Build your own Russian version of Chinese J-31?

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 08:44

weasel1962 wrote:I posted wiki just to illustrate that the simplest of google searches in something as basic as wiki could have checked the veracity of your claims. Sure, your stand is the Mig-41 is fiction. Noted.



So, what is the solution for the Russian Air Force and Navy in coming decade. As a number of countries field 5th Generation Stealth Fighters.


In your opinion...... :wink:
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geforcerfx

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 08:53

Upgraded Flankers with a limited number of Su-57s all carrying advanced hypersonic weapons and being feed information from a advanced ground based radar network using multiple static and mobile radar solutions networked together. They are in the early stages of most of this if they choose. Russia is on the defensive at this point, they need enough stealth aircraft to offer a surprise and challenge to any attacker working in coordination with 4+++ gen aircraft and there advance long range IADS(S400,S500), they have no offensive capability on there Western or Eastern front anymore and will never gain it back.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 09:14

geforcerfx wrote:Upgraded Flankers with a limited number of Su-57s all carrying advanced hypersonic weapons and being feed information from a advanced ground based radar network using multiple static and mobile radar solutions networked together. They are in the early stages of most of this if they choose. Russia is on the defensive at this point, they need enough stealth aircraft to offer a surprise and challenge to any attacker working in coordination with 4+++ gen aircraft and there advance long range IADS(S400,S500), they have no offensive capability on there Western or Eastern front anymore and will never gain it back.



A handful of Su-57's that have questionable capability. Which, are supported by a large number of nearly obsolete 4th Generation Fighters. (even with S400/S500) Isn't going to be much of a threat.......


This is why I've suggested that Russia should adopt the Chinese J-31. Which, they could produce under license. They also could spin it as a co-developed fighter. Which, would have considerable Russian Content. (Engines, Avionics, Weapons, etc.)

That said, I am open to "alternatives" but haven't heard a good one yet........ :?
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 26 Feb 2020, 11:24, edited 1 time in total.
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weasel1962

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 10:17

"This is why I've suggest that Russia should adopt the Chinese J-31. Which, they could produce under license."

Now the above is the classic example of what pure fiction really is.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 11:14

weasel1962 wrote:"This is why I've suggest that Russia should adopt the Chinese J-31. Which, they could produce under license."

Now the above is the classic example of what pure fiction really is.


Let's look at some simple facts...

1.) The Su-57 is suffering a number of technical problems. Most regard it as a LO (low observable) Stealth Fighter. (at best) Not a true VLO (very low observable) Stealth Fighter like the F-22/F-35 Class.

2.) Russia is only purchasing it in small numbers. (~76 over several years)

3.) They can't find a single export customer.... :shock:

4.) Competitors like China and the US will have a thousand plus Stealth Fighters. Before Russia has a hundred...(this doesn't even count other Stealth Fighter Programs like the TFX, K-FX, AMCA, etc.)

5.) Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world’s largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. (alot to protect)

6.) It would take Russia at least 20 years to develop a replacement for the Su-57. Assuming it had the resources to do so...(very questionable)

7.) Stealth Fighters are "vastly" more capable than existing 4/4.5 Generation Fighters. So, any Air Force relying on the latter as their primary fighter. Would be at a great disadvantage....


Honestly, all I was suggesting was a possible alternative! Nothing more nothing less...... :roll:
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madrat

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 13:22

The last I saw, NK-32 is a bomber engine and the priority of its evolution is for Tu-160M2 and PAK DA.

Deriving a fighter from it would bolster the bomber programs and allow for drawing down MiG-29K/M2/35 development which has been a dead end since 1991.
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milosh

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Unread post26 Feb 2020, 21:51

Corsair1963 wrote:Let's look at some simple facts...

1.) The Su-57 is suffering a number of technical problems. Most regard it as a LO (low observable) Stealth Fighter. (at best) Not a true VLO (very low observable) Stealth Fighter like the F-22/F-35 Class.


So you are saying they couldn't make simple design as J-31?

Su-57 is design as it is designed because of requirement to carry lot fuel but also heavy weapon load. J-31 couldn't carry
even one of those cruise missiles:
https://cdn2.desu-usergeneratedcontent. ... 737227.gif

5.7m long.

Corsair1963 wrote:5.) Covering an expanse of over 6.6 million square miles, Russia is the world’s largest country by landmass, beating out runner-up Canada by around 2.8 million square miles. (alot to protect)


And how you expect to do that with something like J-31? It probable have noticeable smaller range then F-35. Also if you look what isn't protected by massive SAM and radar network, that is wast Siberia which can't be attacked by enemy fighters at all.

Siberia is protected by MiG-31BM fleet.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post27 Feb 2020, 01:45

milosh wrote:
Su-57 is design as it is designed because of requirement to carry lot fuel but also heavy weapon load. J-31 couldn't carry
even one of those cruise missiles:
https://cdn2.desu-usergeneratedcontent. ... 737227.gif

5.7m long.


Russia is only buying a handful of Su-57's! So, what does it matter. If, it has a little more range or payload??? Plus, from all reports it's not living up to expectations. Which, is why India left the program and Russia is buying so few....


Also, funny that mid-sized fighters are in such high demand and the best selling fighters in the market place. Yet, according you see little value in them?

Honestly, a countless array of missions that such a fighter can perform. Which, is why the Vipers, Hornets, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s, Rafales, Typhoons, etc. etc. etc. are such big sellers!


Siberia is protected by MiG-31BM fleet.


No match for a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter. So, what's your point???
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milosh

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Unread post27 Feb 2020, 17:53

Corsair1963 wrote:Honestly, a countless array of missions that such a fighter can perform. Which, is why the Vipers, Hornets, Mirage 2000s, Mig-29s, Rafales, Typhoons, etc. etc. etc. are such big sellers!


Flankers are most exported modern fighters (sold, licenced or copied) in last couple of decades.

Medium fighter would be nice to have but for now it isn't top priority for Russia. Maybe if MiG-35 production goes as it is planned, they could consider some medium stealth in future using MiG-35 as base, but only if they find partner. UAE was mentioned earlier but that is more UAE pressure on US to sell them F-35 then real project.

Corsair1963 wrote:
Siberia is protected by MiG-31BM fleet.


No match for a 5th Generation Stealth Fighter. So, what's your point???


MiG-31 was design to cover gaps in SAM coverage of Asian part of Russia (behind Ural mountains) what fighter it would meet that deep in Russia???

And even if MiG-31 meet some stealth why do you think it would be easy for stealth do deal with MiG-31? Just look how many missiles were fired on SR-71 on MiG-25 as example.
Last edited by milosh on 27 Feb 2020, 21:01, edited 1 time in total.
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mixelflick

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Unread post27 Feb 2020, 19:04

Corsair1963 wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
I thought the Russians were proceeding with the SU-57, despite the crash?



Russia still plans on acquiring the 75-76 Su-57's over the next 8-9 years. Yet, that would only be enough for 2-3 Squadrons. While, the Russian Air Force and Navy need hundreds. If, not thousands of Stealth Fighters.

Also, the Su-57 is a "heavy" fighter and not ideally suited to many missions.

What Russia really needs in a mid-sized Strike Fighter in the F-35/J-31 Class. Which, she can mass produced for both services and export.

Honestly, in my opinion Russia made nothing short of a colossal mistake. When it decided to develop the PAK-FA (Su-57) over the LMFS!

Now will the failure of the SU-57. The non-Western Fighter Market will likely move from Russia to CHINA!


I would agree with this. In retrospect, building a "heavy"/expensive stealth fighter was a mistake - if you're thinking about serving the world market. Unlike the F-35 though, Russia designs for Russia first. In some cases, this has worked for the world market (look at how many Flankers were exported/produced under license).

So why hasn't it worked for the SU-57?

Probably cost (related to stealth, avionics, new weapons). I rather doubt anyone smaller than India/China will have the $ to operate even a small fleet of SU-57. And if you want all those fancy new hypersonic missiles to go with it? They won't be cheap either. The first production model crashing sure didn't help. In the past, Russian fighters bought you a lot of capability for your money (at least up front). That's not the case with the SU-57. Sure, you'll get some next gen capabilities - but you'll be paying through the nose for it. Russia itself is having difficulty building/paying for 76 of them. I get the impression mass production may not be possible, with each individual airframe being its own little project. What does that tell a prospective buyer?

With respect to the Mig-41, it may or may not be a real project. I tend to think they're working on something, but let's be honest: The cost associated with a mach 4 fighter/mach 4, manned anything is going to be astronomical. I just don't see them producing both the SU-57 plus Mig-41, especially when the Mig-41 isn't going to be exported. Every Russian fighter flying for Russia that's done well (post collapse) has done so with many export models. The exception being the Mig-31, and it could be argued the Mig-25's sold to Libya, Syria etc. helped.

The SU-57 and Mig-41 don't speak to that dynamic, so it's doubtful either will be successful IMO...
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vilters

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Unread post28 Feb 2020, 00:40

Russia is nowhere.

They needed bombers, and what do they do?
Rebuild 160's.

They had a good shot with the Flanker and it is going down ever since.
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mixelflick

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Unread post28 Feb 2020, 17:10

vilters wrote:Russia is nowhere.

They needed bombers, and what do they do?
Rebuild 160's.

They had a good shot with the Flanker and it is going down ever since.


May I ask what you mean by that.... had a good shot with the Flanker/going down ever since?

I would agree that from here, the Russian Air Force will consist largely of a mish-mash of advanced Flanker derivatives. Hell it already is. Token amounts of Mig-35's and SU-57's will round out the force...

Pivotal moment IMO: They can't play the stealth game, and as such will quickly become a 3rd rate air force. Especially when you consider lesser nations (in size/GDP) will be flying F-35's...
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boogieman

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Unread post02 Mar 2020, 04:10

Corsair1963 wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:Upgraded Flankers with a limited number of Su-57s all carrying advanced hypersonic weapons and being feed information from a advanced ground based radar network using multiple static and mobile radar solutions networked together. They are in the early stages of most of this if they choose. Russia is on the defensive at this point, they need enough stealth aircraft to offer a surprise and challenge to any attacker working in coordination with 4+++ gen aircraft and there advance long range IADS(S400,S500), they have no offensive capability on there Western or Eastern front anymore and will never gain it back.



A handful of Su-57's that have questionable capability. Which, are supported by a large number of nearly obsolete 4th Generation Fighters. (even with S400/S500) Isn't going to be much of a threat.......


This is why I've suggested that Russia should adopt the Chinese J-31. Which, they could produce under license. They also could spin it as a co-developed fighter. Which, would have considerable Russian Content. (Engines, Avionics, Weapons, etc.)

That said, I am open to "alternatives" but haven't heard a good one yet........ :?


I think you'll find the Russian GBAD network is a pretty significant threat. When you combine that with the sizeable advantage they still enjoy on the ground vs our own ground forces in Europe, their fixed wing assets (less modern though they may be) are just gravy. Depending on the scenario you're talking about, I think it's still appropriate to regard them as a serious peer level adversary in the European theatre.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post02 Mar 2020, 05:43

boogieman wrote:
I think you'll find the Russian GBAD network is a pretty significant threat. When you combine that with the sizeable advantage they still enjoy on the ground vs our own ground forces in Europe, their fixed wing assets (less modern though they may be) are just gravy. Depending on the scenario you're talking about, I think it's still appropriate to regard them as a serious peer level adversary in the European theatre.



Clearly, Russia should be considered a serious military threat. Yet, that hardly means they're "King Kong" either...


In addition far better to over estimate an opponent than underestimate one. Which, is what the West did with the former USSR. (Soviet Union)
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Unread post02 Mar 2020, 08:49

Of course. In my view the greatest challenge to our airpower in a confrontation with Russia would not be their fighters - it would be the threat to our airfields and parked aircraft from BM and LACM strikes.

On mainland Europe there would also be the problem of massed Russian armoured formations simply overrunning friendly airfields. The sheer volume of armour and artillery they could bring to bear is pretty enormous. Meanwhile the land force the west could meet them with has... atrophied over the years... :?
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