Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 18:33
by marsavian

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 20:42
by sferrin
Is that typical behavior? Would we do the same were we to be escorting a KC-135 say? (Turn into an opposing aircraft to force them away that is.)

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 20:54
by marsavian
If the F-15 driver had not been paying attention there would have been a coming together. This was not the only recent incident ; Russian Su-27 jet flies within 5 feet of U.S. Navy EP-3 plane over Black Sea: Pentagon.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/russian-je ... black-sea/

The U.S. Navy EP-3 Aries aircraft was intercepted by a Russian SU-27 jet, Pentagon spokeswoman Capt. Pamela Kunze said in a statement. The encounter lasted two hours and 40 minutes, Kunze said. The Russian jet came within 5 feet of the U.S. plane and crossed directly through its flight path, causing the EP-3 to fly through a trail of turbulence.

U.S. Navy releases video of "unsafe" Russian jet intercept
Kunze said the Russian military is "within its right" to fly in international airspace, but they "must behave within international standards set to ensure safety and prevent incidents."

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 20:57
by marsavian

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 20:58
by sprstdlyscottsmn
That is typical behavior of intercepted Russian aircraft. A MiG-31 did the same thing to an F-16.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:16
by sferrin
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:That is typical behavior of intercepted Russian aircraft. A MiG-31 did the same thing to an F-16.


If a B-52 were intercepted by a Flanker, and an F-15 came on the scene, would it get between the Flanker and the B-52 and force it away as happened here?

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 31 Jan 2019, 21:23
by sferrin
marsavian wrote:If the F-15 driver had not been paying attention there would have been a coming together.


If you look carefully, there was a small initial feint by the Flanker towards the Eagle. When the Eagle reacted to it the Flanker then came over into the turn (because he knew the Eagle pilot was watching so he could safely do so). If the Eagle hadn't reacted to the initial feint the Flanker wouldn't have hit him. It likely would have repeated the feint. They're not stupid. Flanker pilot was basically saying, "hey, let's move away".

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 14:17
by marsavian
More bragging from Russian pilots who seem to think they are already at war fighting imaginary dogfights in which they are the only ones informed about it ;)

Su-35 meets F-18/F-15.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian ... ?r=US&IR=T
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtKt_QPHrCj/

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 17:44
by eloise
marsavian wrote:More bragging from Russian pilots who seem to think they are already at war fighting imaginary dogfights in which they are the only ones informed about it ;)

Su-35 meets F-18/F-15.

https://www.businessinsider.com/russian ... ?r=US&IR=T
https://www.instagram.com/p/BtKt_QPHrCj/

No deflection on the tail so the F-18 was flying level

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 17:58
by marsavian
And the WSO took out a camera to take snaps. Reading the translation of the IG post you would think he just became an ACE ! Comical peurile stuff !

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 19:14
by mixelflick
Good Lord these people are desperate...

The real world (combat) evidence is clear: Russian fighters are routinely trounced by American made jets. Sure, you can argue they were downgraded export models flown by rookie hacks, but c'mon. At some point you need to admit defeat. Like when Mig-21's, 23's, 25's and 29's are regularly turned into spare parts, teeth and eyeballs in the skies over (Iraq, Serbia, the Middle East etc, take your pick).

I suppose the Flanker is their last hope. Beautiful jet, but its days as numero uno were over even as it was initially fielded. F-22's and 35's will make short work of it, and I wouldn't be surprised if F-15 or 16's join that party as well.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 09 Feb 2019, 22:25
by marsavian
Mixelflick you surprise me, I thought you would have been all over super-maneuvrable Flankers showing F-18s the way home ! :D

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 13 Feb 2019, 04:05
by firebase99
At least its not a YF-17 Cobra this time.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 16:53
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:Mixelflick you surprise me, I thought you would have been all over super-maneuvrable Flankers showing F-18s the way home ! :D


I'm learning, lol.

I still don't like the F-18. But they are infinitely more combat capable vs. their Russian counterparts.

The big, rangy Flanker family can carry a good war load to great altitude and on kinematics alone is superior to some Western jets. At the very least, you have to admire the airframe. They've really taken the podded platypus concept originally seen in the F-14 and run with it. But they are let down in systems and in particular, weapons. The R-27 doesn't have a single BVR "hit" that I'm aware of in combat. All R-27 fired by Eritrean/Ethiopian Mig-29's and SU-27's missed.

If the F-35's BVR model of stealth, SA etc. works as advertised, they're in for a long day in future conflicts. If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off.

Precipitously!

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Feb 2019, 17:44
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off.

Precipitously!


So what exactly would Su-35 buyers get instead?

Look up how many T-90s Russia sold since GW (a lot).

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 13:59
by mixelflick
hythelday wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off.

Precipitously!


So what exactly would Su-35 buyers get instead?

Look up how many T-90s Russia sold since GW (a lot).


hythelday wrote:
mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off.

Precipitously!


So what exactly would Su-35 buyers get instead?

Look up how many T-90s Russia sold since GW (a lot).


Well, that's my point - there's nothing the Russians have that's better. You may argue the SU-30SM or like derivative, but it still has the RCS of a barn door and will likely be obliterated before it knows the F-35 is there.

They're not getting the SU-57 anytime soon, that much is clear. And even if they could, how many nations could afford it? I don't see it coming in at any less than $100 million/copy, at least if they include all the whiz bang tech they're crowing about. No, Russian allies are going to have to make due with 2nd best fighters.

And in this game, 2nd best = dead

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 23 Feb 2019, 14:36
by hythelday
Your point was that in the absence of adequate answer to F-35 sales of Russian fighters (Flanker family) would plummet, as soon as one Flanker is defeated in combat. The answer is no - because weapon market is not exactly the kind of market where customer can choose freely what it buys.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 14:49
by mixelflick
hythelday wrote:Your point was that in the absence of adequate answer to F-35 sales of Russian fighters (Flanker family) would plummet, as soon as one Flanker is defeated in combat. The answer is no - because weapon market is not exactly the kind of market where customer can choose freely what it buys.


Can you elaborate on this please?

When the Shah of Iran wanted a fighter capable of downing Iraqi Foxbats, he came to the US to see a "flyoff" between the F-14 and F-15 at Andrews AFB, I think it was. When the demo's were complete, the story is that he walked past the F-15 without even looking at it, made a beeline to the F-14 and as we know, bought 80 of them (79 delivered).

Does it work differently in other countries? Now sure, I realize politics comes into play. Like the fact Egypt or Quatar aren't getting the F-35, at least not for a LONG time (to preserve Israel's qualitative edge). I'm not asking to be a wise guy either, interested in learning.

Thank you

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 18:10
by hythelday
mixelflick wrote:Can you elaborate on this please?


Yes, here's your original post:

mixelflick wrote:If I were them, I'd sell as many "invincible" SU-35's as fast as possible. Because as soon as the first one falls to an F-35's (or F-15's!) AMRAAM, sales are going to drop off. Precipitously!


My counter-argument is that Flanker sales will not depend that much on the performance of Flankers in actual combat, because 1) countries don't always buy top of the line stuff simply because it is not sold to them 2) weapon sales today are much like marriage in the days of royals - prime way to broker geo-military-political deals 3) tech transfer 4) other reasons such as corruption etc. I.e. After Iraqi T-72s were smashed in combat in the most decisive way imaginable India still decided to purchase more than a thousand T-90s, even though T-90 was actually supposed to be called T-72BU, since it is just a further development of the original Ural.

mixelflick wrote:When the Shah of Iran wanted a fighter capable of downing Iraqi Foxbats, he came to the US to see a "flyoff" between the F-14 and F-15 at Andrews AFB, I think it was. When the demo's were complete, the story is that he walked past the F-15 without even looking at it, made a beeline to the F-14 and as we know, bought 80 of them (79 delivered).

Does it work differently in other countries? Now sure, I realize politics comes into play. Like the fact Egypt or Quatar aren't getting the F-35, at least not for a LONG time (to preserve Israel's qualitative edge). I'm not asking to be a wise guy either, interested in learning.

Thank you


I am really glad that you bring out this wonderful story, again. Says more than I ever could. A decision based on a whim of an autocrat far removed from military aviation sealed the fate of F-14 in Iranian service. Not even a proper eval, but a demo flight. Much like the Shah, you are all over Tomcat purely because of the looks, not because of performance.

You know, there was another air force looking for air superiority fighter at that time, too:
In 1974, the IAF assembled a test team for choosing an air dominance plane that would ensure the IAF's superiority over the Arab air forces for years to come. The candidates were the F-14 and the F-15, both of which were flown in the US by IAF pilots, who tested maneuverability, weapons systems and flight characteristics. The test team decided unanimously that the F-15 was a better plane, and one that could determine the shape of the battle and attain victory against every type of plane in the Arab arsenals

http://m.iaf.org.il/7261-18181-en/IAF.aspx

I would take IAF pilots' decision over Iranian Shah any time, every time. The had to worry about Syrian and Egyptian Foxbats too.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 18:23
by marsavian
The Shah was an ex-pilot and if you read Tom Cooper's book they had already decided on F-14 before that demo based on detailed analysis of all its characteristics, the demo was as much for F-15's benefit than for anything else. You can't really argue they chose wrongly seeing how it caused so much trouble for the Iraqis at long range, i.e. it handled the Foxbat better with the AWG-9/Phoenix then the F-15 did with APG-63/Sparrow.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 19:27
by hythelday
marsavian wrote:i.e. it handled the Foxbat better with the AWG-9/Phoenix then the F-15 did with APG-63/Sparrow.

They did?

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 22:34
by sferrin
hythelday wrote:
marsavian wrote:i.e. it handled the Foxbat better with the AWG-9/Phoenix then the F-15 did with APG-63/Sparrow.

They did?


The F-14 had already shown it could shoot down a Mig-25 by shooting down at least one BOMARC at speed and altitude. I'm not aware of any such testing with the F-15. (But I also seem recall there were some shenanigans going on that influenced the F-14 decision over the F-15. Nothing illegal, I recall laughing when I read the story, but I don't recall the details.)

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 22:39
by sprstdlyscottsmn
sferrin wrote:But I also seem recall there were some shenanigans going on that influenced the F-14 decision over the F-15. Nothing illegal, I recall laughing when I read the story, but I don't recall the details.)

That the F-14 was sitting at full mil the whole F-15 display so that it was light enough to have amazing performance and land on vapors? In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 21 Mar 2019, 23:48
by basher54321
According to an Israeli source it was the Recon MiG-25s at high alt/Mach they had problems with - but IIRC this was fixed with later radar software revisions (some point after the 82 conflict).

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 00:45
by sferrin
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.


Are there any available stats on this? The only one I'm aware of was an instance of a HAWK hitting a Mig-25 at altitude, damaging it enough that it slowed down, and descended, where it was finished off by an F-15.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 01:54
by firebase99
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
sferrin wrote:But I also seem recall there were some shenanigans going on that influenced the F-14 decision over the F-15. Nothing illegal, I recall laughing when I read the story, but I don't recall the details.)

That the F-14 was sitting at full mil the whole F-15 display so that it was light enough to have amazing performance and land on vapors? In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.


IIRC, the Cat had like 8% fuel and the F-15 had like 30% so it gave them roughly the same T/W ratio, additionally, the pilot flew it like he just stole it.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 02:03
by crosshairs
The US is fortunate that Iran procured the F-14. Contrary to popular belief, the liberal democrats were just as anti-military as they are today. The tomcat was in very real jeapordy of being canceled by congress. Some of the highlights that I recall noted the overly complicated wings (not counting the swing wing mechanism) and the overly complicated and troublesome hydraulic system, and the pos engines. Tomcat was very close to being canceled. Expensive, expensive missiles, and worrisome reliability. Then Iran ordered it and the USN was then allowed to proceed with replacing the phantoms.

If Iran had not ordered the tomcat, Maverick and Goose might have been flying an advanced phantom, and The Final Countdown would have featured phantoms splashing the WWII Japanese fighters.

We can postulate that if the tomcat were canceled that the Navy would have developed something different. But not likely till the 90s as phantoms were built for a LONG time and little support would exist for a new navy fighter after the f-111 fiasco and then the f-14 fiasco.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 03:02
by sprstdlyscottsmn
-19 powered Phantoms

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 03:02
by fbw
sferrin wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:In the end, F-15s bagged quite a few MiG-25s with Sparrows.


Are there any available stats on this? The only one I'm aware of was an instance of a HAWK hitting a Mig-25 at altitude, damaging it enough that it slowed down, and descended, where it was finished off by an F-15.



IIRC, most of the F-15/Aim-7 shots were tail chase with the MiG-25 having at a significant speed/distance advantage. GW1 saw 2 confirmed MiG-25 kills by F-15’s? No doubt lowest Pk per missile shot by target in GW1which isn’t surprising considering ambush tactic employed by the MiG’s.

As far as F-14 display to the Shah, give some credit to the pilot, by all accounts he wow’d the crowd. According to pilots, the F-14 was built like a block of steel, 7.33G limit be damned. At least a few accounts from both F-14 and -15 pilots recall them exceeding 9-10G in ACEVAL/AIMVAL evals. Glad the Shah got the F-14’s, the Tf-30 was horrific at high AoA and compressor stalls with any rapid throttle inputs. We have to be thankful everyday we didn’t give the Iranians the F100 (not that it was all that problem free in the 70’s)

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 03:12
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Israeli pilots bagged Foxbats with face shots.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 03:15
by madrat
Sparrow missiles required new fuse timing. F-15A could track the Foxbat fine.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 03:27
by fbw
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Israeli pilots bagged Foxbats with face shots.


I was looking at USAF F-15/MiG-25 kills. I’m not that familiar with Israeli claims outside of the first MiG-25 kill that was credited to an F-15/Aim-7. I’m lacking in documentation in regards to the Israeli F-15 kills by weapon/type or scenario.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 04:23
by fbw
Looking through the admittedly spotty documentation, I can find two/three IDF F-15 kills on MiG-25, the very first one on 12/31/1980 which was accredited to an AIM-7, one on 03/02/81 and one in 8/31/1982 which is a shaired claim with ground fire. This jive with your information?

3 kills with conflicting dates? Tom Cooper?

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 04:55
by sprstdlyscottsmn
"On 13 February 1981, the Israeli Air Force sent two RF-4Es over Lebanon as decoys for Syrian MiG-25 interceptors. As the MiGs scrambled, the RF-4Es turned back delivering chaff and using ECM pods. Two IDF/AF F-15As were waiting for the MiGs and shot one of them down with AIM-7F missiles. The other MiG was able to escape. In a similar engagement, on 29 July 1981, a Syrian MiG-25 was again downed by an Israeli F-15A, after which a second MiG-25 launched its R-40 missiles at the F-15 and its wingman, but they missed."

From Wiki with a book reference.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 13:39
by mixelflick
hythelday wrote..

"Much like the Shah, you are all over Tomcat purely because of the looks, not because of performance."

I agree with most of what you wrote, but disagree with you strongly here. I made many a performance based argument for F-14D and Super Tomcat vs. Super Hornet in another thread. Does it look badass? Sure does. But I cited many an example of its superior range, speed, kinematics, radar, weapons etc.

With respect to the F-14 vs. 15, I'd agree the Eagle is superior in most respects. But the F-14 was incredibly effective in its role, and nowhere have I read of Iranian pilots (or anyone else) lamenting the fact that they should have bought the F-15..

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 15:38
by mixelflick
Wow. Lotta conflicting info on Israeli Foxbat kills with the F-15.

Is there a definitive resource? Tom Cooper??

This is an important piece of information IMO. I always wondered how effective the F-15 vs. Mig-25 really was. If GWI was any indication, bagging a Mig-25 wasn't easy. Those Iraqi pilots were good, albeit they made some mistakes too. I have no doubt the F-14 and F-15 ruined many a Foxbat's party.

Just would like to know which was more capable in downing one..

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 15:39
by sferrin
mixelflick wrote:hythelday wrote..

"Much like the Shah, you are all over Tomcat purely because of the looks, not because of performance."

I agree with most of what you wrote, but disagree with you strongly here. I made many a performance based argument for F-14D and Super Tomcat vs. Super Hornet in another thread. Does it look badass? Sure does. But I cited many an example of its superior range, speed, kinematics, radar, weapons etc.

With respect to the F-14 vs. 15, I'd agree the Eagle is superior in most respects. But the F-14 was incredibly effective in its role, and nowhere have I read of Iranian pilots (or anyone else) lamenting the fact that they should have bought the F-15..


A shame they were never able to get the F401 working. :doh:

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 19:04
by basher54321
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:"On 13 February 1981, the Israeli Air Force sent two RF-4Es over Lebanon as decoys for Syrian MiG-25 interceptors.....




In Israeli F-15 Units in combat (S Aloni) there are pilot accounts of the above and the claims were:

13 Feb 1981 Benny Zinker (MiG-25P)
29 July 1981 Shaul Simon (MiG-25P)
31 August 1982 Shaul Schwartz ( MiG-25R was hit by a HAWK first and descended to lower alt)

All AIM-7Fs

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 22 Mar 2019, 19:30
by sprstdlyscottsmn
basher54321 wrote:In Israeli F-15 Units in combat (S Aloni)

That was the last name in the incomplete wiki citation. Thanks.

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 13:04
by mixelflick
sferrin wrote:
mixelflick wrote:hythelday wrote..

"Much like the Shah, you are all over Tomcat purely because of the looks, not because of performance."

I agree with most of what you wrote, but disagree with you strongly here. I made many a performance based argument for F-14D and Super Tomcat vs. Super Hornet in another thread. Does it look badass? Sure does. But I cited many an example of its superior range, speed, kinematics, radar, weapons etc.

With respect to the F-14 vs. 15, I'd agree the Eagle is superior in most respects. But the F-14 was incredibly effective in its role, and nowhere have I read of Iranian pilots (or anyone else) lamenting the fact that they should have bought the F-15..


A shame they were never able to get the F401 working. :doh:


Indeed!

Tomcat is absolutely menacing... :)

Re: Su-27 and F-15 in air policing close encounter

Unread postPosted: 23 Mar 2019, 13:35
by sferrin
Just looking at the book "Uncovering The Grumman F-14 A/B/D Tomcat". When people talk about the Tomcat's complexity they ain't kiddin'. :shock: Forget the APG-71/Phoenix and vision system below the nose for a moment. Just the mechanical complexity of the thing, compared to an Eagle or Super Hornet, is mind-boggling.