Air-Ground in Vietnam

[Snake-1]

Thank you both for the answers!
Snake - I didn't knew it was one of the birds you flew

A few more questions - what was the designation of the CBU tube dispenser on the A-37? What was the method of deployment - I guess small charges pushing the bomblet out of the tube one after the other (trough the back?)

Now, a couple of questions about SEAD.
AFAIK only the F-105 G carried the Shrike in SEA as far as USAF is concerned - right?
How effective was it? (the Shrike)
Did the vietnamese knew when they were targeted and shut down the radars or they had no clue before being hit?
What radars were targeted in most occasions - the SA-2 sites radar, AA artilery guidance radars or large search and coordination radars at regional HQs?
Did the F-105s need any targeting pod such as the HTS on the Viper? What about ECM pods? I guess the thing strapped to the port fuselage in this pic has to be one of the two.

Sorry for the multiple questions...

ROAK

In re-reading your input I noticed that I didn't answer some of your questions --- sorry!!! --- it must be an age thing.

First, The Thud did carry a majority of the WW role in Sea with both the Shrike and the 78. But in 72-73 we did have some F-4C Weasels giving a needed helping hand. But they only carried, and employed, the Shrike. They did not have the majic boxes to work the 78. I think that there was also a carriage problem with the 78 for the 4 at that time.

Next, The shrike was fairly effective against any radar controlled site (i.e., SAms, AAA, etc.) as long as the site stayed up. Once it went down the missile went ballistic. But, if the missile was fired and left an electronic footprint, sites would not know if it was targetting/locked on to them or someone else. If they stayed up they had a good probability of being hit. If they went down they weren't protecting anything. So either way the Weasels job was done.

As I said above, the bad guys had to decide if they had big Brass ones or tiny nuggets. In order to keep them shut down for the longest time possible crews would loft the missile at its max range.

The target offering the greatest threat to the Weasels and the strike force was the primary. In most cases it was the SAMs but if the strike birds went in at medium to low altitude it could be AAA. THe SAMS were the biggest worry to the strike force as they could really reach out and touch someone.

I'm not really sure what the Thud had on board as tracking equipment but I do know it was in azimuth only (No range). And yes they did have ECM pods. We didn't get the range capability until the F-4G with the 35 radar system. This little beauty would tell you EVERY threat that you were facing with range and azimuth and would track in memory its position while you are messing around in the target area. You could also prioritize (ZSU-23-4's, 6's and 8's over 2's, or what ever order you wanted) targets to take out to reduce the threat. Then we put the AGM-65 on board so that we could go in low, pop on the target for minimum exposure time, lock and launch the 65, and get back in the weeds again as quickly as possible. We'd be exposed for maybe 15 or 20 seconds depending on how fast the bear locked up the 65. It was great fun and being the snake I loved it down there (besides I get nose bleeds at high altitude).

Quick story-- in the FOT&E phase of bringing the G on line we had to go against the Navy at the Fallon Electronic range. Their sites were positioned at each corner of a wide rectangle and they were use to the Thuds and their tactics of launching their 45's and 78 and medium to high altitude so they had a very high kill rate against the threat from George. We went in with two "G's" split up (coming in from the east) about 100 miles out with one G coming in from the north against the west two targets and the other G coming in from the South against the two eastern targets. We were so low we were leaving sand roster tails and the snakes were looking up at us. WE both popped within 5 to 10 seconds of each other killed all the targets on the first pass within another 15 seconds and then circled the site while the Navy tried to catch up. They then asked us to try that stunt again and again we whipped them badly. They became better over time but still had problems with quick lock-ups and firing when we came in from the weeds.

Hope this answers all.

THe Snake

[Gums]

Salute!

You talking the IIR Mav, Snake?

Damned E-O doofer was a bear to get locked on. The IIR version could pick out a "hot" antenna or whatever real easy.

The HARM seemed to me a super doofer. The ones we were integrating in the late 80's and early 90's had a really good inertial that could "remember" where the threat was and hit pretty close if the dude shut down.

We were doing work for the Navy's A-12 (before it got cancelled) and had a few briefs with the Rhino Weasels here at Eglin's TAC outfit (pre- Air Combat Command). Our intention was to get rid of the "dedicated" boxes that the HARM used on other Navy planes like the Hornet. The Rhino Weasels didn't use them, so we went to them to find out what we could.

********

Folks that haven't seen the STD ARM don't realize how big that sucker was. Looked like a telephone pole to me when the Thud Weasels carried them.

later,

[Snake-1]

Gunno!!!!

Sorry for the delay in answering but wanted to check with my old Bear before I put my foot in my mouth.

In the Fot&E we tested both the 65 A and B and did some work with the EO and the IIR married to the APR-38 (which after upgrading became the 47).
Helluva system!!!!!

To amplify on your discription of the size the the Standard arm. It was the only weapon that I ever carried that I could look at from the front copypit of the 4G and see the front half of the puppy. AND THAT's ON THE INBOARD STATION (the only place we could carry it). And when firing at night YOU NEVER LOOKED AT it!!!!!!

The Snake

[Snake-1]

GUMMO!!!!

Sorry on the misspell of your handle

Snake

[Snake-1]

To all
Been a long while and a half since I've been up on Freq. and have missed the great discussion and BS we shared.

But now have some news that should not be passed up.

For pages and pages now El-Gummo and I have regaled you with stories about how great the A-37 was in the combat environment and how poorly reports of its accomplishments had been published. WELL --- those days are over and we are now getting a little long overdue recognition in a highly recognized aeronautical magazine.

At our last Reunion in Branson Missouri a writer from Air & Space Smithsonian Magazine sat in awe as we regaled him for hours above the grand little bird and its historical accomplishments. Our comments were reflected in his writing and published in the January 2010 edition of the magazine under the title of "Legends of Vietnam: Super Tweet" and ran for eight pages starting on page 42. The cover of the magazine has a photo of Charles Lindbergh and last I saw it was still up on the internet of Air&space Magazine. If you are interested take a read.

And yes TC we did have handle bars at the time.

Gummo -- sorry you missed the last get together as it's main theme was to honor Lou Weber. I took it upon myself to go all the way to the Vice Chief to get a Fly over for the boss. And after reviewing my input and his accomplishment(i.e., flying as a Flying Tiger in WW two,F-86's in Korea and then the super tweet in Nam the Vice said "Hell Yes we want to do this" and the A-10's out of Whitean did a Hell of a job on both timing and position that we got on videotape. It was a great ssend off to a great leader.

THe Snake

[Guysmiley]

That's awesome! The article is also available on the Air & Space website: http://www.airspacemag.com/military-aviation/Legends-of-Vietnam-Super-Tweet.html

[TC]

With a handle bar 'stache and a $h!tload of Snakes & Napes anything is possible!

Great article Snake! Welcome back!

[Snake-1]

TC

Great to be back with this elite bunch!!!!!!

The Snake

[sundowner11]

This might not be exactly air to ground, but I heard somewhere that Vietnam was divided into different administrative zones, I've never been sure what that was all about, someone have an answer?

[Snake-1]

In answer to sundowner

I'm not sure if this could be referred to as administrative zones but the country was divided into Route Pacs in the north, 1 through 6, and in the south Corp areas, 1 through 4. These division, I think, were made up for identification of combat zones for ongoing operations. But I am not sure if they were also used as administrative. If I can find a map o f these areas I will post it for you.

The Snake

[fiskerwad]

These might be of help?
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/maps/images ... earch_str=
fisk

[sundowner11]

To snake and fiskerwad,

That clears things up alot thank you. I was always confused when reading a book about Vietnam they would mention about I Corps or something like that.

[Snake-1]

11

AS promised here are the maps of the Route Pac areas, with special interest areas annonated, and the Corp areas of the South along with the Admin areas. Now if I can figure out how to attach them we're golden.

THe Snake

Has anyone heard from GUMMO lately or are we going to have to send out a res-cap for him.

[Gums]

Salute!

Heyo, Snake-breath!!!

Up in the mountains trying to get this cabin finished and looking at our rejoin site for next year.

TNX for the Corps and Rte pack map. Something to help the yutes.

I worked in the frag shop last four months and it looked like 7th AF worked across the Corps lines only a little. Most missions were allocated according to the Corps and fighter wing locations. Hence, we rarely flew II Corps, and Phu Cat rarely flew IV Corps. in fact, I never saw the Phan Rang Huns flying IV Corps, and it seemed to be rlegated as the sole hunting ground for the Bien Hoa Huns and the Raps.

During Tet of '68 all bets were off and everybody flew all over the place.

During the late years, the A-37's outta Bien Hoa flew Cambodia, II Corps a lot from what I hear.

Over on the F-35 forum I just commented about hi-tevch versus low-tech planes depending on the mission and resources like $$$$. Jump in there.

Gums sends...

[fiskerwad]

To snake and fiskerwad,

That clears things up alot thank you. I was always confused when reading a book about Vietnam they would mention about I Corps or something like that.

You're welcome, sundowner. That same website has some online books on the war that might be of interest.
http://ehistory.osu.edu/osu/books/
fisk