indian senior generals parading shrapnel of an AMRAAM with serials intact in their first official press briefing was downright uncalled for.

'Uncalled for'?

So, why did Pakistan officially deny the involvement of F-16s - long before the Indians found any kind of AIM-120C-5-wreckage on their soil?

- Another rumor on Indian media was that Pakistanis lynched their own pilot. Yes, India shot down the F16 and Pakistanis lynched their own pilot because?
...it would be the first time a mob lynched own pilot?

...or would you really want me to list about a dozen of such cases (just from the last, say, 30 years)?

They caught the Indian pilot alive and killed their own. You can live in fool's paradise...
Well, since you're into unsubstantiated theoretising, permit me to venture into some substantiated theoretising: Pakistani eyewitnesses/participants of the arrest of the downed IAF MiG-21-pilot all said he pulled his side-arm and fired multiple shots into the air to keep them away.

Why would a PAF pilot do so? After all, he's 'their'.

Perfectly possible reason for a fatal mistake.

i - Pakistanis have claimed this particular AMRAAM was sold to Taiwan which has proven false as highlighted by previous posters citing Taiwanese sources.
Actually: nearly everything official Islamabad said in regards of this affair was a lie. They lie about Pakistan's support for multiple jihadist gangs (and then since decades already); they lie about IAF failing to hit the terror camp ('Madrassa') at Balakot; they lie about 'no F-16s involved' etc. They first said they've captured (actually: 'arrested'; officially at least, India and Pakistan are not in a state of war) 2 Indian pilots, but then switched to the '1' etc.

If somebody is lying all the time, what should be a reason to trust him/her any more?

Lastly, for those who are seeing holes in roofs through satellite images or are citing Pakistan's infamous history with regards to fundamentalism, well there are other forums to discuss that. Don't be too patriotic...
Firstly, and for your info: I'm no Indian, nor a Pakistani citizen.

I'm an Austrian.

...and now I'm really mad, too.

If I'm 'patriotic' when CONTEXTUALISING the situations of this kind so that 'even' people like you can understand what's actually going on, then because I'm really MAD about being screwed up by Pakistani Jihadist supporters for 20+ years; because I can't ****** travel from place A to place B without de-facto undressing on at least one of airport security checkpoints; because of such Pakistani behaviour all the possible retard chauvinists are mistreating even perfectly peaceful and integrated Moslems living between us; because of such Pakistani behaviour I can't even go to the nearby Egyptian Club to enjoy some of great Egyptian food without being cross-checked by the national security service; because all the possible fucktards of our politicians are doing exactly zero to stop all of that bullshit, and for about 75981 other reasons...

After 20+ years of this BS, I think it would be about the time for people like you to finally start understanding the context. At least start accepting there is something like 'context '. AIR COMBATS and AIR WARS DO NOT 'happen'. Not on their own, and not all of a sudden. They also do not happen because there are trigger-happy pilots with testosterone instead of blood flying shiny toys in circles around the clear blue skies while having nothing better to do on Sunday (or Friday) afternoon.

Air forces are serious, professional military services. They've got their laws and regulations, and they've got Rules of Engagement, too. They fly air strikes against terrorist camps because they've been ordered to do so, and because these are terrorist camps. And then there are other air forces that start firing BVRAAMs over the LOC in violation of multiple treaties - because they've been ordered to do so by terrorist-supporting governments, the behaviour of which is ignored by our corrupt politicians since decades.

So tell me, please: how much am I 'taking side' and how 'patriotic' should I be if I simply grew deftly fed up of all of that?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 12:58
by madrat
The twin booms is more likely the missile going supersonic.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 13:25
by jedijedi
tomcooper wrote:Neither was I. Guess, there is going to be a 'statement for the press', once the IAF feels like doing it. Wouldn't exclude the possibility of them searching for additional evidence in support of what he's likely to support: serious investigations always take time, no matter where.


I doubt a statement will be forthcoming. Since 2016's alleged strike, we've come to know that the strike is a million times bloated in media than what supposedly happened on the ground.

Correct: the former were claims by the Indian media, the latter the only official statement in this regards.

I like free thinking people because they don't allow such hearsay to cause national fervor that could impact regional peace or elections. Free thinking people (in any part of the world) always seek evidence, even if it the most respectable looking spokesman of the government. Neither the statements of Pakistani spokesman, nor Indian MEA came without their plethora of clear gaps and had their rhetoric plastered inside them.

No idea. I've also got no clue why are people as insistent on the 'Spice-2000' version. Sure, it makes sense to claim it was a 'stand-off-PGM-strike', because that sounds 'sexy', but there are at least as serious (even though also 'unofficial') rumours the Mirages actually went all the way in, and bombed the place using 'dumb' HSLD-bombs.


An ex IAF employee wrote that this strike even if it was carried out exactly as Indian media claims was not some big coup against Pakistani defenses. They bombed a hill a 100km from the nearest AF base.

(i.e. the mass media)


Mass media on which side. Do you watch opinions on both sides? If so, you should know what side made the most boastful claims.

That said, particularly curious is making me the 'deafening silence' from the corner of ex-PAF people: except for one of them trying to explain me the C-in-C WAC IAF was supposedly 'fired' for diverse failures (the Air Marshal in question actually went into retirement on 28 February, exactly as planned already since November last year), haven't heard anything useful from them.

True, unless someone posts his ID card stating his date of birth that is the best indicator of his natural age of retirement, this shouldn't be believed. How unfortunate for him that he retired the very next day after a strike that is being questioned by not just the opposite side, but people inside his own country and the free international press.

Terrain. Check the terrain, i.e. check the map, try to imagine all the mountains there. Even loitering PGMs have massive problems with such terrain - and the IAF has no loitering PGMs in service.


That terrain would in certain senses increase risks too of being caught off guard, especially so deep into the opposite territory.

US Army AH-64 crews are 'intentionally hunting and assassinating Reuters journos around Iraq', and then because they are 'very peace loving'?


This is credible evidence of people being shot. Nothing of this sort has come out of India and will not. Don't tell me India doesn't want to win the perception war and the government an election when global audience (and to some extent local audience) is seriously doubting their capability and claims regarding strikes. C Christine Fair, an expert on global affairs and the most vocal opponent of Pakistani Army and one who claims openly she'd appreciate Indian strikes (if they happened) openly doubted Indian claims. Just check her last few interviews.

It 's not about 'sympathisers of India': it's about matters of facts. On ACIG.info forum we've got a Pakistani who can't stop wondering why all of his compatriots visible on diverse videos from the place where the IAF MiG-21-pilot was collected by the Pakistani Army - either talk about two or three parachutes.


Let's keep the discussion about this forum and what is shared here and not proliferate this outside. Regarding parachutes, that may just be a valid question but it is not someone's duty here to seek evidence. The side that wants to prove a claim must present evidence. I will write in bold.

- IF PAKISTANIS CLAIM THEY SHOT DOWN A SU-30, THEY MUST PRESENT EVIDENCE.
- IF INDIANS CLAIM THEY SHOT DOWN A F-16, THEY MUST PRESENT EVIDENCE.


Foremost is: why? Why do they report multiple parachutes?


The video isn't bullet proof evidence, a cell phone video at a distance of hundreds of meters if not over a kilometer can't be considered irrefutable evidence. Yes, the commentary may suggest there were multiple chutes but if people shot and beat up the (so far only proven) captured Indian pilot against all protocol and released his videos, why did they not fail to release a single speck of evidence of the second pilot. The people who beat up the pilot were called barbaric and animals on Indian media and such people wouldn't really have had the tech savvy digital media sense aligned with Pakistan's narrative to have kept the video of a second or third pilot hidden.

And, where are all these parachutes? Even an empty parachute, or a breaking parachute shot away, must sometimes come down to the ground. Where are they?


You can't be asking this question. Is that bitter frustration? Say there was no chute, they couldn't present it. If there was one or two chutes, with no pilot, why would anyone present it from Pakistani side to support the Indian case.

But foremost: why are there no videos of them after they came down to the ground? How comes there are so many reports about two-three parachutes and at least two pilots coming down inside the Pakistan-controlled-Kashmir - but all we get to see is one Indian pilot?


Again, this can be your frustration and I would love to know the answer too but your frustration in addition to a legitimate question cannot be considered evidence to support that there were two pilots. It can be used to fuel a rumor though and cast doubt on Pakistani claims and that is what has been achieved. That is the best you can hope.

Please help me now: is it really so that AIM-120C-5s became renowned for self-firing and then flying all the way from, say, Jordan, or Taiwan - only to crash inside India. Could it be 'C-5' stands for their actual range? Say, 50,000km or so?

You are extrapolating a serious discussion beyond seriousness. Someone concocted a story that the serial matched a Taiwanese contract for the same munition but it was struck down quickly. It may be some pro Pakistan internet troll who failed to make any fans by spreading this fake story.

Wrong. And then for multiple - and extremely important - reasons. India and Pakistan have signed a number of non-attack treaties, including one in 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot BVRAAMs over the LOC (can't find an online reference for it right now), and - at least as important - another from 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot at each other's nuclear facilities.


India took unilateral decision of striking sovereign Pakistani territory (Balakot, for all intents and purposes is Pakistan proper, not disputed region) without exchanging evidence with Pakistan. Neither is there evidence that they took some international mediators into confidence. You can't talk force majeure clauses now as Pakistan has credible evidence that an Indian plane crossed onto its side be it in a chase or for any reason. India didn't manage to shoot the F16 (if they did at all) in its territory. Missiles don't have come back home if fail algorithm. Regardless of US questioning Pakistan or Indian protests about Pakistan's use of AMRAAM, Pakistan has nothing to prove other than the well known fact that it shot down an Indian plane in its territory. In this situation, nobody expects Pakistan to have first traced the LoC before firing missiles. Just like the Indian pilot with years of training didn't manage to hold himself on his side and paid the price of being shot out of the sky, Pakistanis weren't expected to be super careful about the line of control.


...which in turn means that henceforth the IAF is free to open fire at any PAF aircraft underway on the other side of the LOC.
Is exactly what Pakistan probably thought when they seized all civilian air traffic. Their care was shown as fear but they were not giving themselves or India excuses. Even if it was to keep radar clutter free, it was smart on their part. Care is what is best in such scenarios.


THAT is VERY IMPORTANT. Even more so, because rumour has it that the IAF has 'adapted' its ROEs just a few hours after this clash. Which, yes, means: now it's the PAF that can be expected to be 'sorry'.


I really don't understand what you mean. I'd rather not chase a rumor.

How do you 'fight terrorism' with AIM-120C-5s?


Exactly, India would be naive to think Pakistan bought 500 AMRAAMs to defend itself from some other foe. Protesting regarding this wasn't called for. You don't say they used unfair means in a war. It wasn't violation of Geneva Convention or anything. It was just use of an extremely potent weapon. India spends 5 times on defense compared to Pakistan, does Pakistan now say well bring your budget down before we fight?

Has the ISI organized any new air force for one of jihadist gangs it's supporting? The last I've heard the times of the Pakistan-supported 'Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Air Force' (aka, 'Taliban Air Foce' operational 1995-2001) are long since over.


Not addressing this, its rhetoric and beliefs and it's going to spread this discussion further.

Just a sec, please: do you want to say that the US Congress is full of corrupt idiots that didn't understand the repercussions - or did understand, but intentionally ignored them - when granting permission for delivery of 500 AIM-120C-5s to Pakistan?


Pakistan received F16s to bitter protests from India and it used the thing in this engagement, no? You need to stop this discussion of fair or unfair and violation of treaties by Pakistan.

'Uncalled for'?


Generals of one of the worlds most potent military powers don't present themselves to the media for their first official statement about an engagement where they were supposedly outmaneuvered with a piece of a munition that they said they took a hit from.

So, why did Pakistan officially deny the involvement of F-16s - long before the Indians found any kind of AIM-120C-5-wreckage on their soil?


Everyone read public statements from Pakistani spokesman about use of F16s or lack thereof. Let us see what concrete actions take place in this regard going forward.

...it would be the first time a mob lynched own pilot? ...or would you really want me to list about a dozen of such cases (just from the last, say, 30 years)?


It has happened in Turkey/Syria border, Iraq and maybe in Afghanistan, but you miss the point. Pakistanis can identify and trick an Indian pilot, yet they are blind and unable to identify a Pakistani pilot by his uniform. his flag, his chute and his accent. Unless the guy (if there was any) fell down dead, he'd have been able to easily identify himself as a local and gotten away unharmed.

Well, since you're into unsubstantiated theoretising, permit me to venture into some substantiated theoretising: Pakistani eyewitnesses/participants of the arrest of the downed IAF MiG-21-pilot all said he pulled his side-arm and fired multiple shots into the air to keep them away. Why would a PAF pilot do so? After all, he's 'their'. Perfectly possible reason for a fatal mistake.


What are you even saying. What exactly did i theorize that beats logic? Pakistani pilot, crashing on Pakistani side would not have had to use a gun and simply needed to say hello in the native lingo to be rescued. To trust the lynch theory, you'd have to believe Pakistanis didn't lynch an Indian pilot with Indian flag on chute, Indian looks, Indian accent, carrying a gun, shooting in the air, while they lynched their own who had none of these working against him.

Actually: nearly everything official Islamabad said in regards of this affair was a lie. They lie about Pakistan's support for multiple jihadist gangs (and then since decades already); they lie about IAF failing to hit the terror camp ('Madrassa') at Balakot; they lie about 'no F-16s involved' etc. They first said they've captured (actually: 'arrested'; officially at least, India and Pakistan are not in a state of war) 2 Indian pilots, but then switched to the '1' etc.

If somebody is lying all the time, what should be a reason to trust him/her any more?


They didn't lie about shooting down and capturing a pilot. They didn't lie when they said they'd retaliate. They said they didn't shoot down the Mi 17. They reported both Indian strike and their own strike first. India didn't officially stop its media from spreading the 200-350 casualty figure. Their MEA statement said multiple deaths with no evidence. This does not work in India's favor and the free and neutral reporting confirms it. I will not cite third party publications questioning all that India claims in this engagement as I am sure you have read them all.

Firstly, and for your info: I'm no Indian, nor a Pakistani citizen. I'm an Austrian....and now I'm really mad, too.


The world is a small place.

If I'm 'patriotic' when CONTEXTUALISING the situations of this kind so that 'even' people like you can understand what's actually going on, then because I'm really MAD about being screwed up by Pakistani Jihadist supporters for 20+ years; because I can't ****** travel from place A to place B without de-facto undressing on at least one of airport security checkpoints;


You are trying to find holes in Pakistani claims to prove Indian claims just because you are bitter that there are security checks at airports?

because of such Pakistani behaviour all the possible retard chauvinists are mistreating even perfectly peaceful and integrated *** living between us; because of such Pakistani behaviour I can't even go to the nearby Egyptian Club to enjoy some of great Egyptian food without being cross-checked by the national security service; because all the possible **** of our politicians are doing exactly zero to stop all of that ****, and for about 75981 other reasons...


I will censor your cuss words so moderators don't find it difficult cleaning the posts.

After 20+ years of this **, I think it would be about the time for people like you to finally start understanding the context. At least start accepting there is something like 'context '. AIR COMBATS and AIR WARS DO NOT 'happen'. Not on their own, and not all of a sudden. They also do not happen because there are trigger-happy pilots with testosterone instead of blood flying shiny toys in circles around the clear blue skies while having nothing better to do on Sunday (or Friday) afternoon.


There was one trigger happy pilot who crossed over into enemy territory while defending his country. This whole discussion is whether that trigger happy pilot shot an F16 or not.

Air forces are serious, professional military services. They've got their laws and regulations, and they've got Rules of Engagement, too. They fly air strikes against terrorist camps because they've been ordered to do so, and because these are terrorist camps. And then there are other air forces that start firing BVRAAMs over the LOC in violation of multiple treaties - because they've been ordered to do so by terrorist-supporting governments, the behaviour of which is ignored by our corrupt politicians since decades. So tell me, please: how much am I 'taking side' and how 'patriotic' should I be if I simply grew deftly fed up of all of that?


Your frustration is justified in its own right and you have a right to read on the topic and make opinions but you will not be able to win many favors in your argument because neither unsubstantiated claims supporting Pakistani claims, nor Indian claims will be entertained on this forum.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 16:13
by tomtom
mixelflick wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.


You have to take the "parachute evidence" within the context of the eye witnesses seeing it? How aviation savvy are they? Consider that some of those parachutes were not aircrew related but air frame related? The same thing happened during Iraq in 2003 with civilians seeing parachutes and reporting to the military that they were seeing pilots bailing out. The Iraqi's wasted a lot of time searching for those downed pilots. These civilians were seeing the parachutes from ALARM missiles and enthusiastically reporting them to the authorities.

Now consider that these civilians were not only seeing the Indian pilot's chute but also the ejection seat drogue chute and a streaming braking chute? To the average person a chute is associated with a pilot or aircrew and seeing it in the sky they would just assume that it is has to have a person attached.

See the tail of the MiG-21 at 1:54. You can see the braking chute cable and the chute housing. Such a chute streaming can cause confusion.


Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 16:46
by mixelflick
Yes, I agree there could be confusion about multiple chutes. No argument there...

But then we have Indian reports early on (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI going down. We also have Indian reports of F-16's locking up SU-30MKI's, and 4-5 AMRAAM shots at said SU-30MKI's, and allegedly the MKI's dodging them. And then the Indian PM's less than glowing commentary as to how the IAF performed/could have really used the Rafale. And finally, we're hearing about how India is changing its ROE's after this little altercation. So taking all of that into consideration, I don't see how India performed all that well, at least insofar as air to air combat is concerned.

I agree PAK has lied repeatedly. I also suspect India has. It's just par for the course in war, nobody wants to lose face. I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount, so we could know for sure if one was downed. If so, OK I stand corrected.

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 18:33
by basher54321
tomtom wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.
You have to take the "parachute evidence" within the context of the eye witnesses seeing it? ]


Yes agree - eyewitness accounts are often useless - people looking at the sky trying to understand what they are looking at and naturally they will come to some conclusion in their minds even if it is way off what is really happening.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 18:34
by warbird86
mixelflick wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.

Whose jet(s) those were, will probably be debated for a long time. I stand by my assertion though it was a sub-par showing for the SU-30. Getting locked up by F-16's and having to dodge AMRAAM's (both per the IAF) with no offense of their own has to be concerning.

They're thought to be the dominant fighter in the region, and they were anything but dominant that day..

I think that was MiG 21 drogue parachute which got separated after being hit in tail

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 18:40
by warbird86
knuckles wrote:Vipers were used. No.9 squadron took part. JF-17s were used as well.

One Viper bagged a two-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Indian area. Fate of 2 pilots unknown.

One JF-17 bagged a single-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Pakistani area. That pilot was captured, rescued by the Pak Army from the local mob and then handed over a few days later back to India. Lucky his ejection was safe.

No Vipers were lost on Pakistan's side, no matter how much the Indian media claims it to be true.

Thete are no twin seat MiG 21 bisons. IAF only has twin seat MiG 21 UM
Infact even the nearest twin seat MiG 21UM is in Rajasthan.

In other news an Indian military offcila told a news channel today that the AMRAAM hit a chaff round.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 19:57
by tomcooper
jedijedi wrote:I doubt a statement will be forthcoming.
Wait and see.

Neither the statements of Pakistani spokesman, nor Indian MEA came without their plethora of clear gaps and had their rhetoric plastered inside them.
Well, either you want to stick to facts, or you don't want.

If you want to stick to facts, then you've got to hang upon official statements. While 90% of their content is rubbish (which is still better than 99,9% of what the mass/mainstream media is reporting) essential is what is not: and in that case, the Pakistani officials are spreading lies, and the Indian not. In worst case, one specific part of what the Indian officials said ('F-16 shot down by MiG-21UPG'), remains unconfirmed.

And if it makes me 'biased' and 'frustrated' and whatever else to mistrust a government that's - principally - lying at every opportunity, so be it.

An ex IAF employee wrote that this strike even if it was carried out exactly as Indian media claims was not some big coup against Pakistani defenses. They bombed a hill a 100km from the nearest AF base.
Who said it was a 'big deal' in technical sense?

Only the Pakistanis convinced of their most vitriolic PRBS are convinced the PAF can 'protect every inch' of Pakistan.

Mass media on which side. Do you watch opinions on both sides? If so, you should know what side made the most boastful claims.
...sigh... I actually can't care less about the mass/mainstream media.

I'm in business of researching air wars and air forces like this one since 30+ years - and then as a freelancer. I'm surely never going to earn a Ferrari from what I do, but you seriously think I need the mass/mainstream media for anything?

How unfortunate for him that he retired the very next day after a strike that is being questioned by not just the opposite side, but people inside his own country and the free international press.
How about you reading the regulations of the Indian military - especially those related to the retirement date - before stating something as...sigh... 'ill-informed' as this here?

The retirement date is announced in advance (in this case in November last year), and then that's it: it cannot be negotiated, it cannot be postponned, nothing. A WWIII can break out, but the regulations say: you retire on that day.

Should you have any doubts, check what happened in the IAF in 2001 mid through the earthquake-relief operations.

That terrain would in certain senses increase risks too of being caught off guard, especially so deep into the opposite territory.
By whom?

This is credible evidence of people being shot. Nothing of this sort has come out of India and will not. Don't tell me India doesn't want to win the perception war and the government an election when global audience (and to some extent local audience) is seriously doubting their capability and claims regarding strikes.
Why should I tell you such stuff?

I'm going to tell you another 'rumour' (you're never going to understand what I mean with that, but well, I can still continue trying): the sat that was supposed to take post-strike photos broke down. That's all.

C Christine Fair...
Who's that, and why should an 'expert on global affairs' be of any kind of importance? If it has to be, give me an expert of air-launched ammo in service with the IAF (not that I really need one, but here's your chance).

The side that wants to prove a claim must present evidence. I will write in bold...
You can write this fat and in fonts 72, too: it's going to change nothing, then nothing you wrote is in any way different or countering what I wrote.

It rather seems to me you simply decided that I'm an 'India fan', and thus 'biased', and thus when I question specific Pakistani statements, then you have to drive your point home... for whatever reason.

The video isn't bullet proof evidence...
When did I say it is?

You can't be asking this question. Is that bitter frustration?
Oh my... now I'm getting it: just another troll.

OK, 'igno' and that's it. Thanks for nothing.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 20:01
by tomcooper
tomtom wrote:See the tail of the MiG-21 at 1:54. You can see the braking chute cable and the chute housing. Such a chute streaming can cause confusion.

Indeed. Here one of classic examples:

http://www.acig.info/forum/download/fil ... &mode=view

BTW, at least two Israeli Mirage-pilots got credited with 'confirmed kills' for actually shooting away braking parachutes of diverse MiG-21s (one from an Iraqi MiG-21, in 1967; another from an Egyptian MiG-21, in 1969).

(Before anybody jumps to any kind of conclusions: no, I do not say this is what has happened in this case, too. On the contrary, what I say is that braking parachutes of MiG-21s 'like' to deploy if that part of the aircraft receives some sort of combat damage.)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 20:19
by tomcooper
mixelflick wrote:Yes, I agree there could be confusion about multiple chutes. No argument there...

But then we have Indian reports early on (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI going down.
There are no 'Indian reports about an Su-30MKI going down'. Only Pakistani claims for that.

We also have Indian reports of F-16's locking up SU-30MKI's, and 4-5 AMRAAM shots at said SU-30MKI's, and allegedly the MKI's dodging them. And then the Indian PM's less than glowing commentary as to how the IAF performed/could have really used the Rafale. And finally, we're hearing about how India is changing its ROE's after this little altercation. So taking all of that into consideration, I don't see how India performed all that well...
Have you got all the info about that clash? Can you say where were F-16s, where were Su-30MKis, where were other aircraft involved? At least what was the terrain below - and how could it be influential?

I also suspect India has.
There's simply no evidence for this.

I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount...
They're going to do so, whether the Pakistanis like that or not. The reason is that Pakistan is obligued to let the Pentagon (and LM) inspect their F-16s at least two times a year.

A slightly different question is the one of what are the Pentagon and LM then going to release about their findings. If one has nothing else to gauge upon, when a PAF F-16 got shot down back in 1987 (yes, my memory happens to go that far back) official Islamabad first said that none was lost - and then maintained that version for about two months, before coming out with the version about 'fratricide fire', and that with help of same people (then working for General-Dynamics, later for LM) who also helped convince the Pakistanis their F-16s shot down 'two Soviet MiG-23MLs' (actually, they damaged one).

What a surprise then, the case is actually unclear until this very day....

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.
Well, sorry to inform you that in the case of Pakistan, this can easily take 50-60 years.

Just one example: official PAF still insists on M M. Alam shooting down '5 Hunters in less than 5 minutes', back in 1965 - no matter how much this was proven to be a lie, and that already 20 years ago.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..
There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.

The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 01:01
by weasel1962
This thread has been entertaining fiction. Not my cup of tea but I like the quote from this article. Its funny that some people assume its F-16 vs Mig-21 when there is no evidence to support F-16 involvement (other than an AMRAAM piece that purported came from another part of town). New F-16 designation on the Pakistani side of the border - "JF-17"?

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/26 ... r-bullshit

Total bullsh*t

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 04:40
by vm
Excellent 1 hour report by Singapore based International - 'channel news asia' yesterday on this topic titled " Pakistan - mainstreaming of terror". The reporters went into the lanes of Pakistani towns and got video interviews of trained terrorists of jaish e mohammad, before having to make a run for it after receiving a phone call. It was all so open that the Pakistani protests of no evidence is comical.
Before we all forget, these airstikes were not dreamt up by India to pass time, they were meant to send a message regarding Pakistan's support to terror.
Also it was in Pakistans hands to prove no damage to the terrorist camps by taking journalists to the camps, but they made excuses of poor weather and TILL DATE have denied access to the camps. While strangely just 100 m away the weather seems to be fine for photographing the "impact sites".
And good luck getting the truth from a Pakistani military establishment which openly declares in Parliament that the military casualties on the border with India cannot be declared as it would effect the morale of the troops.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 19:49
by knuckles
tomcooper wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Yes, I agree there could be confusion about multiple chutes. No argument there...

But then we have Indian reports early on (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI going down.
There are no 'Indian reports about an Su-30MKI going down'. Only Pakistani claims for that.

We also have Indian reports of F-16's locking up SU-30MKI's, and 4-5 AMRAAM shots at said SU-30MKI's, and allegedly the MKI's dodging them. And then the Indian PM's less than glowing commentary as to how the IAF performed/could have really used the Rafale. And finally, we're hearing about how India is changing its ROE's after this little altercation. So taking all of that into consideration, I don't see how India performed all that well...
Have you got all the info about that clash? Can you say where were F-16s, where were Su-30MKis, where were other aircraft involved? At least what was the terrain below - and how could it be influential?

I also suspect India has.
There's simply no evidence for this.

I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount...
They're going to do so, whether the Pakistanis like that or not. The reason is that Pakistan is obligued to let the Pentagon (and LM) inspect their F-16s at least two times a year.

A slightly different question is the one of what are the Pentagon and LM then going to release about their findings. If one has nothing else to gauge upon, when a PAF F-16 got shot down back in 1987 (yes, my memory happens to go that far back) official Islamabad first said that none was lost - and then maintained that version for about two months, before coming out with the version about 'fratricide fire', and that with help of same people (then working for General-Dynamics, later for LM) who also helped convince the Pakistanis their F-16s shot down 'two Soviet MiG-23MLs' (actually, they damaged one).

What a surprise then, the case is actually unclear until this very day....

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.
Well, sorry to inform you that in the case of Pakistan, this can easily take 50-60 years.

Just one example: official PAF still insists on M M. Alam shooting down '5 Hunters in less than 5 minutes', back in 1965 - no matter how much this was proven to be a lie, and that already 20 years ago.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..
There was no 'dogfight' on 27 February.

The PAF was 'orbiting' on one side of the LOC, the IAF on the other. Then the PAF found an opportune moment: Su-30MKIs were heading in opposite direction (one can't orbit in direction of the opponent all the time), and it appeared to the Pakistanis that nobody is airborne over Srinagar. So, they sent 4 F-16s 'in'.

As these 4 F-16s moved in, the Su-30MKIs turned to intercept, in turn prompting the other 4 F-16s to engage them. That's how it happened few AIM-120C-5s 'migrated to India'. But, since AMRAAMs were fired from 30km+ away, all missed (about 10+ years ago, when some really well-informed people were still finding it worth to frequent places like this forum, one could still read why: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=6302&p=75873&hilit=Looks+like+I%27ve+yanked+your+chain#p75873).

Furthermore, the problem is there's a mountain chain with 4,000m (that's about 13,000ft) high peaks in between the LOC and Srinagar. Thus, the PAF AWACS missed the IAF scrambling several MiG-21s from Awantipora FOB and Srinagar AB in response to ingressing F-16s. Yes, ladies and gentlemen: contrary to video games, in reality radars can't see through mountains. First surprise here, I guess.

So, when the MiGs climbed over that mountain chain... 'surprise, surprise': they found themselves at 15,000ft+ - high above F-16s that were ingressing at about 7,000ft. The lead MiG dove, ignoring the fact he's crossing the LOC while doing so, one of F-16s came up towards the MiG. What happened next is unclear.

...that is: until the moments captured on several cell-phones, showing that MiG going down in flames.

Where have I got this? Call it a 'rumour'.

That Viper that was down in 1987.....the pilot who was flying that day is my old man. His jet came in the cross projection of the launched AIM-9 that was going for an intended MiG-23, and the missile went through the wing of the Viper. Fortunately, my old man is still flying fighters to this very day. If you want more details, PM me and we'll talk.

And now new news reports in the Indian media stating the name of the pilot to be Wing Commander Haider Shahbaz Ali. Rest assured, he's alive and well.....currently at Montgomery, Alabama. Walked into a party while declared dead.

Cheers !!!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 23:03
by Corsair1963
Found this on FB.......


QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 23:20
by knuckles
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......


QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be

He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 00:32
by Corsair1963
knuckles wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......


QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be


He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.


Do you have a source to confirm that?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 01:56
by weasel1962
knuckles wrote:He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.


Looks like we're going to see every single F-16 pilot named until they find one that isn't around. And if they don't, then they will start naming every other F-16 aka JF-17 pilot in the list.

19 sqn is based at Bholari near Karachi in South Pakistan.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 03:21
by knuckles
Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......


QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be


He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.


Do you have a source to confirm that?

Yes. He was standing in front of me.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 04:30
by Corsair1963
knuckles wrote:
He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.


Do you have a source to confirm that?

Yes. He was standing in front of me.


You care to give us a little back ground on you and how you know Wing Commander Varhaman???

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 04:35
by knuckles
Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.


Do you have a source to confirm that?

Yes. He was standing in front of me.


You care to give us a little back ground on you and how you know Wing Commander Varhaman???

I don't know Wing Commander Varhaman. Never heard of that name. I posted a picture of the supposed dead (PAF) Wing Commander Shahbaz Ali, former F-16 squadron commander, that the Indian media is now declaring to have been killed in a supposed dogfight. The picture was taken a few days ago at Montgomery, Alabama. He's currently attending a course at Maxwell AFB.

My background.....I did some FTE (as an engineer) time on Vipers. My dad is a Viper driver from Pakistan AF originally, hence I've been born in the air force community. PM me if you want more info.

Cheers !!!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 04:43
by Corsair1963
knuckles wrote:
I don't know Wing Commander Varhaman. Never heard of that name. I posted a picture of the supposed dead Wing Commander Shahbaz Ali, that the Indian media is now declaring to have been killed in a supposed dogfight. The picture was taken a few days ago at Montgomery, Alabama. He's currently attending a course at Maxwell AFB.

My background.....I did some FTE (as an engineer) time on Vipers. My dad is a Viper driver from Pakistan AF originally, hence I've been born in the air force community. PM me if you want more info.

Cheers !!!


Many claims on all sides. So, I am sure you can see why many are somewhat skeptical. Especially, considering most have proven to be false!

In addition most here only want the truth. So, it's not about siding with Pakistan or India.

Respectfully

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 05:05
by knuckles
Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
I don't know Wing Commander Varhaman. Never heard of that name. I posted a picture of the supposed dead Wing Commander Shahbaz Ali, that the Indian media is now declaring to have been killed in a supposed dogfight. The picture was taken a few days ago at Montgomery, Alabama. He's currently attending a course at Maxwell AFB.

My background.....I did some FTE (as an engineer) time on Vipers. My dad is a Viper driver from Pakistan AF originally, hence I've been born in the air force community. PM me if you want more info.

Cheers !!!


Many claims on all sides. So, I am sure you can see why many are somewhat skeptical. Especially, considering most have proven to be false!

In addition most here only want the truth. So, it's not about siding with Pakistan or India.

Respectfully

Respectfully agreed. I want the truth no more or less than you do or anybody else on this forum. Please don't you mistake me about siding with who and who.

And interesting link you posted some posts back with No.19 squadron. My old man flew F-7s (MiG-21s) as an IP with that squadron back in late 1990s and was the flight commander of that squadron. Here is one of him a few years before that time in a Viper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FGQueERKlg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 05:55
by vm
knuckles wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
I don't know Wing Commander Varhaman. Never heard of that name. I posted a picture of the supposed dead Wing Commander Shahbaz Ali, that the Indian media is now declaring to have been killed in a supposed dogfight. The picture was taken a few days ago at Montgomery, Alabama. He's currently attending a course at Maxwell AFB.

My background.....I did some FTE (as an engineer) time on Vipers. My dad is a Viper driver from Pakistan AF originally, hence I've been born in the air force community. PM me if you want more info.

Cheers !!!


Many claims on all sides. So, I am sure you can see why many are somewhat skeptical. Especially, considering most have proven to be false!

In addition most here only want the truth. So, it's not about siding with Pakistan or India.

Respectfully

Respectfully agreed. I want the truth no more or less than you do or anybody else on this forum. Please don't you mistake me about siding with who and who.

And interesting link you posted some posts back with No.19 squadron. My old man flew F-7s (MiG-21s) as an IP with that squadron back in late 1990s and was the flight commander of that squadron. Here is one of him a few years before that time in a Viper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FGQueERKlg

Nice. Could you discuss with him why the pak army didn't open the madrassa to media till date to negate the Indian version of hitting the JEM madrassa.? Its such a easy thing to do. Give the international and domestic media access to the compound and prove the Indians wrong. Its been 2 weeks. And why is the pak army even controlling access to a madrassa.?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 06:06
by knuckles
vm wrote:Nice. Could you discuss with him why the pak army didn't open the madrassa to media till date to negate the Indian version of hitting the JEM madrassa.? Its such a easy thing to do. Give the international and domestic media access to the compound and prove the Indians wrong. Its been 2 weeks. And why is the pak army even controlling access to a madrassa.?

I believe this post is more politically affiliated. That is out of my area of interest and I do not want to fill this particular thread up with content I do not know on what is currently happening in between Pakistan and India lately. There are too many grey areas.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 07:51
by Corsair1963
Clearly, the majority just want to know what "really" happen....


Yet, beginning to doubt we will ever really know???

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 09:03
by mair
Speaking of the ‘truth’ I would just like to state that it’s factually incorrect for those who are stating that India carried out the Balakot air strikes ‘in retaliation’ for the pulwama terror attack.
https://www.google.com./amp/s/www.bbc.c ... a-47366718

The Indian foreign secretary Vijay Gokhale categorically said the air strikes were preemptive, and NOT retaliatory. That they supposedly had credible intelligence that JeM was planning another major suicide attack in India thus this action became necessary. It was to stop another imminent future attack , and not revenge for pulwama that these air strikes were carried out.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 11:21
by weasel1962
Well, looking at the some Indian narrative, it can be summarised as follows:

(a) The Indians flattened every single building they bombed (the buildings may have been wooden with long stems and green roofs).
(b) The IAF bombed because they had info that every monkey terrorists that even intended to target India was in those buildings. It is possible they even bombed the surrounding trees just in case the monkeys climbed them.
(c) The IAF fought the entire Pakisani air force comprising F-16s, Mirages and more F-16 (JF017s)s thereafter
(d) The IAF fought with just one mig-21. The Sukhois were too far away and not required.
(e) They managed to shoot down half the PAF, noting several pilot names, parachutes and even sight the pilot's fathers.
(f) Unfortunately the mig-21 crashed like all the other 500 mig-21s before it. But not after dodging 100 AMRAAMs and countless other F-16 missiles known as the SD-10 using its EL-8222 jammer.
(g) Everything was recorded by the Netra AWACs. The AWACs is so powerful, it even managed to record pilot names, villagers names, hospital etc.
(h) The Indian pilot that crashed managed to dodge 10000 crazed bloodthirsty villagers that kill anyone in a Pakistani airmen's uniform. It was pure skill the pilot wasn't wearing that.
(i) He then survived 3 days of torture in Pakistani army. Torture included making him dress in a suit, forcing him to make a youtube movie, fly from one city to another and forced him to walk to the border to meet his parents.
(j) The Indians managed to force his release using pressure known as silence and "zoolander" stares.
(k) it has nothing to do with the upcoming elections.

The only thing missing in this Bollywood movie is the song and dance...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 15:05
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:
knuckles wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......


QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be


He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.


This is getting more bizarre by the moment..

And yes, Indian television did report very early on an SU-30MKI was lost. I watched it myself. It has apparently since been removed, and all traces of that "story" are gone. In its place are strong denials by India that they in fact lost one.

I'm absolutely certain of what I saw/heard, because I have a very keen interest in the Flanker and all its variants. This would have been only the 2nd time it's seen combat, putting up a great showing in North Africa vs. Mig-29's. Well, great at least insofar as the final result. Every R-27 launched (I think by both sides) missed, with the final kills coming with R-73's..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 18:38
by invictus
Corsair1963 wrote:Found this on FB.......


QUOTE:
Wing Co.Abhinandan Varthaman shot down an F-16 flown by Wing Co.Hyder Shahbaz Ali , the CO of PAF's 19th Sqn "Sherdils".This is the pilot mistaken to be a Sikh by the mob at Horran Kotla in PoK and lynched."Shahzaz" was actually "Shahbaz"

link : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpg0ULK ... e=youtu.be


Am not the least bothered about which side did what but still to me it would be utterly silly of Pakistan Airforce to use a non-bvr capable version of the F.16 in a high threat environment like Kashmir.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 19:00
by disconnectedradical
mixelflick wrote:This is getting more bizarre by the moment..

And yes, Indian television did report very early on an SU-30MKI was lost. I watched it myself. It has apparently since been removed, and all traces of that "story" are gone. In its place are strong denials by India that they in fact lost one.

I'm absolutely certain of what I saw/heard, because I have a very keen interest in the Flanker and all its variants. This would have been only the 2nd time it's seen combat, putting up a great showing in North Africa vs. Mig-29's. Well, great at least insofar as the final result. Every R-27 launched (I think by both sides) missed, with the final kills coming with R-73's..


There is as much evidence of Su-30MKI shot down as there is for F-16 shot down, which is none. If you want to believe Indian media on Su-30MKI downing but not F-16 downing? That's selective listening.

Stop trying to push what you wish to be true as fact.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 23:13
by vilters
Facts
- One 120 plate with no burn marks and clear serial number
- One Mig 21
- One capture pilot

All the rest is media bla-bla-bla- (including forums)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 08:20
by invictus
[quote="vilters"]Facts
- One 120 plate with no burn marks and clear serial number
- One Mig 21
- One capture pilot

All the rest is media bla-bla-bla-

Well said.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 10:08
by tomcooper
knuckles wrote:He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.
So, half the PAF is in the USA, celebrating parties all the way...?

I believe this post is more politically affiliated.
Free along von Clausewitz's 'War is continuation of politics by other means': sure it is 'politically affiliated' - because what militaries usually do has 'something to do politics', you know.

That is out of my area of interest...
Well, perhaps it's about the time for the Pakistanis like you to conclude it might be of their interest to find out what is their government doing? It might help you be less surprised next time the Indians bomb something 80km+ inside Pakistan.

Overall, sorry: not impressed.

weasel1962 wrote:Well, looking at the some Indian narrative, it can be summarised as follows:

(a) The Indians flattened every single building they bombed (the buildings may have been wooden with long stems and green roofs).
Nobody said 'flattened', and it's well-known that buildings in question are based on massive concrete pillars (thanks to older GE photos).

The most authoritative photo that meanwhile emerged it showing buildings still standing where they are: one can see traces of fire around windows, though.

(b) The IAF bombed because they had info that every monkey terrorists that even intended to target India was in those buildings. It is possible they even bombed the surrounding trees just in case the monkeys climbed them.
The CIA, USAF, USN etc. are UAV-ing groups of 1-4 terrorists all over the world since 20 years. Shall I post you a few links about all the 'successes' from places like Waziristan (Pakistan), Yemen etc.? In north-western Idlib, in Syria, two years ago, a CIA-operated UCAV blasted a mosque stuffed full of 200+ sleeping civilians. I'll not even go into what was the US air power doing around north-eastern Syria - see Raqqa and similar places - the last two years; it's so despicable even French military officers began complaining. But, you're complaining that few of Indian bombs - apparently - missed and hit trees?

(c) The IAF fought the entire Pakisani air force comprising F-16s, Mirages and more F-16 (JF017s)s thereafter
(d) The IAF fought with just one mig-21. The Sukhois were too far away and not required.
(e) They managed to shoot down half the PAF, noting several pilot names, parachutes and even sight the pilot's fathers.
When did official Delhi said anything of that?

Ah, you're another troll. OK, no problem.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 12:10
by botsing
tomcooper wrote:
(c) The IAF fought the entire Pakisani air force comprising F-16s, Mirages and more F-16 (JF017s)s thereafter
(d) The IAF fought with just one mig-21. The Sukhois were too far away and not required.
(e) They managed to shoot down half the PAF, noting several pilot names, parachutes and even sight the pilot's fathers.
When did official Delhi said anything of that?

Ah, you're another troll. OK, no problem.

As far as I read it, that whole post of weasel1962 was pure sarcasm due to all the trolling in this thread.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 12:17
by madrat
Tom-

Drink some coffee and enjoy a piece of fruit. Your sarcasm meter needs recharged.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 13:54
by mixelflick
disconnectedradical wrote:
mixelflick wrote:This is getting more bizarre by the moment..

And yes, Indian television did report very early on an SU-30MKI was lost. I watched it myself. It has apparently since been removed, and all traces of that "story" are gone. In its place are strong denials by India that they in fact lost one.

I'm absolutely certain of what I saw/heard, because I have a very keen interest in the Flanker and all its variants. This would have been only the 2nd time it's seen combat, putting up a great showing in North Africa vs. Mig-29's. Well, great at least insofar as the final result. Every R-27 launched (I think by both sides) missed, with the final kills coming with R-73's..


There is as much evidence of Su-30MKI shot down as there is for F-16 shot down, which is none. If you want to believe Indian media on Su-30MKI downing but not F-16 downing? That's selective listening.

Stop trying to push what you wish to be true as fact.


OK, tell you what...

I'll agree no SU-30MKI shootdown until its proven. Same with F-16.

Someone is lying, although I suppose it's possible both are fiction. In which case, India still comes out on the losing end of known, downed combat aircraft (Mig-21) and its pilot. If it never comes out as to what's true, the best indicator might be India opting/not opting for the F-16IM/F-21.

For the record, I think they will and the F-21 will go on to have a distinguished career in Indian service. The fact they're going to let India build it/technology transfer will be what seals it. Getting their hands on an incredibly advanced engine will be too much to pass up, as engines are the bane of their SU-30MKI's existence. I'm not saying they'll stick it in their SU-30MKI's, but maybe Tejas? Might be too big for that airframe though..

Going to be hell on earth if F-21's battle PAK F-16's. Likelihood of fratricide is going to be at its apex...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 14 Mar 2019, 22:14
by disconnectedradical
Only thing we know now is MiG-21 shot down, AIM-120 wreckage found which means F-16 was probably used by Pakistan. Everything else is speculation.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 01:40
by knuckles
tomcooper wrote:
knuckles wrote:He's alive. Currently at Maxwell AFB, was seen at a dinner party about 3 days ago.
So, half the PAF is in the USA, celebrating parties all the way...?

I believe this post is more politically affiliated.
Free along von Clausewitz's 'War is continuation of politics by other means': sure it is 'politically affiliated' - because what militaries usually do has 'something to do politics', you know.

That is out of my area of interest...
Well, perhaps it's about the time for the Pakistanis like you to conclude it might be of their interest to find out what is their government doing? It might help you be less surprised next time the Indians bomb something 80km+ inside Pakistan.

Overall, sorry: not impressed.

weasel1962 wrote:Well, looking at the some Indian narrative, it can be summarised as follows:

(a) The Indians flattened every single building they bombed (the buildings may have been wooden with long stems and green roofs).
Nobody said 'flattened', and it's well-known that buildings in question are based on massive concrete pillars (thanks to older GE photos).

The most authoritative photo that meanwhile emerged it showing buildings still standing where they are: one can see traces of fire around windows, though.

(b) The IAF bombed because they had info that every monkey terrorists that even intended to target India was in those buildings. It is possible they even bombed the surrounding trees just in case the monkeys climbed them.
The CIA, USAF, USN etc. are UAV-ing groups of 1-4 terrorists all over the world since 20 years. Shall I post you a few links about all the 'successes' from places like Waziristan (Pakistan), Yemen etc.? In north-western Idlib, in Syria, two years ago, a CIA-operated UCAV blasted a mosque stuffed full of 200+ sleeping civilians. I'll not even go into what was the US air power doing around north-eastern Syria - see Raqqa and similar places - the last two years; it's so despicable even French military officers began complaining. But, you're complaining that few of Indian bombs - apparently - missed and hit trees?

(c) The IAF fought the entire Pakisani air force comprising F-16s, Mirages and more F-16 (JF017s)s thereafter
(d) The IAF fought with just one mig-21. The Sukhois were too far away and not required.
(e) They managed to shoot down half the PAF, noting several pilot names, parachutes and even sight the pilot's fathers.
When did official Delhi said anything of that?

Ah, you're another troll. OK, no problem.

Not celebrating parties Cooper. It was a dinner for all air force officers of visiting nations. I don't know if you were trying to joke around or insult. But rest assured, half of them are not there as per your assumption. You are a writer....behave like one. I enjoyed your work on the Iranian Tomcat units.

Cheers !!!

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 15 Mar 2019, 14:00
by mixelflick
I really enjoyed Tom's Iranian Tomcat Units In Action too.. until someone told me here most of it had been discounted!

So hard to get to the truth in war. I think it's pretty clear though Iranian F-14's performed well, in some cases brilliantly. They were a lot more successful with it than the US Navy, albeit circumstances were different too. Still strikes me as odd this big carrier based fighter did so well in the sands of the Middle East.

I often wondered how a land based F-14 would have looked like/performed without all that extra carrier weight. Conservatively speaking, I think she would have weighed at least 5,000lbs lighter, with a corresponding improvement in thrust to weight ratio. I do think it was the right plane at the right time for Iran. F-15's could have probably done the job but didn't carry as much gas, nor the Phoenix which for its day was a fantastic weapon.

But even with all that, Iran lost a few to Mirage F1's I think, and maybe a Mig-21. Just goes to show no aircraft is invincible, so reports of an F-16 or SU-30MKI downed are at least plausible. Without any wreckage/footage though, we'll probably never know..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 09:43
by tomcooper
botsing wrote:
tomcooper wrote:As far as I read it, that whole post of weasel1962 was pure sarcasm due to all the trolling in this thread.
Well, I like sacrasm, and it simply didn't came over that way.

knuckles wrote:I don't know if you were trying to joke around or insult. But rest assured, half of them are not there as per your assumption.
'Per what assumption' - of mine?

Where did I say anything like 'this pilot was there' or 'the other one was'?

Are we now going to discuss your fantasies?

You are a writer...
You're a 'writer'.

I'm a researcher. That's two different things.

mixelflick wrote:I really enjoyed Tom's Iranian Tomcat Units In Action too.. until someone told me here most of it had been discounted!
What has been discounted?

But even with all that, Iran lost a few to Mirage F1's I think...
Do you 'think' - or are you sure? If you're not sure, i.e. think, then how do you want to know?

By more of guessing...?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 14:56
by mixelflick
Well, when I posted here how much I enjoyed reading about Iranian Tomcat/Phoenix kills, someone chimed in and said most of it had been proven false? For the record, I thought you did a fantastic job documenting things, at least as best you could.

I'll have to go back and look for it. It may have been my mention of Foxbat kills by the Phoenix. Personally, I believe most of what the Iranians had to say. Regardless of some air to air outcomes, I found it a fascinating look/lesson in history. How often has a US Navy fighter (state of the art for the time) been exported to ANY country, fought in a 10 year war (against no small amount of Russian/French fighters) and put up such a good showing?

One thing I can't figure out is their opinion of the TF-30's, and why they haven't tried replacing them with something more powerful. On the one hand, I want to say they got the "improved" TF-30 and problems were in a word, manageable. On the other hand, any TF-30 is going to result in it being under-powered. I understand it may be lack of knowledge (or money), but for my $ priority #1 on those birds would be finding GE-F-110's. They apparently were successful in sourcing spare parts to keep them flying, and there's no shortage of F-110's and F-100's around the world. Greasing the palm of someone in Pakistan to get a hold of 1 or 2 F-100's that power their vipers wouldn't seem impossible. Maybe not, I dunno.

They also seem to have developed a Phoenix analogue, or at least I've seen them flying with one. Who knows. Maybe it's all smoke and mirrors. It's clear though they can't buy Flankers or any other high performance fighters due to sanctions, so prioritizing F-14 upgrades would seem important. 30 years after they were delivered, they're still a force to be reckoned with. Perhaps not by the USN or USAF, but neighboring countries for sure. Israel would eventually prevail, but to dismiss the F-14 out of hand would be a mistake IMO.

It's just such a capable and iconic aircraft, even all these years later ... :)

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 15:31
by botsing
mixelflick wrote:Well, when I posted here how much I enjoyed reading about Iranian Tomcat/Phoenix kills, someone chimed in and said most of it had been proven false? For the record, I thought you did a fantastic job documenting things, at least as best you could.

So let me get this straight:

Just because some dude on the internet told you, you simply and directly stopped taking in carefully collected information and then started basing your opinion on that same dude from the internet?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 16:39
by tomcooper
mixelflick wrote:Well, when I posted here how much I enjoyed reading about Iranian Tomcat/Phoenix kills, someone chimed in and said most of it had been proven false? For the record, I thought you did a fantastic job documenting things, at least as best you could.


This is a link to the Study titled Trends in Air-to-Air Combat (PDF), prepared by John Stillion from the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, in the US.

Check the page 14, to inform yourself about the methodology of the people involved. It starts as follows:

CSBA compiled a database of all confirmed aerial victories from 1965 through 2013. The primary source for the database is regional and national databases maintained by the Air Combat Information Group (ACIG). Where possible, the ACIG air combat victories were crosschecked with official sources such as Project Red Baron accounts of U.S. victories and losses in Vietnam. The database contains information on 1,467 confirmed victories over fixed-wing combat aircraft. In addition to the date and nationality of the victor, all database entries include information on the type of aircraft claimed shot down and the type of weapon used (e.g., AIM-9, AA-2 Atoll, gun). In many cases the name of the victorious pilot and his unit are available. In some cases, ACIG has been able to cross-reference claims with officially admitted losses and provide the victim aircraft pilot’s name and/or aircraft tail number. The database contains victory claims for pilots from the United States, Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, the United Kingdom, Argentina, Venezuela, and Ecuador in achieving confirmed air-to-air victories.


...which, eventually, is the bare essence of the reason why am I researching aerial warfare since 1945 at all.

(For those who might now know it: I used to run the ACIG.org website from 1999 until 2017; I'm still running the ACIG.info forum, yes, also since 1999. And, no: I was not involved in preparing that study. The CSBA-people simply used what used to be posted on the ACIG.org website.)

Here's a video of the presentation of that study at the US Air Force Association's Mitchel Institute for Aerospace Studies. Please, listen carefully at around minute 21:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmGRn7GirS0

In acknowledgment of my research on the operational history of Iranian F-14s, the USN invited me to the Tomcat Sunset ceremony (official withdrawal from service ceremony for the F-14 Tomcat), and the following symposium with same title (where I was the only foreigner around), held at NAS Oceana, back in September 2006.

By side my books and articles about most diverse wars fought around the globe, but I think I can be proud of being contracted by nobody less than the Austrian MOD to provide continuous coverage of the war in Syria, for much of the last two years, too.

Now, please tell me - mixelflick or any other of you here, but especially those having any kind of traces of doubts about my credibility, thinking I'm biased towards one or the other party, or anything else of that kind: what can you offer in support of your own ability to express any kind of doubts about my work? ....or for even having doubts about my credibility?

Anonymous sources from the internet?

...or hear-say from your neighbor's best friend's brother's aunt of the father-in-law....?

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 18:58
by knuckles
tomcooper wrote:
botsing wrote:
tomcooper wrote:As far as I read it, that whole post of weasel1962 was pure sarcasm due to all the trolling in this thread.
Well, I like sacrasm, and it simply didn't came over that way.

knuckles wrote:I don't know if you were trying to joke around or insult. But rest assured, half of them are not there as per your assumption.
'Per what assumption' - of mine?

Where did I say anything like 'this pilot was there' or 'the other one was'?

Are we now going to discuss your fantasies?

You are a writer...
You're a 'writer'.

I'm a researcher. That's two different things.

mixelflick wrote:I really enjoyed Tom's Iranian Tomcat Units In Action too.. until someone told me here most of it had been discounted!
What has been discounted?

But even with all that, Iran lost a few to Mirage F1's I think...
Do you 'think' - or are you sure? If you're not sure, i.e. think, then how do you want to know?

By more of guessing...?

Behave. We are not going to discuss my fantasies. The pilot I told you is alive and well.

Regards

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 22:26
by tomcooper
knuckles wrote:Behave.
Ah, behave yourself - especially at all the gala dinners the PAF is celebrating around the USA, while protecting jihadists at home.

...the next on the igno list...

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 16 Mar 2019, 23:07
by knuckles
tomcooper wrote:
knuckles wrote:Behave.
Ah, behave yourself - especially at all the gala dinners the PAF is celebrating around the USA, while protecting jihadists at home.

...the next on the igno list...

PM me if you want more info. There is no protecting of jihadists there. The gala dinner were hosted by USAF.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 11:36
by madrat
Tom gets confidential information and goes on his gut instincts. He doesn't either believe you over his source or doesn't particularly care for multiple reasons. He's a researcher and not a reporter. He has to run with bias or he is cut off of information. And sometimes he just doesn't like people. Either way, I don't think he will return to this thread.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 14:00
by mixelflick
botsing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, when I posted here how much I enjoyed reading about Iranian Tomcat/Phoenix kills, someone chimed in and said most of it had been proven false? For the record, I thought you did a fantastic job documenting things, at least as best you could.

So let me get this straight:

Just because some dude on the internet told you, you simply and directly stopped taking in carefully collected information and then started basing your opinion on that same dude from the internet?


No, but it did give me pause to consider the other side of the issue.

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 14:08
by mixelflick
tomcooper wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Well, when I posted here how much I enjoyed reading about Iranian Tomcat/Phoenix kills, someone chimed in and said most of it had been proven false? For the record, I thought you did a fantastic job documenting things, at least as best you could.


This is a link to the Study titled Trends in Air-to-Air Combat (PDF), prepared by John Stillion from the Center for Strategic and Budgetary Assessments, in the US.

Check the page 14, to inform yourself about the methodology of the people involved. It starts as follows:

CSBA compiled a database of all confirmed aerial victories from 1965 through 2013. The primary source for the database is regional and national databases maintained by the Air Combat Information Group (ACIG). Where possible, the ACIG air combat victories were crosschecked with official sources such as Project Red Baron accounts of U.S. victories and losses in Vietnam. The database contains information on 1,467 confirmed victories over fixed-wing combat aircraft. In addition to the date and nationality of the victor, all database entries include information on the type of aircraft claimed shot down and the type of weapon used (e.g., AIM-9, AA-2 Atoll, gun). In many cases the name of the victorious pilot and his unit are available. In some cases, ACIG has been able to cross-reference claims with officially admitted losses and provide the victim aircraft pilot’s name and/or aircraft tail number. The database contains victory claims for pilots from the United States, Vietnam, India, Pakistan, Israel, Egypt, Jordon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, the United Kingdom, Argentina, Venezuela, and Ecuador in achieving confirmed air-to-air victories.


...which, eventually, is the bare essence of the reason why am I researching aerial warfare since 1945 at all.

(For those who might now know it: I used to run the ACIG.org website from 1999 until 2017; I'm still running the ACIG.info forum, yes, also since 1999. And, no: I was not involved in preparing that study. The CSBA-people simply used what used to be posted on the ACIG.org website.)

Here's a video of the presentation of that study at the US Air Force Association's Mitchel Institute for Aerospace Studies. Please, listen carefully at around minute 21:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmGRn7GirS0

In acknowledgment of my research on the operational history of Iranian F-14s, the USN invited me to the Tomcat Sunset ceremony (official withdrawal from service ceremony for the F-14 Tomcat), and the following symposium with same title (where I was the only foreigner around), held at NAS Oceana, back in September 2006.

By side my books and articles about most diverse wars fought around the globe, but I think I can be proud of being contracted by nobody less than the Austrian MOD to provide continuous coverage of the war in Syria, for much of the last two years, too.

Now, please tell me - mixelflick or any other of you here, but especially those having any kind of traces of doubts about my credibility, thinking I'm biased towards one or the other party, or anything else of that kind: what can you offer in support of your own ability to express any kind of doubts about my work? ....or for even having doubts about my credibility?

Anonymous sources from the internet?

...or hear-say from your neighbor's best friend's brother's aunt of the father-in-law....?


Relax Tom. I didn't question your credibility, nothing of the sort.

In fact, I stated I believe your claims and noted that you did a good job documenting such to the best extent possible, did I not? People here love to extrapolate and assume what others are thinking. These people need to chill out. Nobody here is a mind reader..

Many thanks for the links. I found them most informative..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 17 Mar 2019, 20:40
by marsavian
India, Pakistan threatened to unleash missiles at each other: sources

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-indi ... SKCN1QY03T

The sparring between India and Pakistan last month threatened to spiral out of control and only interventions by U.S. officials, including National Security Advisor John Bolton, headed off a bigger conflict, five sources familiar with the events said.

At one stage, India threatened to fire at least six missiles at Pakistan, and Islamabad said it would respond with its own missile strikes “three times over”, according to Western diplomats and government sources in New Delhi, Islamabad and Washington.

The way in which tensions suddenly worsened and threatened to trigger a war between the nuclear-armed nations shows how the Kashmir region, which both claim and is at the core of their enmity, remains one of the world’s most dangerous flashpoints.

The exchanges did not get beyond threats, and there was no suggestion that the missiles involved were anything more than conventional weapons, but they created consternation in official circles in Washington, Beijing and London ....

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 13:37
by mixelflick
Are PAK or Indian missiles of this sort road mobile?

I'm not aware that either country has F-15E like strike aircraft designed to hunt these types of missiles. Just basic air to ground strike fighters. Hopefully, India's Rafale's will have some capability in this regard. Not sure if PAK has anything in the hopper like it.

Would get ugly fast. Glad it didn't happen..

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 19:29
by basher54321
Social Media has been getting in a twiz over this recent photo supposedly from the crashed MiG-21Bison showing R-73 and R-77 variants - not easy to confirm the source though unfortunately.


R-73 and R-77.jpg

Re: Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

Unread postPosted: 18 Mar 2019, 20:36
by Shimud
mixelflick wrote:Are PAK or Indian missiles of this sort road mobile?

I'm not aware that either country has F-15E like strike aircraft designed to hunt these types of missiles. Just basic air to ground strike fighters. Hopefully, India's Rafale's will have some capability in this regard. Not sure if PAK has anything in the hopper like it.

Would get ugly fast. Glad it didn't happen..


India's longest range ICBM Agni V can be carried on a road mobile vehicle. I guess they call it transport and tilting vehicle.
Pakistan's longest range ICBM is launched using a TEL, implies road mobile.

A conflict between two can get ugly in a short time.
Today, I was reading an article by Reuters, where in between the lines, it was evident that even during these testing times, the intelligence agencies of two were in constant contact with each other. I think it helped in extinguishing the fire.

I still firmly believe that this whole episode was staged by the BJP government in India, to gain votes, before general elections. Check their campaign posters and banners. They are clearly exploiting the political and religious sentiments.