Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 21:21
by basher54321
The IDF have posted a video of some kind of weapon (Delilah?) flying into an SA-22 during a recent operation against Syria.

Warning not for the faint hearted.

https://twitter.com/IDFSpokesperson/sta ... 5007607813

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 22:11
by SpudmanWP
Lol.. Faint-hearted?
A typical action movie shows more.


Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 22:22
by botsing
Is that footage not from a IAI Harop suicide drone?

Due to the slow approach speed it seems unlikely to me that this was a Delilah missile.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 22:41
by hythelday
botsing wrote:Is that footage not from a IAI Harop suicide drone?

Due to the slow approach speed it seems unlikely to me that this was a Delilah missile.



SPICE and Harop seem to have video feed/symbology different from this one.

(Supposedly) Delilah:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNYUXgl7SsM

Or maybe Tamuz?:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vpSpha7bKgo

Can't wait for them to bag a S-300 and see butthurt brigade come up with usual excuses of downgraded export models and inadequate crews.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 22:54
by botsing
hythelday wrote:SPICE and Harop seem to have video feed/symbology different from this one.

(Supposedly) Delilah:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SNYUXgl7SsM

I think you are correct. That Delilah video you posted does indeed show the same symbology as the SA22 video.

The Harop video feed that I could find had a different symbology:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oi4ICfLDqtQ

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 23:33
by juretrn
I thought Pantsir is specifically made to defend against cruise missiles and drones and is super effective in that role? What gives?
I guess marketing is easy.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 10 May 2018, 23:46
by SpudmanWP
It was either turned off, getting reloaded, etc.

The crew was standing on the side of the road and one ran back.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 00:22
by popcorn
Real world : 1
Brochure hype : 0

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 07:16
by citanon
Look at the last seconds of it. The missiles were not even pointed in the right direction.

This was IR footage so I'm guessing at night. They might have been looking for targets in one direction, never even saw the little missile sneaking in from the other direction.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 11:16
by hornetfinn
citanon wrote:Look at the last seconds of it. The missiles were not even pointed in the right direction.

This was IR footage so I'm guessing at night. They might have been looking for targets in one direction, never even saw the little missile sneaking in from the other direction.


Yes, it seems like the unit did not have any early warning. It was definitely not searching for targets on its own as the surveillance radar was not rotating. My guess is that they were not expecting any immediate air attack at the time. So it was pretty much perfect timing for Israeli forces!

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 11:30
by citanon
hornetfinn wrote:
citanon wrote:Look at the last seconds of it. The missiles were not even pointed in the right direction.

This was IR footage so I'm guessing at night. They might have been looking for targets in one direction, never even saw the little missile sneaking in from the other direction.


Yes, it seems like the unit did not have any early warning. It was definitely not searching for targets on its own as the surveillance radar was not rotating. My guess is that they were not expecting any immediate air attack at the time. So it was pretty much perfect timing for Israeli forces!


Ahh I see. Good point about the radar. I wonder how long the Israelis were observing them to find the perfect time to strike.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 11 May 2018, 11:58
by hornetfinn
It would be really interesting to know the events leading up to such successful attack. Syrian side was definitely totally unaware of the attack or they had serious communications problems. Otherwise the Pantsir would've tried to fight or alternatively be driven to safety. It was basically a sitting and sleeping duck in the middle of the airfield.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 08:17
by mk82
juretrn wrote:I thought Pantsir is specifically made to defend against cruise missiles and drones and is super effective in that role? What gives?
I guess marketing is easy.


There is an easy answer Juretrn, the Pantsir is another example of over hyped and hot farting Russian marketing. More importantly, what the glossy Russian SAM brochures don’t show you is the importance of human factors/human competence ........which is always the most important factor in any weapon system. Looks like only one of the 4 Syrian Pantsir operators realized (rather belatedly) that they were under direct attack. The other 3 dudes were standing around not realizing they had their “pants down”.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 08:57
by citanon
Yeah, but Darwin stepped in against the alert one.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 12 May 2018, 20:54
by snypa777
The answer could be much simpler. When the IAF are flying overhead, the safest place for a Pantsir crew is not in the vehicle. There have been numerous reports of Syrians not being "up for a fight" from Iranian and Russian sources. Also, if you are radiating and active, you're just going to become a target for an ARM at some point.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 00:26
by michaelemouse
How integrated is Syria' IADS anymore? If the early warning sensors which are supposed to cue the weapon platforms are destroyed/disrupted/turned off, then any weapon platform will have difficulty deciding when it should transmit.

How easy are cruise missiles to pick up in IR?

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 13 May 2018, 15:11
by mixelflick
That was the super duper Pantsir SAM battery, was it?

And why was that dude running toward the vehicle vs. away from it? Surely, he didn't think he was going to turn it on, acquire targets and fire in such a short timeframe?

I'll second the S-300/400 scenario when those are hit. Going to be really bad PR for anyone contemplating ordering those systems. Sure, they're lethal/to be respected. But the way the Russians pump them up in their brochures they're invincible. Stealth aircraft? No problem. Cruise missiles? No problem. Edge of space down into the weeds? No problem.

Combat record? We have a problem...

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 01:35
by Dragon029
They likely had no idea that the missile or drone was about to impact, they probably just heard another missile / drone impacting elsewhere, or perhaps just got the call that an Israeli strike was underway.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 08:57
by hornetfinn
michaelemouse wrote:How integrated is Syria' IADS anymore? If the early warning sensors which are supposed to cue the weapon platforms are destroyed/disrupted/turned off, then any weapon platform will have difficulty deciding when it should transmit.

How easy are cruise missiles to pick up in IR?


This attack shows that they have really serious problems with their IADS. If their kill chain is disrupted for some reason (destroyed equipment or jammed communications for example) then any SHORAD system is going to be in serious trouble. Without working early warning and surveillance/search radars or directions from C2 elements, SHORAD systems must operate independently which lowers their efficiency and effectiveness a lot. They could use their own surveillance/search radar which would be a beacon for enemy SEAD/DEAD efforts and would only be relatively safely usable for very short periods of time (less than half a minute at a time). Even then the search range would be quite short. Independent operation is also very taxing for personnel and equipment for longer periods of time.

Cruise missiles are rather difficult to pick up in IR as they emit very little heat (low power turbojet usually) and fly low and relatively slow. So there is quite a lot of background thermal noise and not very much skin heat. Detection range is likely quite a bit shorter than against fighter jets.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 12:58
by hornetfinn
Dragon029 wrote:They likely had no idea that the missile or drone was about to impact, they probably just heard another missile / drone impacting elsewhere, or perhaps just got the call that an Israeli strike was underway.


It might well be that he ran to answer the radio or phone call about getting ready to fight the attack... just a bit too late...

The behaviour of the crew looks like they had no idea what was going to happen in seconds.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 14 May 2018, 12:58
by mk82
mixelflick wrote:That was the super duper Pantsir SAM battery, was it?

And why was that dude running toward the vehicle vs. away from it? Surely, he didn't think he was going to turn it on, acquire targets and fire in such a short timeframe?

I'll second the S-300/400 scenario when those are hit. Going to be really bad PR for anyone contemplating ordering those systems. Sure, they're lethal/to be respected. But the way the Russians pump them up in their brochures they're invincible. Stealth aircraft? No problem. Cruise missiles? No problem. Edge of space down into the weeds? No problem.

Combat record? We have a problem...


Absolutely spot on Mixelflick!

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 08:58
by hornetfinn
There seems to be claims floating around that this Pantsir was waiting to be reloaded and was out of ammo. That might well be the case as the crew was out of the vehicle (possibly waiting for ammo truck to arrive), but then it was done in worst possible way imaginable. An out-of-ammo mobile AD system should be moved to safer place (like inside/between buildings or under a bridge or inside forest) for reloading ASAP and not wait in the middle of an open field.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 09:44
by popcorn
Running out of ammo and needing to reload isn't an excuse as it would happen in a real world combat scenario.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 11:37
by hornetfinn
popcorn wrote:Running out of ammo and needing to reload isn't an excuse as it would happen in a real world combat scenario.


Sure and if that was the situation, then the Pantsir crew and their command elements handled that very badly for some reason. It seems to me that their equipment (overall, not just Pantsir S1), tactics and/or training/skills failed badly.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 13:41
by citanon
I looked at the last few frames before the missile hit.

There seems to be two bright cylindrical shapes where the missile rack is supposed to be.

To me, those look like missiles, but I'm not an expert by any stretch.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2018, 13:55
by hornetfinn
Those are missile tubes and there is no way of telling if they are empty or still have missiles in them. It might as well be that the system was fully loaded at the time.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 11:23
by gc
https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-lo ... ystem.html

It used to be the most amazing SHORAD system capable of swatting all PGMs out of the sky. Only to be shamed on video by IDF. Now it is labelled ineffective. Whats new? Maybe one day we will find out how the S-300/400 and Su-35 is ineffective after they are taken out by the F-35.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 12:49
by loke
gc wrote:https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html

It used to be the most amazing SHORAD system capable of swatting all PGMs out of the sky. Only to be shamed on video by IDF. Now it is labelled ineffective. Whats new? Maybe one day we will find out how the S-300/400 and Su-35 is ineffective after they are taken out by the F-35.

I suspect even the Eurocanards, SH and F-16V/F-21 can easily handle both the SU-35 and at least the S-300... There are S-300 in the ME already and Israel has not had too much issues with those, AFAIK. Rafale has successfully dealt with S-300s in excercises. Etc. The updated S-400 may be slightly tougher nut to crack? As would the SU-57 (if/when it becomes available)

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 17:13
by sferrin
loke wrote:
gc wrote:https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-looking-for-replacement-for-troubled-pantsir-air-defense-system.html

It used to be the most amazing SHORAD system capable of swatting all PGMs out of the sky. Only to be shamed on video by IDF. Now it is labelled ineffective. Whats new? Maybe one day we will find out how the S-300/400 and Su-35 is ineffective after they are taken out by the F-35.

I suspect even the Eurocanards, SH and F-16V/F-21 can easily handle both the SU-35 and at least the S-300... There are S-300 in the ME already and Israel has not had too much issues with those, AFAIK.


When has Israel (or anybody for that matter) attacked a site defended by S-300s?

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 19:33
by SpudmanWP
Syria has at least one S-300 and it would cover the capital no matter where you put it in Western Syria.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... ty-at-best

Don't forget that Russia has S-300 and S-400 systems in Syria that are likely in the Tartus area between the two Russian Bases. This puts those less than 100 miles from the Capital.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 23:29
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:Syria has at least one S-300 and it would cover the capital no matter where you put it in Western Syria.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... ty-at-best

Don't forget that Russia has S-300 and S-400 systems in Syria that are likely in the Tartus area between the two Russian Bases. This puts those less than 100 miles from the Capital.


Did any of those sites ever attempt to shoot down Israeli aircraft? It's a bit like implying the F-22 isn't so hot because it never shot down any Russian Backfires dropping bombs in Syria.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 May 2019, 23:31
by sprstdlyscottsmn
I seem to recall they shot down a friendly while trying to engage an Israeli jet.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 01:44
by sferrin
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:I seem to recall they shot down a friendly while trying to engage an Israeli jet.


With an S-300?

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 02:32
by Dragon029
Negative, Russia gave that S-300 to Syria specifically because of that friendly fire incident (a Russian Il-20 being shot down by a Syrian S-200).

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 03:00
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Thanks for the details Dragon.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 04:04
by SpudmanWP
sferrin wrote:Did any of those sites ever attempt to shoot down Israeli aircraft?
You're assuming they could even see them. :roll:
sferrin wrote:It's a bit like implying the F-22 isn't so hot because it never shot down any Russian Backfires dropping bombs in Syria.
IIRC there is a dividing line that the US has attacked aircraft who crossed. IF the Backfire stayed on the other side, then they left them alone.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 07:46
by marauder2048
I just think the terrain in southern Syria and the Lebanense littoral is really conducive to Israeli ingress.

Makes you appreciate the value of the Golan Heights.

Seems like a hard problem for the Syrians to solve absent some persistent overhead early warning or the sort
ground-based air defense element density they achieved in 1973.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 11:56
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:IIRC there is a dividing line that the US has attacked aircraft who crossed. IF the Backfire stayed on the other side, then they left them alone.


How do we know the Russian sites aren't operating under similar restrictions?

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 17:46
by SpudmanWP
Not only is there no line separating the north from the south, there is a Syrian S-300 within range of it's own capital but that has not stopped Israel from taking out targets in that area. When Russia brought in their systems, they proclaimed loud and proud that they would be fully integrated into the Syrian air defense network.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 17:50
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:Not only is there no line separating the north from the south, there is a Syrian S-300 within range of it's own capital but that has not stopped Israel from taking out targets in that area. When Russia brought in their systems, they proclaimed loud and proud that they would be fully integrated into the Syrian air defense network.


Still, I think if an Israeli or US aircraft flew right through the middle of the S-400 envelope Russia would be hesitant to shoot it down simply from the likely ramifications. Same reason we didn't see US fighters shooting down Backfires.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 16 May 2019, 19:05
by SpudmanWP
But there is nothing stopping a Syrian S-300 from doing it.. unless they can't see it. Remember that a Syrian S-300 can lanuch based on a Russian S-300/400 queue.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 10:08
by hornetfinn
IMO, SA-22 is still 1970s concept. It's basically an upgraded 2S6 Tunguska which entered Soviet service in early 1980s. It's likely a powerful and dangerous system still and has some interesting features, but I'd say current Western systems are much more effective and survivable compared to it.

Currently Western systems for short- and medium range are going to systems like NASAMS, IRIS-T SLS, Spyder and SAMP/T. All these have highly accurate fire-and-forget missiles and system units can be spread over wide geographical areas. Most of these systems use AESA radars with superior performance (especially against small and LO targets), superior LPI features and EW resistance.So the sensors and launch units are widely separated, sensors are more difficult to detect and engage and missiles can come from multiple directions at the same time. Losing one radar is not that big problem as replacing it will be far cheaper than replacing system like Pantsir S1. In Pantsir S1 losing a vehicle means likely losing all the sensors, weapons and most importantly the trained crew. In Western systems it will be very difficult to kill anything else besides single radar.

The firepower and rate of fire of these Western systems can be huge with possibly even dozens of missiles in the air at the same time. Pantsir S1 and similar systems put all eggs in the same basket and have all the sensors and weapons combined. Also the ability to engage simultaneous targets is limited due to command guided missiles. Chinese are also going this road with their Sky Dragon 50 for example.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 11:42
by sferrin
SpudmanWP wrote:But there is nothing stopping a Syrian S-300 from doing it.. unless they can't see it. Remember that a Syrian S-300 can lanuch based on a Russian S-300/400 queue.


I think Russian participation, of any kind, in a shootdown of a US aircraft, might be more than Russia is willing to risk. If they were to do that it's not impossible that it would be open season on any Russian aircraft in or over Syria.

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 17 May 2019, 14:29
by falcon.16
sferrin wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:But there is nothing stopping a Syrian S-300 from doing it.. unless they can't see it. Remember that a Syrian S-300 can lanuch based on a Russian S-300/400 queue.


I think Russian participation, of any kind, in a shootdown of a US aircraft, might be more than Russia is willing to risk. If they were to do that it's not impossible that it would be open season on any Russian aircraft in or over Syria.


How you know, russian S400 or S300 have helped to Syrian S300 cueing some Israely fighter?

I think, Israel can not know it on case a Fighter will be downed.

So, Russians anounced time ago all systems are integraded on same network, so they can Help to the Syrian S-300 or pantsir or other assets.

And some fresh news.

Russia looking for replacement for “troubled” Pantsir air defense system
https://defence-blog.com/army/russia-lo ... ystem.html

Re: Israel strike Syrian SA-22

Unread postPosted: 15 Jun 2019, 13:23
by hythelday
https://twitter.com/Obs_IL/status/1139836588408659968

Image

It seems that the #SAA dropped the idea of a new YJ-27 Radar at #Damascus Airport after it was destroyed Jan 22nd 2019 by the #IAF. HRSI reveal that the new radar has similarities with #Russian hardware, such as Flap Lid, Tombstone, CheeseBoard. Your input is welcome. #GEOINT


ImageSat Intl is silent. Waiting for the next round of air strikes to clear things up.