Usage of Russian Airshow Maneuvers in AA Combat

ptplauthor · by **ptplauthor** » 17 Apr 2009, 15:15

In actual combat, where this maneuver seems like a life-or-death cliffhanger, I'd try it if the circumstances allow, or my jet allows.

....and I guess I'll be the first to ask....exactly how many hours do you have at the controls of an actual combat aircraft?

thegreekness · by **thegreekness** » 17 Apr 2009, 16:34

Answer that ^ then read this.

It would probably work in close proximity - ie: WWI/II era planes, but now it would just present an even bigger, slower target for a missile to hit

Survey says: BFD -Big Foxtrotting DEATHTRAP

LordOfBunnies · by **LordOfBunnies** » 17 Apr 2009, 17:32

The problem is, no WW1/WW2 era plane could handle the g's and I have on idea how the engine or prop would fair with such a manouver. Probably screw with your guns too. These manouvers were invented to sell aircraft. Now the Sukhois are really manouverable, but the fancy tricks will never make up for good pilot training.

Consensus seems to be... if you're going to try the cobra (or any of the Pugachev manouvers) in combat have a hand on the ejection handle.

thegreekness · by **thegreekness** » 17 Apr 2009, 19:08

There was this one guy who did a variation of it in a Mustang, according to "Dogfights." He yanks the stick back to stall the plane, then goes full down rudder to drop the nose. He now has zero airspeed and is pointed down. The torque of the Rolls-Royce V-12 Merlin flips the entire plane around and drops it a few thousand feet before it regains flying speed. Its on youtube

http://calculatepie.com/index.php/01011 ... 578743q31#

This is NOT the move, but its similar. and WAY cooler.

skyhigh · by **skyhigh** » 18 Apr 2009, 07:42

The Lufbery Circle, aka the Wagon Wheel is a defensive aerial combat tactic first used in WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lufbery_circle

This tactic was also used in WWII.

VPAF MiG-17s used the wagon wheel to good effect against USAF/USN Phantoms not equipped with a gun and the AIM-9s could not pull high G tight turns.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWc-xgkmqOk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiuAxisJZ-0

In your opinion, do you think the Lufbery Circle is a mutual defensive lifesaver where you and your squadron mates could cover each other's backs or a total deathtrap where you and your squadron mates would be picked off one by one?

ptplauthor · by **ptplauthor** » 18 Apr 2009, 16:50

1. If it is or if it isn't, nobody professional is likely to discuss tactics.
2. With today's BVR capable missiles, I'm pretty sure there's a slim chance that there will be enough bandits left to make that maneuver. Therefore it would only be useful if both sides were down to guns.

This video is Duke Cunningham explaining his experience on 10 May 1972. At about 1:30 he talks about MiG-17s in a "Defensive Wheel." Their pilots were probably taught the tactic because the Fresco's main armament is cannon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZGGbNuXxkI

F16guy · by **F16guy** » 18 Apr 2009, 22:49

ptplauthor,
I know your asking skyhigh how many hours and my guess is it is zero, in Military aircraft. He sounds like he is very young and could possibly want to join the Royal Australian Air Force in the future based upon his interest and questions posted here.

Me, I've got two thousand + hours in a Mil Jet. I would not use the maneuver to win a dogfight, I'd use it to not die in a dogfight within the next couple of seconds.

Oh, and the guys I fight that can do this maneuver...don't do it.

LordOfBunnies · by **LordOfBunnies** » 18 Apr 2009, 23:07

^^ What he said. The wagon wheel is basically setting a very obvious trap for someone. The F-4 drivers were taught to fly tangent to the circle and make passes at the guys trying this, not to get involved with them. Modern combat... this movie is basically not possible as it was originally done with gun fighters, unless you have fighters you're trying to throw away.

Now I could see doing this with drones to make someone expend some missiles or fall into a pop up threat but that's about it.

TC · by TC » 21 Apr 2009, 05:31

Folks, I took the 3 current topics that went along a similar subject matter, and merged them into one topic. This is now a catch-all topic for the maneuvers Russian pilots wow the crowds with at airshows, and why a "gee whiz" demo flight does not necessarily translate to success in AA combat.