STEALTH- is it worth it?

Discuss air warfare, doctrine, air forces, historic campaigns, etc.

Is the cost of US stealth programs worth it?

Yes
47
84%
No
9
16%
 
Total votes : 56

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F16guy

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Unread post11 Nov 2008, 08:47

Kamov,

Be careful about reading a book on radar principles from Google books and then thinking your an expert. But if in fact you are an em expert working for the government in the RADAR field and discussing what you know about LPI in this forum then you might want to go back and review your non disclosure agreements and wonder why you are even talking about this stuff.

But I suspect you haven't had to sign any of those regarding this topic. That said, while you have satisfied yourself with multiple scenarios of how stealth, the F-22 and AWACS can be defeated, just caveat what your saying by you don't really know and don't pass your words along as anything but conjecture, definitely not expert opinion.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, not trying to, maybe its because of my second glass of scotch.

While all the things you have said are in fact items signature managers of different airframes are concerned about and have taken into consideration.......I am very curious about one thing you said. Where did you get your information on the AA-9 'Anti Radiation' missile for the Mig-31? And if you can, elaborate on it if that too wasn't pure speculation.
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kamov

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Unread post13 Nov 2008, 21:03

Its pure speculation I mean just why would the Ruskies develop an A to A ARM? Nah They would be much better served by developing their own ultra expensive stealth technology rather then go for the Cheap Stealth “Achilles heal” so to speak. Just what other purpose DOES the Mig-31 have? Arms are easier to produce then passive and or active guidance. The Target is doing all the work for you. It wouldn’t surprise me if they have Anti-radar AA-12s as well, the more variable your attack methods are the more likely you are to be successful. Simple Sun Tzu logic still applies even in the digital age.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post14 Nov 2008, 02:39

There is a reason that Russia has a lot of these and other AAMs & SAMs....

1. Their pilots have low moral.
2. They cannot maintain their aircraft very well.
3. Substandard equipment
4. Low pilot training hours.

In general....They suck in A2A combat.

Now to counter this, they have a very extensive SAM system that is very mobile. They build fighters to launch large numbers of AAMs to overwhelm our countermeasures.

So, to answer the original question: Yes Stealth is worth it because it nullifies their entire defensive plan vs aircraft.
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
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kamov

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Unread post17 Nov 2008, 21:51

Oh yeah they suck, that’s why the Indian Air force spanked the US flying Russian Equipment? Or was that a PR move by the USAF to save the flailing F-22 from the AXE? Oh Congress we got our Butts spanked please Oh please let us buy the F-22 so we can be number one again!!! Or are the Indian pilots that much better? What about the Chinese? Do they suck too? Your Right Russian Doctrine is to launch massive amounts of Air to Air missiles to overwhelm an opponent. It’s a cheaper solution then to produce a few Stealthy aircraft that have to take off and land from fixed NON-Stealthy Airbases. Also Tankers are NON-Stealthy as well, of course you could provide them with escorts, however that eats up your limited supply of uber expensive F-22s. It’s much easier to build high speed long range missiles to take stuff like that out.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post18 Nov 2008, 00:18

kamov wrote:Oh yeah they suck, that’s why the Indian Air force spanked the US flying Russian Equipment? Or was that a PR move by the USAF to save the flailing F-22 from the AXE? Oh Congress we got our Butts spanked please Oh please let us buy the F-22 so we can be number one again!!! Or are the Indian pilots that much better?
:lmao: Oh God.. your serious?!?
Do you actually read articles, or just the headlines?

Try this read. There are few things to pay attention to:
According to Colonel Greg Neubeck, deputy commander of operations for the wing’s 3rd Operations Group and exercise director for Cope India, in these offensive and defensive missions, four F-15Cs were usually flying against ten or twelve of the same model Indian fighters.
So a 2.5 / 3 to 1 ratio

The USAF pilots are usually trained to operate in close cooperation of Boeing E-3B ‘Sentry’, Grumman E-2C ‘Hawkeye’ AWACS (Airborne Warning And Control System) and other ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance) platforms and their absence in the Cope India 2004
So, no support.

Media sources stated that those who have read draft copies of the Cope India 2004 report say the IAF Sukhoi-30MKs and USAF F-15 pilots were detecting each other at the same time with their radars, but the Indian pilots were getting off the simulated first shot with their R-27 (AA-10 Alamo) AAMs (Air-to-Air Missiles) and often winning the long-range BVR engagements.
So, no AMRAAM.. only simulated SAR BVR missiles while the IAF was using active missiles.

Now why in the world would we agree to this??? Simple, we were not there to fight as the USAF. We were there to SIMULATE the adverseries that the IAF would likely fight. In ther words, we were the "Red Force". 3rd Wing Explains 'Cope India' Exercise

What about the Chinese? Do they suck too?
If you looked at all my points, you would see that most had to do with training and maintenance.

Your Right Russian Doctrine is to launch massive amounts of Air to Air missiles to overwhelm an opponent. It’s a cheaper solution then to produce a few Stealthy aircraft
You cannot launch at what you cannot see... the whole point of VLO technology.

of course you could provide them with escorts, however that eats up your limited supply of uber expensive F-22s.
Nope, that's what the F-35 is for...
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kamov

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Unread post18 Nov 2008, 16:22

The Tankers are detectable, the bases are detectable, also stealth aircraft are not ALL aspect stealthy, bistatic radar and OTHR are other means being used to detect Stealth. Besides you are also assuming the Russians are not going to deploy any form of Jamming, (Spurious position generators) EMP devices, ect ect.
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SpudmanWP

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Unread post18 Nov 2008, 16:58

kamov wrote:The Tankers are detectable,
With what?? They are at least 400 - 500 miles (if not more) away from the area of combat operations.

kamov wrote:the bases are detectable,
Again, with what?? Oh, I know, Google Earth ;)

Seriously, are you suggesting that we should not use any bases?? Do you think they are not protected? That is what THAAD, MEADS, Patriot, etc, is for, protecting our bases. You forgot the Naval F-35s... No fixed bases and WELL protected by Aegis Cruisers.

kamov wrote:also stealth aircraft are not ALL aspect stealthy,
0 for 3 so far... The F-22 and F-35 are both "all-aspect stealth" fighters. Obviously, the F-22 is better at it, but they both have reduced RCS and reduced IR signatures.

kamov wrote: bistatic radar and OTHR are other means being used to detect Stealth.
Possibly detect, but never track as they are meant as a "tripwire" warning device.

kamov wrote:Besides you are also assuming the Russians are not going to deploy any form of Jamming, (Spurious position generators) EMP devices, ect ect.
Our enemies have been using ECM jamming in every war since Vietnam and we continue to adapt and execute the SEAD/DEAD mission.

btw, nobody has fielded a portable EMP device, so please, stop confusing real life with sci-fi comic books.
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skyhigh

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Unread post27 Feb 2009, 13:04

Think of the S-300 and S-400 family of SAMs.

That's where stealth jets like Raptors come in handy.
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