Russian AF already fighting in Syria
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popcorn wrote:rkap wrote:popcorn wrote:Another monitoring group, the Syrian Nerwork for Human Rights, reports on the impact of the Russian air campaign.
http://sn4hr.org/blog/2015/11/02/14136/
Russian Airstrikes Kills 254 Civilians Including 83 Children and 42 Women
“Russian Forces Kill More Civilians than the International Coalition Killed in a Year”
http://sn4hr.org/wp-content/pdf/english ... ple_en.pdf
Yes some civilians will be killed whoever is bombing.
Are you trying to somehow claim it will only be Russian strikes that will kill civilians.
Are you trying to say only about a week ago when the USA bombed the still operating 5,000mW power station near Aleppo no civilians would have been killed.
This is not the Form for this sort of one eyed Political type discussion but I do think it is time someone puts up a response to those one eyed types who insist of bring it in if the moderators do not stop it.
Nope, US Coalition collateral damage are well publicized and often admitted to. Russian dumb bombs and cruise missike fired from the Ural Sea are apparently so precise that Russia claims only terrorists are killed. Any accusations to the contrary are dismissed. Sorta like the IAAF scandal,, ya know..
The Syrian Nerwork for Human Rights has some credibility but there reports can't be verified. They rely on unnamed sources. e.g. A few weeks back Russia was accused of bombing Hospitals. About 6 from memory in certain villages. When checked the truth was most of those villages did not have Medical facilities and one Medical Clinic reported as destroyed in one village was still there untouched days later. Very much like the reports in US media always stating "unnamed official sources" told us 4 of the Russian Cruise Missiles landed in Iran. When an honest reporter asked real Officials who should know they said. "We have no knowledge of that happening." Of course that does not go on the front page. It ends up on Page 6 at the bottom.
Red Cross a reputable organization said no hospitals have been hit.
Médecins Sans Frontières also does not know of any hospitals hit. Both reputable organizations in Syria operating in Syria who complain loudly if they are hit or any hospital is hit.
Civilians will be killed by both sides whatever but if it does not come from a reliable source with identifiable people on the ground, odds on its propaganda.
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tincansailor wrote:borg wrote:You say Russia and Assad is destroying Syria, I say ISIS and all other factions, backend by Saudi's and US with weapons.
So who is right..
Please read popcorns post on who is killing more civilians vs. terrorists in Syria.
I ask you to use your common sense. Which side has been given the greater weight of support, the Assad Regime, or the Rebels? Obviously the regime has the weight of heavy weapons, armor, artillery, air power, and even poison gas. They have Iranian, Hezbollah, and now even Russian & Cuban forces fighting at their side and they still can't win. If the rebels didn't have the overwhelming majority of the people on their side how could they have kept fighting for 4 years?
ISIS is mostly confined to the NE part of the country. The regime largely leaves them alone. To claim all the rebels are ISIS is simple absurd. As for who is destroying the country, who has been using all this devastating firepower? Not the rebels, they don't have it. Not many of the 9 million internal, and external refuges are Alawites, they only make up about 10% or 2.2 million people of Syria's 22 million people. They also make up the popular base for the regime. 10% can't control the rest once the rest finally decide thieve had enough.
You have nothing to base your assertion on. The facts are all against you. The Assad held area still has about 12-13 million people living there. That includes about 1.6million internal refugees. Assad had more Sunni support than his own tribe by a long way also. Many hold high positions in the Admin. Read a few serious papers done in the past. You can find them with a Google search. The Rebel held areas have about 3-4 million people living there. Yes most have fled from there. All independent Polls conducted before 2011 put Assads support at between 50-70%. Recent foreign polls because they are difficult to do still give his Government between 33% - 60% support. "Google Polls in Syria." What other faction has that support? You can add to Assads support base the Kurds. They don't want the Gulf State supported Al Nusra to win and of course they really hate ISIS. Do a bit of maths and stop relying on broad assertions made by US or British MSM and Politicians. If Assad was sure to lose the USA/Britain/France would have readily accepted Assads offer to hold free open monitored elections under "UN supervision" made about 2 years ago. They would not have insisted he and his key people not stand. Once they refused that offer it became obvious they were not about Democracy. They were about Regime change only. Assad and Russia are not fools. They wanted UN supervised elections. Then the USA could not say they were not fair like they do every time an election does not elect the people they want elected. Al Nusra/Qada has been supported by Qatar and the Saudi's in the main. Proxies of the USA. This is my last post. This sort of crap should not be on this forum.
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They must be imagining these attacks I suppose.. 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/o ... octors-say
Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/o ... octors-say
Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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More damning reports from battlefield. The numbers of casualties treated has doubled since Russia began it's bombing campaign and field hospitals have taken a beating.
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-air-strik ... 25229.html
Are Russian air strikes targeting hospitals in Syria?
Russia has pushed back against complaints that it is targeting medical facilities. Relief workers have been reluctant to share coordinates because of Moscow's backing of the Assad regime.
When it comes to gauging the impact of the Russian intervention in Syria, health workers simply point to the high-stress workdays at Bab Al-Hawa Hospital.
The emergency services facility in northern Syria has been spared by Russian warplanes. But it carried out 12,000 consultations and more than 1,300 operations in October, twice its monthly summer average. The influx came in the wake of attacks on hospitals and clinics in rebel-held areas that humanitarian and medical workers blame on Moscow.
“We are now under greater pressure,” says Amer al-Fajj, who handles public relations at the hospital, which sits near the border with Turkey. “We have a constant stream of casualties. It never stops. All the casualties from Aleppo are coming here.”
Attacks on medical facilities are hardly unusual in the context of the Syrian conflict – as of the end of September, government forces were responsible for 283 out of 313 such attacks, according to Physicians for Human Rights. These have killed nearly 700 medical personnel, pushed doctors to operate in basements, and spurred the construction of underground hospitals.
But the extent to which Russia appears to have targeted hospitals – and the force with which it has struck – has severely complicated relief efforts. One doctor and three first responders have been killed in the escalated bombing, according to the Violations Documentation Center in Syria, a monitoring group. The hospital targeting has also hastened the exodus of Syrian medical workers and made civilian life in rebel-held areas even less bearable, according to relief workers.
“The active engagement of Russia in the conflict and specifically its attacks on the health care infrastructure is exacerbating an already dire humanitarian crisis,” says Widney Brown, programs director at Physicians for Human Rights. “It is inexplicable why Russia would claim it is attacking ISIS, but instead attack hospitals and clinics. All these attacks must stop.”
The advocacy group says three hospitals were hit within four days after Russian air strikes began on Sept. 30 – all of them more than 30 miles from areas held by the Islamic State, which Moscow claims is its primary target. Russia's defense ministry consistently reports carrying out “precision strikes” in areas where hospitals have allegedly been attacked. That suggests Russian forces are either actively targeting these hospitals or that claims of precision are propaganda, the group says.
While field hospitals have adopted tactics to avoid aerial detection, their coordinates – like those of major hospitals – are generally known to the regime. The positions of medical structures have been flagged to the international coalition against the Islamic State but many are reluctant to directly share such sensitive data with Russia, which backs Damascus.
RUSSIANS STRIKES HIT HARD
Sitting in his office in the Turkish town of Reyhanli, across the border from Bab Al-Hawa, Dahar Zedan counts at least 14 Russian attacks on medical points since Sept. 30. Mr. Zedan, a member of the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organizations (UOSSM), says that aside from the apparent targeting, Russian strikes cause far more damage than those of the Syrian regime.
Lots more...
Learn more about Phhsicians for Human rights here,,,
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/about/
http://news.yahoo.com/russian-air-strik ... 25229.html
Are Russian air strikes targeting hospitals in Syria?
Russia has pushed back against complaints that it is targeting medical facilities. Relief workers have been reluctant to share coordinates because of Moscow's backing of the Assad regime.
When it comes to gauging the impact of the Russian intervention in Syria, health workers simply point to the high-stress workdays at Bab Al-Hawa Hospital.
The emergency services facility in northern Syria has been spared by Russian warplanes. But it carried out 12,000 consultations and more than 1,300 operations in October, twice its monthly summer average. The influx came in the wake of attacks on hospitals and clinics in rebel-held areas that humanitarian and medical workers blame on Moscow.
“We are now under greater pressure,” says Amer al-Fajj, who handles public relations at the hospital, which sits near the border with Turkey. “We have a constant stream of casualties. It never stops. All the casualties from Aleppo are coming here.”
Attacks on medical facilities are hardly unusual in the context of the Syrian conflict – as of the end of September, government forces were responsible for 283 out of 313 such attacks, according to Physicians for Human Rights. These have killed nearly 700 medical personnel, pushed doctors to operate in basements, and spurred the construction of underground hospitals.
But the extent to which Russia appears to have targeted hospitals – and the force with which it has struck – has severely complicated relief efforts. One doctor and three first responders have been killed in the escalated bombing, according to the Violations Documentation Center in Syria, a monitoring group. The hospital targeting has also hastened the exodus of Syrian medical workers and made civilian life in rebel-held areas even less bearable, according to relief workers.
“The active engagement of Russia in the conflict and specifically its attacks on the health care infrastructure is exacerbating an already dire humanitarian crisis,” says Widney Brown, programs director at Physicians for Human Rights. “It is inexplicable why Russia would claim it is attacking ISIS, but instead attack hospitals and clinics. All these attacks must stop.”
The advocacy group says three hospitals were hit within four days after Russian air strikes began on Sept. 30 – all of them more than 30 miles from areas held by the Islamic State, which Moscow claims is its primary target. Russia's defense ministry consistently reports carrying out “precision strikes” in areas where hospitals have allegedly been attacked. That suggests Russian forces are either actively targeting these hospitals or that claims of precision are propaganda, the group says.
While field hospitals have adopted tactics to avoid aerial detection, their coordinates – like those of major hospitals – are generally known to the regime. The positions of medical structures have been flagged to the international coalition against the Islamic State but many are reluctant to directly share such sensitive data with Russia, which backs Damascus.
RUSSIANS STRIKES HIT HARD
Sitting in his office in the Turkish town of Reyhanli, across the border from Bab Al-Hawa, Dahar Zedan counts at least 14 Russian attacks on medical points since Sept. 30. Mr. Zedan, a member of the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organizations (UOSSM), says that aside from the apparent targeting, Russian strikes cause far more damage than those of the Syrian regime.
Lots more...
Learn more about Phhsicians for Human rights here,,,
http://physiciansforhumanrights.org/about/
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Human Rights Watch reports on a pair of deadly airstrikes it attributes to Russia based on feedback from survivors.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/25/rus ... air-strike
Russia/Syria: Possibly Unlawful Russian Air Strikes
New York) – At least two air strikes in northern Homs on October 15, 2015, that local residents believed to be Russian, apparently violated the laws of war. The air strikes killed a total of 59 civilians, residents said, including 33 children and a commander of the local armed opposition group. Russia should investigate the attacks.
The deadliest attack hit a house in the village of Ghantou, where the extended Assaf family had taken shelter, killing a reported 46 family members, all civilians, including 32 children and 12 women, first responders and local activists said. The victims were related to a local commander affiliated with the opposition Free Syrian Army (FSA), but witnesses said that he was away from the home at the front lines. The second air strike, on the neighboring town of Ter Maaleh, hit near a bakery, and according to local witnesses, killed at least 13 civilians as well as a local FSA commander who was a Syrian army defector. It is not clear whether he was the intended target, as neither Russia nor Syria have issued statements about the specific air strikes...Local residents told Human Rights Watch said they believe the strikes were by Russian forces because the sound of the planes was different from the sound made by Syrian air force planes, and the Russians fly much higher. The Russian news agency Interfax reported that the Russian air force assisted the Syrian armed forces with an air offensive in Homs on October 15.
More at the link above.
https://www.hrw.org/about
Human Rights Watch is a nonprofit, nongovernmental human rights organization made up of roughly 400 staff members around the globe. Its staff consists of human rights professionals including country experts, lawyers, journalists, and academics of diverse backgrounds and nationalities. Established in 1978, Human Rights Watch is known for its accurate fact-finding, impartial reporting, effective use of media, and targeted advocacy, often in partnership with local human rights groups. Each year, Human Rights Watch publishes more than 100 reports and briefings on human rights conditions in some 90 countries, generating extensive coverage in local and international media. With the leverage this brings, Human Rights Watch meets with governments, the United Nations, regional groups like the African Union and the European Union, financial institutions, and corporations to press for changes in policy and practice that promote human rights and justice around the world.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2015/10/25/rus ... air-strike
Russia/Syria: Possibly Unlawful Russian Air Strikes
New York) – At least two air strikes in northern Homs on October 15, 2015, that local residents believed to be Russian, apparently violated the laws of war. The air strikes killed a total of 59 civilians, residents said, including 33 children and a commander of the local armed opposition group. Russia should investigate the attacks.
The deadliest attack hit a house in the village of Ghantou, where the extended Assaf family had taken shelter, killing a reported 46 family members, all civilians, including 32 children and 12 women, first responders and local activists said. The victims were related to a local commander affiliated with the opposition Free Syrian Army (FSA), but witnesses said that he was away from the home at the front lines. The second air strike, on the neighboring town of Ter Maaleh, hit near a bakery, and according to local witnesses, killed at least 13 civilians as well as a local FSA commander who was a Syrian army defector. It is not clear whether he was the intended target, as neither Russia nor Syria have issued statements about the specific air strikes...Local residents told Human Rights Watch said they believe the strikes were by Russian forces because the sound of the planes was different from the sound made by Syrian air force planes, and the Russians fly much higher. The Russian news agency Interfax reported that the Russian air force assisted the Syrian armed forces with an air offensive in Homs on October 15.
More at the link above.
https://www.hrw.org/about
Human Rights Watch is a nonprofit, nongovernmental human rights organization made up of roughly 400 staff members around the globe. Its staff consists of human rights professionals including country experts, lawyers, journalists, and academics of diverse backgrounds and nationalities. Established in 1978, Human Rights Watch is known for its accurate fact-finding, impartial reporting, effective use of media, and targeted advocacy, often in partnership with local human rights groups. Each year, Human Rights Watch publishes more than 100 reports and briefings on human rights conditions in some 90 countries, generating extensive coverage in local and international media. With the leverage this brings, Human Rights Watch meets with governments, the United Nations, regional groups like the African Union and the European Union, financial institutions, and corporations to press for changes in policy and practice that promote human rights and justice around the world.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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popcorn wrote:They must be imagining these attacks I suppose..
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/o ... octors-say
Four Syrian hospitals bombed since Russian airstrikes began, doctors say
I never said no hospitals would be damaged. If you read the Guardian article what it says are some hospitals have been damaged - not targeted. It also repeats US propaganda as usual about ISIS not being close to the medical facilities ignoring the fact Al Nusra/Al Qaeda hold most of the populated areas close to Assad held territory. They are still terrorists and like most terrorists will position themselves close to medical and civilian facilities etc. ISIS controls very few populated areas. They mainly control desert areas and some of the key Oil infrastructure. That's how they get most of there funding. Even the Saudi's will not fund and arm ISIS to any degree.
At a time like this all primarily US and British based organizations that tend to duplicate perfectly good well established UN organizations and other long standing world organizations are not reliable sources for unbiased information. Just like any a Moscow based welfare organization operating there would tend to be biased. Fortunately for the USA Russia has been very good in this way in Afghanistan. With all the Russian contractors based there they easily could have pushed distortions about US actions there every week. They have not done that. They have acted like adults understanding in a war situation it is easy to criticize and mistakes are made and accidents do occur. They have not done that acting like adults and have been happy to see the US coalition try to rid Afghanistan of terrorists. Compare that to the childish crap coming out of the USA in recent times.
One thing is certain. Most of the daily crap appearing in US/British MSM and being stated by certain loose mouth Politicians in the media at the beginning of Russian direct involvement was simply disinformation. A lot of it did come from US/British NGO's or the other biased Syrian sources with vested interests in the area.
Interesting to see yesterday after the terrorist attacks in France and more talks the USA is now finally admitting Al Nusra is a terrorist organization in Syria and a legitimate target. A group they have been criticizing Russia for bombing from day one with the remark "Russia is not attacking ISIS" insinuating Russia was bombing "good guys". No Russia was attacking all terrorist groups in Syria. They even challenged the USA to tell them where all there 'moderates' were so they would not accidentally bomb them. No response. The opposite of the USA coalition that was happy to allow terrorists 'Al Nusra' help them in there stated aim of bringing down Assad and his Government. Side with terrorists to achieve there objective. Regime change. Worry about the consequences later. The only solution in Syria is a Political one. That must include Assad and his Government and other groupings in free monitored elections sooner or later. Exclude the Assad faction which probably has the most support and conflict will continue. It should have happened a few years ago when Assad pushed by Russia did agree to free monitored elections being held in Syria with United Nations supervision. Not US/British/French supervised elections. That is why we have the United Nations. Putin sums it up well when he repeatedly says "The people of Syria will decide what Government they have in Syria." The above are the key issues. Not all the minor school girl type crap of "You did this", "You said this" etc. Spite-full childish crap.
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I guess it was too much to expect rkap to keep to his word and desist from fruther posting. This may play well to the Russian masses, sadly.. Oh well... people can make up their own minds which side's arguments are more reasonable, logical and credible.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Hey russians. Can you think of ONE time when you were capable of criticizing your governments foreign policy instead of finding justifications for it? Do you realize that in healthy society the overall tone is almost always the other way around?
Compared to russia, US propaganda in comparison does not exist. Jupiter vs ant
Compared to russia, US propaganda in comparison does not exist. Jupiter vs ant
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Iranian air force escorting a Bear apparently, at 1.26 there appears to be an F14. If this is recent footage then it's good to see a flying Tomcat, it's been a while.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ascSnBbxfaU#t=156
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ascSnBbxfaU#t=156
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 46206.html
Russian pilots regularly flying in to NATO controlled airspace was EVENTUALLY going to result in something like this. Turkish forces are reporting the aircraft was warned before being engaged, and it is currently being reported by Turkish media the aircraft was shot down by Turkish fighters–not a surface-to-air missile. Russian news media is now reporting the aircraft is indeed a Russian Air Force warplane."
Looks like the Turks shot down a Russian Air Force Sukhoi Su-24 Fencer after an apparent airspace violation
Russian pilots regularly flying in to NATO controlled airspace was EVENTUALLY going to result in something like this. Turkish forces are reporting the aircraft was warned before being engaged, and it is currently being reported by Turkish media the aircraft was shot down by Turkish fighters–not a surface-to-air missile. Russian news media is now reporting the aircraft is indeed a Russian Air Force warplane."
Looks like the Turks shot down a Russian Air Force Sukhoi Su-24 Fencer after an apparent airspace violation
There's an old rule among many in the fighter procurement business: "Too Early to Tell, Too Late to Stop".
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kukemaim wrote:It seems the pilots were captured by Turkish forces. I wonder on which side of the border
Source? It's all speculation on the TV.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
CSAF Gen. Mark Welsh
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Old news now but we know one pilot was shot in his chute after ejection , the other made it back after a special forces Op to recover him without too much trouble, he was in the hands of Assads forces.
What is laughable is that the SU-24 pilot read from a script under interview that he heard no warnings and then the Turks release an audio recording of the warnings given to the Russians , how can anyone expect us to take anything the Russians say seriously?
What is laughable is that the SU-24 pilot read from a script under interview that he heard no warnings and then the Turks release an audio recording of the warnings given to the Russians , how can anyone expect us to take anything the Russians say seriously?
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Deadly 'Russian airstrike' hits market in Syria's Idlib
29 Nov 2015 12:10 GMT
At least 44 people were killed and scores wounded on Sunday in a suspected Russian air strike on a crowded marketplace in Idlib province, activists have told Al Jazeera.
The strikes hit the town of Ariha, which is controlled by the Army of Conquest, a rebel alliance which includes the Nusra Front, the UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said.
In addition to the market, several other areas of the town were hit, the group said.
Local news channel Ariha al-Youm reported cluster bombs were used in the raid by a Russian fighter jet.
The pro-opposition Orient TV reported an initial death toll of 40.
However, Rami Abdulrahman, director of the observatory, put the death toll much higher, saying at least 60 people were killed and wounded in the attack....
The Army of Conquest alliance seized Ariha in May after heavy fighting with forces loyal to the Syrian army, in an offensive that resulted in the entire province falling into rebel hands.
Moscow says it targets the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) and other "terrorists," but critics accuse it of targeting other rebel groups more than ISIL.
Russian air strikes have previously hit several Army of Conquest positions in Idlib province.
The province is not a stronghold of ISIL, which controls wide areas of eastern Syria.
Source: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/2 ... 03978.html
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