Indian Mirage 2000 hits targets in Pakistan

[tomcooper]

Tom cooper I like how most of what you have linked and referenced is from twitter, Facebook and YouTube. Where you can also find similar information claiming that the Earth is flat.

If you ignore TANDF and official statements - including those from the Pakistani Parliament - sure.

Relativising everything is easy - especially for those insistent on avoiding Pakistani involvement in supporting jihadists all over the Globe, a matter of fact ever since Afghanistan, the Beartrap was published (a book authored by nobody less than former CO of ISI's Afghan Bureau).

But I will say this much: Pakistan’s prime minister Imran khan asked the Indians to share any information that they had about any alleged terrorists operating in Pakistani soil BEFORE the 26th which India refused to do. But after the 27th Pakistan was handed over a dossier by India containing said info . So it’s natural that they would act against those 44 individuals now.

This is nothing but absurd. Thanks to production of all the possible dossiers about the jihadist groups supported by Pakistan, and the continuous provision of the same to Islamabad, the RAW - Indian equivalent of the CIA - became one of biggest producers of toilet paper on the Sub-Continent.

The Pakistani government knows very much what's going on: the ISI is not running at least a dozen of diverse jihadist groups on its own, but on instruction of the Pakistani government.

And, since dozens of attacks of Pakistan-supported jihadist groups on India are the reason for the IAF air strike on the terrorist training camp outside Balakot, this matter is very much on topic here. Without such activity in Pakistan, there would've been no air strike, and the PAF would never come to the idea to launch its 'counter-strike' (which is actually the only thing that 'failed' in this affair).

Also officially Pakistan has banned the JeM since 2002, there may well have been rogue members of the ISI supporting them but it wasn’t even known to most Pakistani army officials, let alone government or civilians.

Yeah. And, how comes then the JEM runs a Madrassa with 600 'students' outside Balakot?

Can you provide proof of any journalists being denied access to alleged Balakot camp area? Because I have not heard any independent news media like the BBC, Al Jazeera, the guardian etc making such a claim. Please don’t link some random persons social media account as ‘proof’.

No. That's the another absurd point here: how comes all the supposed journos 'free' to visit the bombed site, can't go there to take photos, and publish these? How comes not one of them has published any interviews with the 3-4 thugs running the JEM? None with any of their 'students'?

The closest they get to that terrorist camp is the table about 2km down the road, pointing at the fact that there is a Madrassa 'Taleem ul-Qoraan' run by the JEM in that direction, with telephone numbers etc. See attachment.

Isn't it an outright Christmas wonder none of the journos taking photos of that table, i.e. getting there, couldn't get any closer to the Madrassa? Couldn't reach the telephone number in question and get any kind of interviews?

How comes - if there is no blackout...?

Are 4 ‘big holes’ evidence of a successful hit? It was a 1000kg bomb, those buildings shouldn’t have been left standing unless of course they were made of some as yet undiscovered ballistic resistant materials.

Nonsense. I never said '1000kg' bomb. I said 'four holes'.

BTW, here a photo-report from a hangar at T-4 AB in central Syria, converted into Swiss cheese by multiple Israeli PGMs, about a year ago: would you please kindly explain me how comes that structure still stand there (and is meanwhile in use by the IRGC again), although obviously penetrated by multiple PGMs and having everything inside smashed?

You think 'only the Israeli PGMs can do such things, Indian not'...? If so: mind to substantiate?

[tomcooper]

PAF intentionally dropped the bombs on empty areas...

Where is the evidence that 'PAF intentionally dropped the bombs on empty areas'?

The only 'evidence' for the PAF dropping anything at all are photos like the attached one, showing ammo the PAF jettisoned over some field in NW Pakistan.

...now, word is that no aircrew is jettisoning such ordnance just like that - if not in emergency, but well: I'm sure that Pakistan-apologisers are going to have a truck-load (or two) of explanations...

Why on earth would they drop them directly over the army bases? Lead to a war?

You do understand that for those at the targeted installation, 'shooting in direction of a military installation' is the same like 'shooting at the military installation'... i.e. that, in response to a counter-terrorist air strike by the IAF, the PAF attempted to hit back at the Indian Army, thus breaching multiple rules (especially the Treaty between India and Pakistan from 1989, which stipulates that neither side is supposed to shoot at the other over the LOC)...?

[mair]

If you ignore TANDF and official statements - including those from the Pakistani Parliament - sure.

Relativising everything is easy - especially for those insistent on avoiding Pakistani involvement in supporting jihadists all over the Globe, a matter of fact ever since Afghanistan, the Beartrap was published (a book authored by nobody less than former CO of ISI's Afghan Bureau).

What? When did Pakistan’s parliament claim responsibility for running jihadi terror camps in Balakot?

That book is about Afghanistan. This issue is about Kashmir(or India/Pakistan). Can you develop the ability to stay on topic ?
Oh and btw why don’t you also mention the CIA and the Saudis, who are listed as the creators of the ‘mujahideen’ aka terrorists in the link that YOU just gave yourself? The ISI did act as a conduit to train said mujahideen forces, at the request /dictation of USA and others in the 80s. This was also when the first F16s were sent to Pakistan .

It was the era of the Cold War, and the Soviets had just invaded Afghanistan ok? More than two dozen countries and intelligence agencies directly supervised the training and arming of these ‘terrorists’ chief of which was the CIA. All these terror nut bags were imported en masse during that era, specifically Al qaeda.
I’m well aware of that book and had it and many other sources of info in mind when I said that this is a highly complex , multi faceted issue that people like you paint with a broad brush while ignoring the historical baggage that came with it. I can even prove that the techniques these terrorists use were taught by the militaries of specific countries including Pakistan and the USA and how US soldiers accounts In Afghanistan would corroborate that.

People throw the word ‘terrorists’ and ‘terrorism’ around (and that’s what these guys are in case you lack comprehension I don’t in any way support or justify them) but don’t be an ignorant fool and pretend as if they all just magically dropped out of the sky and into Afghanistan and Pakistan.(both countries were actually secular in the 70s believe it or not)

This is nothing but absurd. Thanks to production of all the possible dossiers about the jihadist groups supported by Pakistan, and the continuous provision of the same to Islamabad, the RAW - Indian equivalent of the CIA - became one of biggest producers of toilet paper on the Sub-Continent.

The Pakistani government knows very much what's going on: the ISI is not running at least a dozen of diverse jihadist groups on its own, but on instruction of the Pakistani government.

And, since dozens of attacks of Pakistan-supported jihadist groups on India are the reason for the IAF air strike on the terrorist training camp outside Balakot, this matter is very much on topic here. Without such activity in Pakistan, there would've been no air strike, and the PAF would never come to the idea to launch its 'counter-strike' (which is actually the only thing that 'failed' in this affair).

Anything that doesn’t go well with your own thoughts is ‘nothing but absurd’.

Let’s assume that the Pakistani government really is complicit and not faced with the left overs of a problem that’s grown too big to handle any time soon, shall we?

Why did India even bother to hand over the dossier to Pakistan just now then? Not much point to it is there since they actively sponsor ‘jihad all over the globe’?(a statement that is actually true in reverse, I.e the whole world had actively sponsored Jihad in Pakistan’s north/northwest and Afghanistan in decades past).

Yeah. And, how comes then the JEM runs a madrassah with 600 students outside Balakot?

A madrassah isn’t a terror camp. Do you have any idea what a ‘madrassah’ even is? Also even if there was a terror camp this point is easily explicable if you read and understand what I have just written above.
It would take decades to completely dismantle all this militant infrastructure since over the decades it has gained support amongst the locals who hide and protect these individuals. It’s also a FACT that the bomb attacks in Kashmir cannot happen unless the local populace within IOK were to actively shelter and aid and abet these terrorists. Nobody talks about this because it’s uncomfortable and so much easier to just blame one or two countries instead. But the truth is terrorism is an idea, that only exists when there’s extremism, and you have to change peoples minds to defeat that. There is no military solution to it.

It’s been 17 years that America has been in Afghanistan. The taliban are even stronger today. If you think Pakistan is even capable of doing all that than explain Iraq ? Or Syria ? ISIS was formed years after the US invasion, and even if it’s defeated other radicals will take over unless people’s minds are changed through politics and diplomacy.

All this is just the icing on the cake. And there’s no military answer to win the war on terror. Otherwise Iraq wouldn’t have turned into what it did. This is completely off topic but a necessary discussion if anybody wants to honestly engage with and actually solve the terror problem. Ask yourself why India even suffered a terror attack even though they carried out a surgical strike two years ago? Military action to stop terror attacks don’t work. Terrorism isn’t an army or a country. This is a fact and cannot be ignored if you want to eradicate this menace rather than going for a lazy and easy default like blaming XYZ country.

[icemaverick]

Says the pilot could have done a better job. In all candor, with HOBS missiles today ANY aircraft (even an F-22) that gets info a furball risks getting locked up, shot down and the pilot lucky if he's in his chute.

I guess the most telling thing in this whole saga was the Indian PM's recent comments..

"Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Saturday accused the Opposition of playing politics over the Rafale deal, saying the entire country was now feeling the need of these fighter planes.

“The country has felt the shortage of Rafale jets. Today, India is asking in one voice what could have happened if we had Rafale. First selfish policies and then politics over the Rafale deal have harmed the nation,” Modi said at the India Today Conclave in the national capital."

When your PM is using words like this to describe the air skirmishes you just fought, it doesn't exactly inspire confidence. Frankly, he sounds like he's had some sobering de-briefs...

Oh I 100% agree that India needs the Rafale and fast. They need to replace their ancient MiG-21s ASAP and the Tejas isn’t going to cut it. But getting locked up doesn’t necessarily mean the Su-30s had a “poor showing.” Arguably, the IAF achieved its objectives: they chased off the PAF attack and no ground targets were hit. By most accounts, the Pakistani incursion was extremely brief.

Using your same logic, the F-16s had a poor showing because one of them was close to being downed by a MiG-21...and if you believe the Indian side of things, it WAS shot down (I personally doubt it).

I wouldn’t put that much stock in Modi’s comments. He has been lobbying for the Rafale deal to go through for 3 years now. Of course he’s going to use this to push his agenda as any politician would do. The Rafale deal has been tied up due to allegations of bribery/corruption.

All that being said, the Russian missiles are probably at a disadvantage against AMRAAMs. Are there any confirmed combat kills with the R-77 “Amraamski?” I think the MICA is at a disadvantage too. India is set to get the Meteor and that should neutralize the advantage and maybe even give them a slight advantage over the AMRAAM-C, which the Pakistanis have.

[knuckles]

Vipers were used. No.9 squadron took part. JF-17s were used as well.

One Viper bagged a two-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Indian area. Fate of 2 pilots unknown.

One JF-17 bagged a single-seat MiG-21, that crashed in the Pakistani area. That pilot was captured, rescued by the Pak Army from the local mob and then handed over a few days later back to India. Lucky his ejection was safe.

No Vipers were lost on Pakistan's side, no matter how much the Indian media claims it to be true.

[pagan]

@pagan,

Too many fairy tales and fake news in your post to even reply. I give up.

Tom cooper I like how most of what you have linked and referenced is from twitter, Facebook and YouTube. Where you can also find similar information claiming that the Earth is flat.

It depends on what the FB/Twitter link is showing.

In a lot of cases, they will show the action as seen by normal civilians. It is raw and unadulterated with any spin.

It is a boon for OSINT, since you can then connect the dots. And it is very timely; people post on social media within minutes of seeing the action.

In comparison, official news briefings will have their own flavor.

In the case of the two videos I have shared about the explosions. They both capture the action as it happened.

The 1st video shows the ejections and the flaming aircraft falling; you can hear two ejection booms and the videographers talking about two parachutes.

In the 2nd video you can see the remnant white puffs of the 1st aircraft, and the second explosion. You can even see the contrails of the missile which hit the 2nd plane.

It does not get better than that.

Now getting back to the topic.
Can you provide proof of any journalists being denied access to alleged Balakot camp area? Because I have not heard any independent news media like the BBC, Al Jazeera, the guardian etc making such a claim. Please don’t link some random persons social media account as ‘proof’.

Are 4 ‘big holes’ evidence of a successful hit? It was a 1000kg bomb, those buildings shouldn’t have been left standing unless of course they were made of some as yet undiscovered ballistic resistant materials.

IAF or Official defense ministry did not talk about the weapons used or whether it was hit.

The Reuters reporters were taken to the site but not allowed into the seminary.

The first photo of the building clearly shows burn marks on the walls. It also shows a small window on the smaller building through which you can see the sky (indicating roof penetration)

And there are numerous other sources from other incidents showing damage from fuel based explosives which leave the buildings intact but scorch the interiors.
====

Hello Tom Cooper. Running into your work after many years.

[mair]

Tom cooper if all that’s true and they are ‘sponsors of global jihad’ then why did India even bother to hand over the dossier to ‘terrorist and jihadi’ Pakistan? https://www.google.com.pk/amp/s/m.econo ... 189918.cms
To use as toilet paper?

Btw you might want to actually read that link(bear trap) you posted, it’s about the CIA and ISIs (amongst others, notably the Saudis)covert support to the ‘Mujahideen’ fighters back in the Reagan era. That’s what created this mess that’s still a challenge to dismantle today. Of course the ISI openly supported those ‘mujahideen’ (who have morphed into terrorists today) that’s why America gave aid to them cuz these fighters inflicted massive damage on the Soviets in Afghanistan. This was also when Pakistan got its first F16s.

[viper21]

tomcooper,

Stop turning this thread into a political stunt.

You're clearly not aware of history, the proxy supports and how these same 'proxies' were hosted in the DC when they wanted to use them. And how much mess they created in the 80s/90s after pulling out of AFG.


Keep this thread technical and about the air combat that took place. Go back to your breit bart hole for political discussions.

[viper21]

I wonder if any of these air forces will release some kind of HUD footage. Looks unlikely from both the sides.

In PAF's case, all they need to do is confirm with LockheedM and account for all the f-16s.

If a Su-30MKI was really lost, will we ever get to know? It would go to Russian blackhole.

And I guess at the next Red Flag or any international exercise PAF is participating in, USAF and others would be super interested in this Flanker encounter.

[vm]

So have the Pakistanis shown the 2nd captured pilot as claimed by their official spokesperson and PM Niazi (no relation to gen niazi, the general who signed the surrrender documents in 1971) ?
They have made multiple claims of the captured 2nd pilot.
Its been more than 10 days now. Or maybe they were just lying.??

[viper21]

@vm, have you been living under a rock? It's one captured pilot, as later confirmed/corrected.

[vm]

@vm, have you been living under a rock? It's one captured pilot, as later confirmed/corrected.

Problem is that your official spokesperson and PM make statements on live TV, which subsequently turn out to be fake. These are big blows to whatever credibility of pak army.

While no official statement from Indian defence forces has been disproved yet.

Also Pakistani claim of 2nd pilot and subsequent withdrawal lends credence to pak airforce losing a fighter jet.
Their is a time gap of 7 hours between the aerial encounter and PM Niazis statement of 2 pilots. Enough time to verify.
Withdrawal of the fake ISPR statement came after 2 days. Something smells.

[gideonic]

Why isn't this thread locked?

Anyone here (with an account registered, you know, before the incident took place) really interested in the fake "discussion" between the two newbie troll-factory'ish accounts?

This is the only thread they are posting anything in and their agenda is stupidly obvious ...

[marsavian]

Mildly interested in all the possible ways this air combat has been spun, one theory must be right, but which one ? Also appreciated Tom's intervention highlighting the terrorist angle and other technical details. As long as these new interested parties don't repeat their information/spam don't really see the harm, this thread will die down anyway without new developments.

[laos]

I have a question for the Indian participants of this thread. How the Indian Armed Forces deal with that fact that 15% of India's population are Muslims ? How many of them support Pakistan ? Can Muslims normally serve in the armed forces?