Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

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botsing

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Unread post10 Mar 2019, 13:52

gideonic wrote:Why isn't this thread locked?

Anyone here (with an account registered, you know, before the incident took place) really interested in the fake "discussion" between the two newbie troll-factory'ish accounts?

This is the only thread they are posting anything in and their agenda is stupidly obvious ...

^ This indeed.

There is nothing interesting about these propaganda trolls polluting the forum, if you like things like that then simply watch their mainstream news.

You will never get any useful information out of them.
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Unread post10 Mar 2019, 14:07

laos wrote:I have a question for the Indian participants of this thread. How the Indian Armed Forces deal with that fact that 15% of India's population are Muslims ? How many of them support Pakistan ? Can Muslims normally serve in the armed forces?

They can but are underrepresented due to obvious reasons.
As a hindu I can't really speak for how Muslims in India feel about Pakistan as many have blood relations in Pakistan. Many prominent Muslims are sympathetic to Pakistan during times of tension eg Mumbai attack, which creates tension.
Jinnah the father figure of Pakistan had one kid in 1947 at independence who chose to stay back in India. Her grandson owns one of indias largest airlines now. Wadia group.
Similarly in the Indian Western sector facing Pakistan, the general Corp commander was a Muslim some years back.
India has had 3 or 4 Muslim presidents.
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Unread post10 Mar 2019, 15:54

So India is getting Meteor? I assume on their 36 or so Rafale's.

If that's the case, I'd expect them to be pressed into the air to air role and based on the recent skirmish, sooner rather than later. This will put the SU-30MKI into an interesting position. Still their primary air to air machine, but I'm betting it'll be 2nd day of war, after the Rafale's clean house with their Meteor's.

Rafale will bring a whole new level of capability to the Indian air force. Probably the smallest RCS of the bunch, better radar E/W and weapons. And it's no slouch in the dogfight arena. I realize they're being purchased for their "swing role" capabilities, but with a pedigree like that something tells me they'll be used first and foremost to establish air superiority.

Theoretically, the SU-30MKI is superior to the F-16. But late model Vipers with AMRAAM's are more than a match, certainly way too close to parity with the MKI - too close for comfort. If it was me, I'd have Rafale's front and center, as they hold a distinct advantage over even late model PAK Vipers IMO. I would even argue they're superior to the F-16IN, or F-21 if that catches on.

For their part, PAK is at a crossroads. They won't be getting the F-35 anytime soon, and the US really doesn't have a platform significantly more capable than late model F-16's. Perhaps they'll buy the F-15X, LOL. It's RCS is huge, but the killer AESA and AIM-120D would be an interesting counter to the Rafale/Meteor. Likely it too though, wouldn't be for sale to them.

For that reason (and others), India is poised to leapfrog the PAK air force in the years to come. I hope they get their acquisition model in order, lest they wind up like Canada. Was about to say "or worse", but nothing comes to mind.. :)
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Unread post10 Mar 2019, 16:31

I doubt the US will be selling a whole bunch more stuff to Pakistan any time soon. Relations have been fairly strained lately. The US-Pakistan relationship is mostly one of necessity (mainly due to Afghanistan) and there is a lot of mutual distrust. Pakistan does have very good relations with China and China sees them as a counterweight to India. Probably the Pakistanis will buy whatever advanced fighters China will sell them...perhaps the J-31 or even the J-20? That should give them a pretty potent force.

Meanwhile, we (the US) now see India as a counterweight to China. Especially with what’s going on the South China Sea, I think our government will want to help out China’s regional rivals including India, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Vietnam and the Philippines. India has been buying a lot more US stuff lately such as the P-8 Poseidon and C-17s. They also bought some nuclear reactors. But there is also some unpleasant history between the US and India so I’m not sure India will pull the trigger on an American jet or even that we’d offer them the most advanced stuff.

The Rafale is a good buy for India in the medium term. They like the Mirage and the Rafale is basically a next generation Mirage with two engines. But it’s also very expensive and it won’t get them into the stealth game. They might be interested in the F-21 since they are interested in manufacturing it domestically.

Pakistan actually has a realistic pathway into the stealth game through China. India doesn’t seem to right now because the Su-57/PAK FA/FGFA looks like it’s shaping up to be a flop. If relations continue to improve with the US, they might be offered the F-35 at some point in the future.
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 01:09

I did not know this thread will have ballooned so much since the last time I posted a few days ago. I respect the old members and their assertion that its now a troll thread with punches from both sides.

- Someone claimed the shot down Indian pilot said he shot down a F-16. I haven't been able to find one statement from the pilot post his release back to India let alone his statement about downing the F-16. If someone has been able to find a statement (from credible/official sources), please educate me. Others have posted that his last radio call was that he had locked onto an F16 with a R73 missile. Yes, I envy you dearly as you're privy to radio calls of a downed Indian pilot when the pilot himself is being closely guarded and not being allowed to appear on media to protect him and everyone else that could be effected by his statements.

Here are some of the rumors going about actions taken by both India and Pakistan.

- Indian rumors said they neutralized 200-350 terrorists. The only information in this regard was from Ministry of External affairs which said 'many terrorists' were neutralized. That also has proven to be unsubstantiated and they have cited using cell phone information to having seeing cars and some media reported mass graves nearby.

- Some reports say India used 4 Mirage 2000 aircraft while others say they used 12. Most seem to agree they used 1000KG Israeli SPICE stand-off weapons though. How the hell can people make these claims. I bet they're professionals who were involved in this and didn't leak this out to facebook warriors like some of us here.

- Some reports say Indian planes crossed into Pakistan but I wonder why risk crossing when you know you have to drop stand-off weapons. If planners asked the pilots to do this, and they were trying to troll Pakistanis, they weren't very peace loving and something like this shouldn't really be looked up to as heroic. That was a half calculated risk considering dark of the night and a scarcely defended area but the risk from the same airforce pilot backfired when he crossed over a day later chasing a Pakistani plane. So anyone thinking the troll value of this is high is not being smart.

- Some reports say Pakistan used 24 planes in its strike package while they count 12 (four F16, four JF17, 4 Mirages). Such a cute easy addition for someone like me with poor math. I like whoever you are. Maybe the rest of the 12 planes were Mig 21 copies J7 that Pakistan has aplenty.

- Sympathizers of India cite Pakistani official statements about multiple pilot which are something to be considered. But if Pakistan is to be believed, then why not believe it when it says it shot down 2 planes.

- They also cite AMRAAM as evidence that Pakistan used F16s in violation of their terms with USA and point out to Pakistani spokesman's lies when he said F16s weren't used in the operation. My points

i - You should expect the unexpected in a school fight, let alone a proper battle with a nuclear armed neighbor. Really, you want to use this as an excuse. Well the other kid had a stick, the other boxer had better gloves, the other guy had a better car so I lost. Sorry!

ii - Pakistan would've been extremely careful about the use of F16s and probably had them flying parallel to the boundaries on their side to ensure India doesn't bring one down in its territory. They succeeded in doing that.

iii - US sold Pakistan 500 AMRAAMs to fight terrorism and use them for self-defense. What country's airforce threatens Pakistan other than India. Pakistan last used F16s against any country other than India in the 1980s when it shot down Soviet planes. Whoever thought Pakistan wouldn't use AMRAAMs on its planes in a fight with India need not be this naive and need to wake up from their 30 year slumber.

iv - Again, if rumors are to be trusted, which we shouldn't, at least one of the 2 pilots they credit is a veteran on F16 so Pakistan isn't trying to hide it much. Indian senior generals parading shrapnel of an AMRAAM with serials intact in their first official press briefing was downright uncalled for.

- Another rumor on Indian media was that Pakistanis lynched their own pilot. Yes, India shot down the F16 and Pakistanis lynched their own pilot because? They caught the Indian pilot alive and killed their own. You can live in fool's paradise whoever spread this rumor and whoever believed it. You know another verified account. The Indian pilot asked where he was, the people there said you're in India to which he chanted 'Jai Hind' or 'long live India' ... and someone chanted 'long live Pakistan' to troll him. The pilot ran away and was chased down again and caught. That villager whoever said you're in India just to identify him was the ultimate troll.

On the other side.

i - Pakistanis have claimed this particular AMRAAM was sold to Taiwan which has proven false as highlighted by previous posters citing Taiwanese sources.
ii - Pakistanis have shown videos of a pilot down who apparently fell due to a mid air collision in an Indian air show a couple of weeks before this entire saga.
iii - Even if an F16 is shot, your cousin's uncle's nephew's brother in the squadron won't tell you that. They would have a death wish to leak out such information.
iv - Pakistanis did claim shooting down 2 planes and 3 pilots and only found 1 pilot. The first statement did say, 1 pilot captured, 2 in area. In the fog of war, you don't know such stuff but this isn't smart play on their part. Official spokesmen should first confirm stuff and that was dumb.

For all these claims, posters online cite people they know who know people in the Airforce who know people involved in the operation. These weak linkages coupled with use of AF terminology like Squadrons and Rules of Engagement does not make for a credible claim. Some claims may prove true but don't hate people who don't trust you because any intelligent person is not supposed to believe hearsay or rumors. Don't be surprised or feel bad if you receive a shut up call from the veteran posters in the thread (I am a newbie btw).

Lastly, for those who are seeing holes in roofs through satellite images or are citing Pakistan's infamous history with regards to fundamentalism, well there are other forums to discuss that. Don't be too patriotic, read some neutral commentary on the whole series of events. It would've been great if we had kept the discussion to pure technicalities from both sides, but truth is, there isn't much confirmed information either way.

only sad positive, the Pakistanis and Indians seem to agree Pakistanis didn't shoot down the Mi 17 Helicopter so everyone can probably agree it was unfortunate demise of professionals in the plane who weren't directly involved in the fight on that day. Pilot's wife's interview was an eye opener. A sad reminder that this whole thing has no winners.
Last edited by jedijedi on 11 Mar 2019, 01:52, edited 3 times in total.
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 01:21

knuckles wrote:Vipers were used. No.9 squadron took part. JF-17s were used as well.

One Viper bagged a two-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Indian area. Fate of 2 pilots unknown.

One JF-17 bagged a single-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Pakistani area. That pilot was captured, rescued by the Pak Army from the local mob and then handed over a few days later back to India. Lucky his ejection was safe.

No Vipers were lost on Pakistan's side, no matter how much the Indian media claims it to be true.



Do you have a source or sources to support these claims???
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 02:00

I had shared this Reuter's post earlier where they state they have not been allowed to go into the seminary multiple times. Here is a picture they took from over 100m away.

The fireball type damage from Fuel type explosives is visible in the picture of the walls; as is the hole in the roof through one of the windows. Fireballs expand through open windows/doors and the damage is consistent with the type of weapon claimed.

D1PSLYtVYAAbeBg.jpg


And about OSINT. The 1st person on the spot SM videos from the scene of battle posted right after the incident are perhaps the truest representation you will get. I find them extremely valuable for the information they uncover, not the interpretation they may accompany then.

Every one can interpret them the way they want, but they are at least free of official spin and the deliberate fog of war.

I have shared enough SM media evidence that there were two planes hit (or at least one ejection followed by another missile explosion). The first plane was a 2 seater (you can hear two ejection booms) and also the ground witness. The contrails of the weapon leading to the 2nd explosion are also visible, and that video includes the remnants of the 1st plane.

It is not without the realm of possibility that the 1st plane was an IAF Su-30 since it is also a 2 seater. However given that this was inside Pakistani airspace, it is highly unlikely. The Su-30s edge lies in its huge radar and the weapon load where it can take multiple shots. More so given the battle situation that day, it is unlikely that the Su-30 which were the defending force would have gone so far up north or close to the LoC. They were operating further south and defending against the swarm.

The Mig21 however operating from the Srinagar on the ORP are much more likely to chase an adversary into within WVR range, especially since that is the region where military installations were hit. The Pakistani side has not produced a single "official photo" of the 2nd plane. If it had fallen into India I am pretty sure some video or pictures of reports would have hit the social media; it is almost impossible for something like that to happen and not surface with the population density there.
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 08:50

Really funny to see all the reaction from Pakistani trolls: free along the motto, rule No.1 is that Pakistan is always right, and if not, then see the rule No. 1...

mair wrote:That book is about Afghanistan.
I know that contextualising is strongly disliked by people in your position, but really: do you have to be that ignorant as to explain me I should stay on topic?

That book is about explaining that the ISI was the only party responsible for using all the US- and Saudi-supplied money, equipment and supplies to run the seven 'preferred' Afghan Mujahidden groups, at its own discretion.

That's the essence of what the ISI is doing in regards of about a dozen of diverse Jihadists groups over the last dozen of years, too - which in turn is the essence of the reason why India launched its air strike on the JEM terror camp (aka 'Madrassa') outside Balakot, in the night of 26 February 2019.

Attached below is a map of such camps published by the FDD Long War Journal, in turn based on the US Army Counterterrorist Centre. Would you like to deny that too?

It was the era of the Cold War...
But sure. And, what excuse does Pakistan have now for supporting jihadists?

...and pretend as if they all just magically dropped out of the sky and into Afghanistan and Pakistan.(both countries were actually secular in the 70s believe it or not)
Yes, until Pakistani military dictator Zia ul-Haq - a staunch Islamist - increased the support for jihadist gangs by several magnitudes (earlier Pakistani governments did the same, but never to similar extension).

Let’s assume that the Pakistani government really is complicit...
We need not assuming: the former Pakistani military dictator Musharaf has several times declared jihadists run by the ISI for something like 'national heroes' fighting in interests of Pakistan.

Why did India even bother to hand over the dossier to Pakistan just now then?
As you should actually know before trying to discuss a topic of this kind: India has provided one such a dossier to Islamabad - each full of evidence for Pakistani involvement in form of ISI's support for jihadist gangs - after every single terror attack on India of the last 20 years.

I've already posted a link to a full list of such cases, but you simply refuse to click on it and read it.

Not much point to it is there since they actively sponsor ‘jihad all over the globe’?(a statement that is actually true in reverse, I.e the whole world had actively sponsored Jihad in Pakistan’s north/northwest and Afghanistan in decades past).
Ah yes: the CIA/Mossad/al-Qaeda conspiracy... the favourite conspiracy theory between thousands of those circling Pakistan.

So, USA, Israel and India are conspiring against Pakistan; then the USA and Afghanistan are conspiring against Pakistan, and... please help me: who is conspiring together with Iran against Pakistan?

Do you realize, that your establishment and the ISI are running so many terrorist campaigns in neighbouring countries, that at one point in the last week, Pakistan was simultaneously shelled from two, and threatened from a third side too? Something like this:

- Indian Army (using US-made M755 howitzers calibre 155mm) was shelling Pakistan in response to Pakistan Army's shelling;
- US-supported Afghan Army was shelling Pakistan in response to Pakistani support for the Taliban
- Iran was moving military reinforcements to its border to south-western Pakistan (Baluchistan)...

...and all of this is a 'conspiracy', just not related to what Pakistan is doing?

A madrassah isn’t a terror camp.
Well, that's the problem with Pakistan: in theory, madrassas should be no terrorist camps. But, in practice - and then in Pakistan - the are. That's so because your country has used a host of madrassas to create the Taliban, to support al-Qaeda and - more recently - to support about a dozen of other jihadist gangs (see the map below). So, don't explain me what is a madrassa supposed to be: tell that to your lovely ISI and the establishment ordering the ISI to act that way.

It’s been 17 years that America has been in Afghanistan. The taliban are even stronger today.
Yes, they are. Thanks to Pakistan.

The Afghans do not like the Taliban: they know all too well what it is to live under them. Only Pakistan is supporting the Taliban, and only the USA are ignoring the Pakistani support for the Taliban (and other jihadist groups).

That's actually quite a simple situation - and the reason for the current Indo-Pakistani stand-off, including the IAF strike on a terror camp outside Balakot and the air combat from the morning of 27 February.

This is completely off topic but a necessary discussion...
Ah, now it's necessary? How interesting...
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 10:07

jedijedi wrote:- Someone claimed the shot down Indian pilot said he shot down a F-16. I haven't been able to find one statement from the pilot post his release back to India...
Neither was I.

Guess, there is going to be a 'statement for the press', once the IAF feels like doing it. Wouldn't exclude the possibility of them searching for additional evidence in support of what he's likely to support: serious investigations always take time, no matter where.

- Indian rumors said they neutralized 200-350 terrorists. The only information in this regard was from Ministry of External affairs which said 'many terrorists' were neutralized.
Correct: the former were claims by the Indian media, the latter the only official statement in this regards.

- Some reports say India used 4 Mirage 2000 aircraft while others say they used 12. Most seem to agree they used 1000KG Israeli SPICE stand-off weapons though. How the hell can people make these claims.
No idea. I've also got no clue why are people as insistent on the 'Spice-2000' version. Sure, it makes sense to claim it was a 'stand-off-PGM-strike', because that sounds 'sexy', but there are at least as serious (even though also 'unofficial') rumours the Mirages actually went all the way in, and bombed the place using 'dumb' HSLD-bombs.

I bet they're professionals who were involved in this and didn't leak this out to facebook warriors like some of us here.
One of most 'amazing performances' in the entire drama is precisely the behaviour of diverse 'professionals' in the social media. With exception of one Indian general, and a retired Indian Jaguar-pilot, all of them rather 'followed the gang' (i.e. the mass media ), than really posted something useful.

That said, particularly curious is making me the 'deafening silence' from the corner of ex-PAF people: except for one of them trying to explain me the C-in-C WAC IAF was supposedly 'fired' for diverse failures (the Air Marshal in question actually went into retirement on 28 February, exactly as planned already since November last year), haven't heard anything useful from them.

- Some reports say Indian planes crossed into Pakistan but I wonder why risk crossing when you know you have to drop stand-off weapons.
Terrain.

Check the terrain, i.e. check the map, try to imagine all the mountains there. Even loitering PGMs have massive problems with such terrain - and the IAF has no loitering PGMs in service.

...they weren't very peace loving...
...and US Army AH-64 crews are 'intentionally hunting and assassinating Reuters journos around Iraq', and then because they are 'very peace loving'?

Come on...

- Some reports say Pakistan used 24 planes in its strike package while they count 12 (four F16, four JF17, 4 Mirages). Such a cute easy addition for someone like me with poor math. I like whoever you are. Maybe the rest of the 12 planes were Mig 21 copies J7 that Pakistan has aplenty.
Here you might want to inform yourself properly.

- Sympathizers of India...
It 's not about 'sympathisers of India': it's about matters of facts.

On ACIG.info forum we've got a Pakistani who can't stop wondering why all of his compatriots visible on diverse videos from the place where the IAF MiG-21-pilot was collected by the Pakistani Army - either talk about two or three parachutes.

This is simply imposing plenty of questions - and then exactly the same question like about that JEM-run madrassa, bombed by the IAF. Foremost is: why? Why do they report multiple parachutes? And, where are all these parachutes? Even an empty parachute, or a breaking parachute shot away, must sometimes come down to the ground. Where are they? But foremost: why are there no videos of them after they came down to the ground? How comes there are so many reports about two-three parachutes and at least two pilots coming down inside the Pakistan-controlled-Kashmir - but all we get to see is one Indian pilot?

- They also cite AMRAAM as evidence that Pakistan used F16s in violation of their terms with USA and point out to Pakistani spokesman's lies when he said F16s weren't used in the operation.
Please help me now: is it really so that AIM-120C-5s became renowned for self-firing and then flying all the way from, say, Jordan, or Taiwan - only to crash inside India. Could it be 'C-5' stands for their actual range? Say, 50,000km or so?

Perhaps we should add AIM-120C-5s to the list of threatened migration species?

i - You should expect the unexpected in a school fight, let alone a proper battle with a nuclear armed neighbor. Really, you want to use this as an excuse. Well the other kid had a stick, the other boxer had better gloves, the other guy had a better car so I lost. Sorry!
Wrong. And then for multiple - and extremely important - reasons.

India and Pakistan have signed a number of non-attack treaties, including one in 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot BVRAAMs over the LOC (can't find an online reference for it right now), and - at least as important - another from 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot at each other's nuclear facilities.

If the PAF now fired multiple BVRAAMs at IAF aircraft north/north-east of the LOC separating Indian- from Pakistani-controlled parts of Jammu and Kashmir - and, except that AIM-120C-5 really 'migrated' to crash inside India from Jordan, Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Moon, Mars or anywhere else: it is clear that it was fired by a PAF F-16 - then all such treaties are null and void.

...which in turn means that henceforth the IAF is free to open fire at any PAF aircraft underway on the other side of the LOC.

THAT is VERY IMPORTANT. Even more so, because rumour has it that the IAF has 'adapted' its ROEs just a few hours after this clash. Which, yes, means: now it's the PAF that can be expected to be 'sorry'.

iii - US sold Pakistan 500 AMRAAMs to fight terrorism...
How do you 'fight terrorism' with AIM-120C-5s?

Has the ISI organized any new air force for one of jihadist gangs it's supporting?

The last I've heard the times of the Pakistan-supported 'Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Air Force' (aka, 'Taliban Air Foce' operational 1995-2001) are long since over.

... and use them for self-defense. What country's airforce threatens Pakistan other than India. Pakistan last used F16s against any country other than India in the 1980s when it shot down Soviet planes. Whoever thought Pakistan wouldn't use AMRAAMs on its planes in a fight with India need not be this naive and need to wake up from their 30 year slumber.
Just a sec, please: do you want to say that the US Congress is full of corrupt idiots that didn't understand the repercussions - or did understand, but intentionally ignored them - when granting permission for delivery of 500 AIM-120C-5s to Pakistan?

'Impossible'...

iv - Again, if rumors are to be trusted, which we shouldn't, at least one of the 2 pilots they credit is a veteran on F16 so Pakistan isn't trying to hide it much. Indian senior generals parading shrapnel of an AMRAAM with serials intact in their first official press briefing was downright uncalled for.

'Uncalled for'?

So, why did Pakistan officially deny the involvement of F-16s - long before the Indians found any kind of AIM-120C-5-wreckage on their soil?

- Another rumor on Indian media was that Pakistanis lynched their own pilot. Yes, India shot down the F16 and Pakistanis lynched their own pilot because?
...it would be the first time a mob lynched own pilot?

...or would you really want me to list about a dozen of such cases (just from the last, say, 30 years)?

They caught the Indian pilot alive and killed their own. You can live in fool's paradise...
Well, since you're into unsubstantiated theoretising, permit me to venture into some substantiated theoretising: Pakistani eyewitnesses/participants of the arrest of the downed IAF MiG-21-pilot all said he pulled his side-arm and fired multiple shots into the air to keep them away.

Why would a PAF pilot do so? After all, he's 'their'.

Perfectly possible reason for a fatal mistake.

i - Pakistanis have claimed this particular AMRAAM was sold to Taiwan which has proven false as highlighted by previous posters citing Taiwanese sources.
Actually: nearly everything official Islamabad said in regards of this affair was a lie. They lie about Pakistan's support for multiple jihadist gangs (and then since decades already); they lie about IAF failing to hit the terror camp ('Madrassa') at Balakot; they lie about 'no F-16s involved' etc. They first said they've captured (actually: 'arrested'; officially at least, India and Pakistan are not in a state of war) 2 Indian pilots, but then switched to the '1' etc.

If somebody is lying all the time, what should be a reason to trust him/her any more?

Lastly, for those who are seeing holes in roofs through satellite images or are citing Pakistan's infamous history with regards to fundamentalism, well there are other forums to discuss that. Don't be too patriotic...
Firstly, and for your info: I'm no Indian, nor a Pakistani citizen.

I'm an Austrian.

...and now I'm really mad, too.

If I'm 'patriotic' when CONTEXTUALISING the situations of this kind so that 'even' people like you can understand what's actually going on, then because I'm really MAD about being screwed up by Pakistani Jihadist supporters for 20+ years; because I can't ****** travel from place A to place B without de-facto undressing on at least one of airport security checkpoints; because of such Pakistani behaviour all the possible retard chauvinists are mistreating even perfectly peaceful and integrated Moslems living between us; because of such Pakistani behaviour I can't even go to the nearby Egyptian Club to enjoy some of great Egyptian food without being cross-checked by the national security service; because all the possible fucktards of our politicians are doing exactly zero to stop all of that bullshit, and for about 75981 other reasons...

After 20+ years of this BS, I think it would be about the time for people like you to finally start understanding the context. At least start accepting there is something like 'context '. AIR COMBATS and AIR WARS DO NOT 'happen'. Not on their own, and not all of a sudden. They also do not happen because there are trigger-happy pilots with testosterone instead of blood flying shiny toys in circles around the clear blue skies while having nothing better to do on Sunday (or Friday) afternoon.

Air forces are serious, professional military services. They've got their laws and regulations, and they've got Rules of Engagement, too. They fly air strikes against terrorist camps because they've been ordered to do so, and because these are terrorist camps. And then there are other air forces that start firing BVRAAMs over the LOC in violation of multiple treaties - because they've been ordered to do so by terrorist-supporting governments, the behaviour of which is ignored by our corrupt politicians since decades.

So tell me, please: how much am I 'taking side' and how 'patriotic' should I be if I simply grew deftly fed up of all of that?
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 12:58

The twin booms is more likely the missile going supersonic.
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 13:25

tomcooper wrote:Neither was I. Guess, there is going to be a 'statement for the press', once the IAF feels like doing it. Wouldn't exclude the possibility of them searching for additional evidence in support of what he's likely to support: serious investigations always take time, no matter where.


I doubt a statement will be forthcoming. Since 2016's alleged strike, we've come to know that the strike is a million times bloated in media than what supposedly happened on the ground.

Correct: the former were claims by the Indian media, the latter the only official statement in this regards.

I like free thinking people because they don't allow such hearsay to cause national fervor that could impact regional peace or elections. Free thinking people (in any part of the world) always seek evidence, even if it the most respectable looking spokesman of the government. Neither the statements of Pakistani spokesman, nor Indian MEA came without their plethora of clear gaps and had their rhetoric plastered inside them.

No idea. I've also got no clue why are people as insistent on the 'Spice-2000' version. Sure, it makes sense to claim it was a 'stand-off-PGM-strike', because that sounds 'sexy', but there are at least as serious (even though also 'unofficial') rumours the Mirages actually went all the way in, and bombed the place using 'dumb' HSLD-bombs.


An ex IAF employee wrote that this strike even if it was carried out exactly as Indian media claims was not some big coup against Pakistani defenses. They bombed a hill a 100km from the nearest AF base.

(i.e. the mass media)


Mass media on which side. Do you watch opinions on both sides? If so, you should know what side made the most boastful claims.

That said, particularly curious is making me the 'deafening silence' from the corner of ex-PAF people: except for one of them trying to explain me the C-in-C WAC IAF was supposedly 'fired' for diverse failures (the Air Marshal in question actually went into retirement on 28 February, exactly as planned already since November last year), haven't heard anything useful from them.

True, unless someone posts his ID card stating his date of birth that is the best indicator of his natural age of retirement, this shouldn't be believed. How unfortunate for him that he retired the very next day after a strike that is being questioned by not just the opposite side, but people inside his own country and the free international press.

Terrain. Check the terrain, i.e. check the map, try to imagine all the mountains there. Even loitering PGMs have massive problems with such terrain - and the IAF has no loitering PGMs in service.


That terrain would in certain senses increase risks too of being caught off guard, especially so deep into the opposite territory.

US Army AH-64 crews are 'intentionally hunting and assassinating Reuters journos around Iraq', and then because they are 'very peace loving'?


This is credible evidence of people being shot. Nothing of this sort has come out of India and will not. Don't tell me India doesn't want to win the perception war and the government an election when global audience (and to some extent local audience) is seriously doubting their capability and claims regarding strikes. C Christine Fair, an expert on global affairs and the most vocal opponent of Pakistani Army and one who claims openly she'd appreciate Indian strikes (if they happened) openly doubted Indian claims. Just check her last few interviews.

It 's not about 'sympathisers of India': it's about matters of facts. On ACIG.info forum we've got a Pakistani who can't stop wondering why all of his compatriots visible on diverse videos from the place where the IAF MiG-21-pilot was collected by the Pakistani Army - either talk about two or three parachutes.


Let's keep the discussion about this forum and what is shared here and not proliferate this outside. Regarding parachutes, that may just be a valid question but it is not someone's duty here to seek evidence. The side that wants to prove a claim must present evidence. I will write in bold.

- IF PAKISTANIS CLAIM THEY SHOT DOWN A SU-30, THEY MUST PRESENT EVIDENCE.
- IF INDIANS CLAIM THEY SHOT DOWN A F-16, THEY MUST PRESENT EVIDENCE.


Foremost is: why? Why do they report multiple parachutes?


The video isn't bullet proof evidence, a cell phone video at a distance of hundreds of meters if not over a kilometer can't be considered irrefutable evidence. Yes, the commentary may suggest there were multiple chutes but if people shot and beat up the (so far only proven) captured Indian pilot against all protocol and released his videos, why did they not fail to release a single speck of evidence of the second pilot. The people who beat up the pilot were called barbaric and animals on Indian media and such people wouldn't really have had the tech savvy digital media sense aligned with Pakistan's narrative to have kept the video of a second or third pilot hidden.

And, where are all these parachutes? Even an empty parachute, or a breaking parachute shot away, must sometimes come down to the ground. Where are they?


You can't be asking this question. Is that bitter frustration? Say there was no chute, they couldn't present it. If there was one or two chutes, with no pilot, why would anyone present it from Pakistani side to support the Indian case.

But foremost: why are there no videos of them after they came down to the ground? How comes there are so many reports about two-three parachutes and at least two pilots coming down inside the Pakistan-controlled-Kashmir - but all we get to see is one Indian pilot?


Again, this can be your frustration and I would love to know the answer too but your frustration in addition to a legitimate question cannot be considered evidence to support that there were two pilots. It can be used to fuel a rumor though and cast doubt on Pakistani claims and that is what has been achieved. That is the best you can hope.

Please help me now: is it really so that AIM-120C-5s became renowned for self-firing and then flying all the way from, say, Jordan, or Taiwan - only to crash inside India. Could it be 'C-5' stands for their actual range? Say, 50,000km or so?

You are extrapolating a serious discussion beyond seriousness. Someone concocted a story that the serial matched a Taiwanese contract for the same munition but it was struck down quickly. It may be some pro Pakistan internet troll who failed to make any fans by spreading this fake story.

Wrong. And then for multiple - and extremely important - reasons. India and Pakistan have signed a number of non-attack treaties, including one in 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot BVRAAMs over the LOC (can't find an online reference for it right now), and - at least as important - another from 1989, along which nobody is supposed to shoot at each other's nuclear facilities.


India took unilateral decision of striking sovereign Pakistani territory (Balakot, for all intents and purposes is Pakistan proper, not disputed region) without exchanging evidence with Pakistan. Neither is there evidence that they took some international mediators into confidence. You can't talk force majeure clauses now as Pakistan has credible evidence that an Indian plane crossed onto its side be it in a chase or for any reason. India didn't manage to shoot the F16 (if they did at all) in its territory. Missiles don't have come back home if fail algorithm. Regardless of US questioning Pakistan or Indian protests about Pakistan's use of AMRAAM, Pakistan has nothing to prove other than the well known fact that it shot down an Indian plane in its territory. In this situation, nobody expects Pakistan to have first traced the LoC before firing missiles. Just like the Indian pilot with years of training didn't manage to hold himself on his side and paid the price of being shot out of the sky, Pakistanis weren't expected to be super careful about the line of control.


...which in turn means that henceforth the IAF is free to open fire at any PAF aircraft underway on the other side of the LOC.
Is exactly what Pakistan probably thought when they seized all civilian air traffic. Their care was shown as fear but they were not giving themselves or India excuses. Even if it was to keep radar clutter free, it was smart on their part. Care is what is best in such scenarios.


THAT is VERY IMPORTANT. Even more so, because rumour has it that the IAF has 'adapted' its ROEs just a few hours after this clash. Which, yes, means: now it's the PAF that can be expected to be 'sorry'.


I really don't understand what you mean. I'd rather not chase a rumor.

How do you 'fight terrorism' with AIM-120C-5s?


Exactly, India would be naive to think Pakistan bought 500 AMRAAMs to defend itself from some other foe. Protesting regarding this wasn't called for. You don't say they used unfair means in a war. It wasn't violation of Geneva Convention or anything. It was just use of an extremely potent weapon. India spends 5 times on defense compared to Pakistan, does Pakistan now say well bring your budget down before we fight?

Has the ISI organized any new air force for one of jihadist gangs it's supporting? The last I've heard the times of the Pakistan-supported 'Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Air Force' (aka, 'Taliban Air Foce' operational 1995-2001) are long since over.


Not addressing this, its rhetoric and beliefs and it's going to spread this discussion further.

Just a sec, please: do you want to say that the US Congress is full of corrupt idiots that didn't understand the repercussions - or did understand, but intentionally ignored them - when granting permission for delivery of 500 AIM-120C-5s to Pakistan?


Pakistan received F16s to bitter protests from India and it used the thing in this engagement, no? You need to stop this discussion of fair or unfair and violation of treaties by Pakistan.

'Uncalled for'?


Generals of one of the worlds most potent military powers don't present themselves to the media for their first official statement about an engagement where they were supposedly outmaneuvered with a piece of a munition that they said they took a hit from.

So, why did Pakistan officially deny the involvement of F-16s - long before the Indians found any kind of AIM-120C-5-wreckage on their soil?


Everyone read public statements from Pakistani spokesman about use of F16s or lack thereof. Let us see what concrete actions take place in this regard going forward.

...it would be the first time a mob lynched own pilot? ...or would you really want me to list about a dozen of such cases (just from the last, say, 30 years)?


It has happened in Turkey/Syria border, Iraq and maybe in Afghanistan, but you miss the point. Pakistanis can identify and trick an Indian pilot, yet they are blind and unable to identify a Pakistani pilot by his uniform. his flag, his chute and his accent. Unless the guy (if there was any) fell down dead, he'd have been able to easily identify himself as a local and gotten away unharmed.

Well, since you're into unsubstantiated theoretising, permit me to venture into some substantiated theoretising: Pakistani eyewitnesses/participants of the arrest of the downed IAF MiG-21-pilot all said he pulled his side-arm and fired multiple shots into the air to keep them away. Why would a PAF pilot do so? After all, he's 'their'. Perfectly possible reason for a fatal mistake.


What are you even saying. What exactly did i theorize that beats logic? Pakistani pilot, crashing on Pakistani side would not have had to use a gun and simply needed to say hello in the native lingo to be rescued. To trust the lynch theory, you'd have to believe Pakistanis didn't lynch an Indian pilot with Indian flag on chute, Indian looks, Indian accent, carrying a gun, shooting in the air, while they lynched their own who had none of these working against him.

Actually: nearly everything official Islamabad said in regards of this affair was a lie. They lie about Pakistan's support for multiple jihadist gangs (and then since decades already); they lie about IAF failing to hit the terror camp ('Madrassa') at Balakot; they lie about 'no F-16s involved' etc. They first said they've captured (actually: 'arrested'; officially at least, India and Pakistan are not in a state of war) 2 Indian pilots, but then switched to the '1' etc.

If somebody is lying all the time, what should be a reason to trust him/her any more?


They didn't lie about shooting down and capturing a pilot. They didn't lie when they said they'd retaliate. They said they didn't shoot down the Mi 17. They reported both Indian strike and their own strike first. India didn't officially stop its media from spreading the 200-350 casualty figure. Their MEA statement said multiple deaths with no evidence. This does not work in India's favor and the free and neutral reporting confirms it. I will not cite third party publications questioning all that India claims in this engagement as I am sure you have read them all.

Firstly, and for your info: I'm no Indian, nor a Pakistani citizen. I'm an Austrian....and now I'm really mad, too.


The world is a small place.

If I'm 'patriotic' when CONTEXTUALISING the situations of this kind so that 'even' people like you can understand what's actually going on, then because I'm really MAD about being screwed up by Pakistani Jihadist supporters for 20+ years; because I can't ****** travel from place A to place B without de-facto undressing on at least one of airport security checkpoints;


You are trying to find holes in Pakistani claims to prove Indian claims just because you are bitter that there are security checks at airports?

because of such Pakistani behaviour all the possible retard chauvinists are mistreating even perfectly peaceful and integrated *** living between us; because of such Pakistani behaviour I can't even go to the nearby Egyptian Club to enjoy some of great Egyptian food without being cross-checked by the national security service; because all the possible **** of our politicians are doing exactly zero to stop all of that ****, and for about 75981 other reasons...


I will censor your cuss words so moderators don't find it difficult cleaning the posts.

After 20+ years of this **, I think it would be about the time for people like you to finally start understanding the context. At least start accepting there is something like 'context '. AIR COMBATS and AIR WARS DO NOT 'happen'. Not on their own, and not all of a sudden. They also do not happen because there are trigger-happy pilots with testosterone instead of blood flying shiny toys in circles around the clear blue skies while having nothing better to do on Sunday (or Friday) afternoon.


There was one trigger happy pilot who crossed over into enemy territory while defending his country. This whole discussion is whether that trigger happy pilot shot an F16 or not.

Air forces are serious, professional military services. They've got their laws and regulations, and they've got Rules of Engagement, too. They fly air strikes against terrorist camps because they've been ordered to do so, and because these are terrorist camps. And then there are other air forces that start firing BVRAAMs over the LOC in violation of multiple treaties - because they've been ordered to do so by terrorist-supporting governments, the behaviour of which is ignored by our corrupt politicians since decades. So tell me, please: how much am I 'taking side' and how 'patriotic' should I be if I simply grew deftly fed up of all of that?


Your frustration is justified in its own right and you have a right to read on the topic and make opinions but you will not be able to win many favors in your argument because neither unsubstantiated claims supporting Pakistani claims, nor Indian claims will be entertained on this forum.
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tomtom

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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 16:13

mixelflick wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.


You have to take the "parachute evidence" within the context of the eye witnesses seeing it? How aviation savvy are they? Consider that some of those parachutes were not aircrew related but air frame related? The same thing happened during Iraq in 2003 with civilians seeing parachutes and reporting to the military that they were seeing pilots bailing out. The Iraqi's wasted a lot of time searching for those downed pilots. These civilians were seeing the parachutes from ALARM missiles and enthusiastically reporting them to the authorities.

Now consider that these civilians were not only seeing the Indian pilot's chute but also the ejection seat drogue chute and a streaming braking chute? To the average person a chute is associated with a pilot or aircrew and seeing it in the sky they would just assume that it is has to have a person attached.

See the tail of the MiG-21 at 1:54. You can see the braking chute cable and the chute housing. Such a chute streaming can cause confusion.

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mixelflick

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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 16:46

Yes, I agree there could be confusion about multiple chutes. No argument there...

But then we have Indian reports early on (later retracted) of an SU-30MKI going down. We also have Indian reports of F-16's locking up SU-30MKI's, and 4-5 AMRAAM shots at said SU-30MKI's, and allegedly the MKI's dodging them. And then the Indian PM's less than glowing commentary as to how the IAF performed/could have really used the Rafale. And finally, we're hearing about how India is changing its ROE's after this little altercation. So taking all of that into consideration, I don't see how India performed all that well, at least insofar as air to air combat is concerned.

I agree PAK has lied repeatedly. I also suspect India has. It's just par for the course in war, nobody wants to lose face. I really wish LM would do a PAK F-16 headcount, so we could know for sure if one was downed. If so, OK I stand corrected.

I really don't care for the whole PAK supports terrorism angle. That much is pretty clear (i.e. Bin Laden living in PAK for a decade or so). I just want the aerial combat results clarified, so we can put them in their proper context and find it whether or not it changes anyone's thinking about aerial warfare in the 21st century.

One thing seems abundantly clear: Dogfights still happen, at least when it comes to 3rd and 4th gen birds are concerned..
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 18:33

tomtom wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.
You have to take the "parachute evidence" within the context of the eye witnesses seeing it? ]


Yes agree - eyewitness accounts are often useless - people looking at the sky trying to understand what they are looking at and naturally they will come to some conclusion in their minds even if it is way off what is really happening.
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Unread post11 Mar 2019, 18:34

mixelflick wrote:To me, the parachute evidence is the best indicator that multiple jets were shot down, not just an IAF Mig-21.

Whose jet(s) those were, will probably be debated for a long time. I stand by my assertion though it was a sub-par showing for the SU-30. Getting locked up by F-16's and having to dodge AMRAAM's (both per the IAF) with no offense of their own has to be concerning.

They're thought to be the dominant fighter in the region, and they were anything but dominant that day..

I think that was MiG 21 drogue parachute which got separated after being hit in tail
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