Su-35. How the hell it did that?

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eloise

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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 03:52

zero-one wrote:Okay I know this is most probably wrong. Sadly I'm not as knowledgeable as some of our resident engineers out here to explain why its wrong. But if it's actually right, I'll genuinely be surprised

Bad news for AIM-120D - physics says Su-35 can out-turn the AIM-120D.

Mathematics here is a bit tricky, but works like this: missile must follow track of turning aircraft, and G force in a turn is square of true speed. After firing from Mach 1.5, slow to Mach 0.95 and descent to 12,000 metres – this about 900 kph and good turning speed for Sukhoi.

AIM-120D rocket second pulse burning push speed up to about Mach 3.5. Ratio 3.5 / 0.95 = 3.7 which squared is 13.5. So AIM-120D must pull 13.5 times G bigger than Sukhoi. Some say biggest possible G of AIM-120D is 30, so divide by 13.5 and get Sukhoi to pull only 2.2 G to outturn AIM-120D.

Say AIM-120D lights seeker at 20 km, missile closing at 3,700 kph. So, takes 20 seconds to reach Sukhoi. Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) tells direction of incoming missile, so Sukhoi turns to put missile in rear quarter and starts high-G, jinking barrel roll more than 2 G. More likely closer to 5G. Sukhoi has thrust vector jets (TVC nozzles), so turning at 5 G for 20 seconds no problem. Missile cannot track barrel roll, so fly past and loses lock.

Sukhoi's flight controls computers also have software written into them to specifically avoid the AIM-120D missile. Arm system, and when OLS-35 or RWR see incoming missile, audio horn sound and will Sukhoi fly itself on missile avoiding path.

Fly all air dominance missions with KEDR towed decoy, so if AIM-120D has lucky crossing, it may fly after the decoy instead. Also have new wingtip pods for radio electronic combat (Electronic Warfare) which twist phase of radar wave around (Crosseye jammer for phase front deception) so the AIM-120D's single pulse (моноимпульсная антенна – monopulse antenna in AIM-120D) tracker confused .

that is full of sh*t
Air to air missiles don't follow the exact track of turning aircraft, no missile in the past or future have that stupid behavior. Air to air missile uses what known as proportional navigation, instead of homing at the current location of aircraft, they home at the future position of aircraft, this location is calculated by having the heading, speed of enemy and the distance to them. And just because Su-35 turn 90 degrees doesn't mean AIM-120D need to also turn 90 degrees to intercept it.When enemy turn, the only thing that matter for the missile is the distance between target new predicted location vs the target old predicted location. Depend on where AIM-120 getting mid course correction by datalink, it might need to turn only a few degrees to counter a 90 degrees course change by Su-35. This is hard to imagine so a picture speak a thousand words:
6622BAA7-57AF-4618-8ADC-F3423C2BCDA2.jpeg

If you shows him this picture, he gonna tell you, because the Sukhoi's flight controls computers also have software written into them to specifically avoid the AIM-120D missile and with RWR and OLS-35, it will turn at just exact right moment to force AIM-120 to make a hard turn. That is wrong on two parts: firstly, there is no auto missile dodge pilot on any aircraft, including Su-35 and RWR and MWS only give the heading of the missile instead of distance to them. Secondly, missiles are always launched in salvo of 2-3 missiles at a few seconds interval. So the turn that is at the right moment to dodge the first missile isn't at the right moment to dodge the second and the third.
And he clearly doesn't know that air density affect aircraft turning ability, at 12 km - 39,370 feet height, the air density is only a fraction of sea level air. Su-35 can't maintain 5G for 20 seconds at 39,370 feet. For example, a clean F-15C has excess lift and thrust to maintain 9G at sea level and Mach0.9 , but at 40,000 feet it can only sustain 2.5G at the same speed, Su-35 is a good aircraft but unless it fly on magic, it will have the same problem
BFD69C63-8947-4949-B6E1-E45548538134.jpeg
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 06:15

zero-one wrote:Okay I know this is most probably wrong. Sadly I'm not as knowledgeable as some of our resident engineers out here to explain why its wrong. But if it's actually right, I'll genuinely be surprised

Bad news for AIM-120D - physics says Su-35 can out-turn the AIM-120D.

Mathematics here is a bit tricky, but works like this: missile must follow track of turning aircraft, and G force in a turn is square of true speed. After firing from Mach 1.5, slow to Mach 0.95 and descent to 12,000 metres – this about 900 kph and good turning speed for Sukhoi.

AIM-120D rocket second pulse burning push speed up to about Mach 3.5. Ratio 3.5 / 0.95 = 3.7 which squared is 13.5. So AIM-120D must pull 13.5 times G bigger than Sukhoi. Some say biggest possible G of AIM-120D is 30, so divide by 13.5 and get Sukhoi to pull only 2.2 G to outturn AIM-120D.

Say AIM-120D lights seeker at 20 km, missile closing at 3,700 kph. So, takes 20 seconds to reach Sukhoi. Radar Warning Receiver (RWR) tells direction of incoming missile, so Sukhoi turns to put missile in rear quarter and starts high-G, jinking barrel roll more than 2 G. More likely closer to 5G. Sukhoi has thrust vector jets (TVC nozzles), so turning at 5 G for 20 seconds no problem. Missile cannot track barrel roll, so fly past and loses lock.

Sukhoi's flight controls computers also have software written into them to specifically avoid the AIM-120D missile. Arm system, and when OLS-35 or RWR see incoming missile, audio horn sound and will Sukhoi fly itself on missile avoiding path.

Fly all air dominance missions with KEDR towed decoy, so if AIM-120D has lucky crossing, it may fly after the decoy instead. Also have new wingtip pods for radio electronic combat (Electronic Warfare) which twist phase of radar wave around (Crosseye jammer for phase front deception) so the AIM-120D's single pulse (моноимпульсная антенна – monopulse antenna in AIM-120D) tracker confused .


This analysis is total crap, the missile intercept is not supposed to match the fighter's radius, so the very foundation of the argument is debunked.
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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 12:24

It's a good thing they cannot detect the incoming AIM-120D. The Sukhoi would have to fly constant 3G turns reducing effective range of their operations about 85%...
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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 19:42

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Would not want to be in the SU-35 trying to pull this off...

The notion that a fighter aircraft can pull more g's than a missile (especially an AIM-120D) seems... peculiar. Even after its fuel has long burned out, that AIM-120D is going to be able to crank itself around a lot more aggressively than an SU-35, SU-57 or SU-whathaveyou.

This looks like it was taken from MilitaryWatchMag, or like Kremlin mouthpiece..


We have pilot which evade couple AIM-120C (three or four) in half working MiG-29 so it is possible. Su-35 pilot have much better SA so it can use agility of plane to maximum.

Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27.

It will bend space time and physics.
Mostly physics.
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milosh

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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 20:37

mixelflick wrote:milosh wrote:

"Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27"

The Russians imagine a lot of things: Raptor like engines, supercarriers, combat capable stealth aircraft etc.

OTOH, we actually have Raptor engines (and the follow on to that, the F-135). We've built and fielded a super-carrier (actually, about a dozen). And we have not 1, but 3 combat capable stealth aircraft (B-2, F-22, F-35). In fact, we've retired more combat capable stealth aircraft than Russia has fielded (F-117).


But what you non stop miss is SU-57 engine of tech on other fighters. You can put in any Russian flanker and also for J-10 and J-20. So I really don't see why you can't accept it will happen? You mentioned why Russians is going with Su-57 when all tech can install in Su-35 and now you want to consider type-30 for Su-35?!?

Good thing Russians didn't had money to go with nonsense super carrier because as it look like this is dusk of carriers.

Btw biggest potential of russian navy is in deep, subs. For example 949AM carry 72 antiship supersonic Oniks and not so far away is we see it armed with Zircons:
http://www.hisutton.com/images/Ru_OSCAR-II_Cutaway.jpg

So one 949AM carry three time more then cold war version and those new missiles are much smaller on radar then massive Granit. Granit tubes:
https://i.imgur.com/Z0gQPTl.jpeg
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Unread post29 Apr 2020, 22:25

Ohh, so we can add "super submarines" to the list of fictional things the russian military is supposed to own.

Meanwhile, the only things they never fail to deliver are failed projects, economics set backs and nuclear mishaps.

The joy of the east: literal bat sh*t virus and nuclear poisoning, yay.
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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 03:10

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:milosh wrote:

"Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27"

The Russians imagine a lot of things: Raptor like engines, supercarriers, combat capable stealth aircraft etc.

OTOH, we actually have Raptor engines (and the follow on to that, the F-135). We've built and fielded a super-carrier (actually, about a dozen). And we have not 1, but 3 combat capable stealth aircraft (B-2, F-22, F-35). In fact, we've retired more combat capable stealth aircraft than Russia has fielded (F-117).


But what you non stop miss is SU-57 engine of tech on other fighters. You can put in any Russian flanker and also for J-10 and J-20. So I really don't see why you can't accept it will happen? You mentioned why Russians is going with Su-57 when all tech can install in Su-35 and now you want to consider type-30 for Su-35?!?

Good thing Russians didn't had money to go with nonsense super carrier because as it look like this is dusk of carriers.

Btw biggest potential of russian navy is in deep, subs. For example 949AM carry 72 antiship supersonic Oniks and not so far away is we see it armed with Zircons:
http://www.hisutton.com/images/Ru_OSCAR-II_Cutaway.jpg

So one 949AM carry three time more then cold war version and those new missiles are much smaller on radar then massive Granit. Granit tubes:
https://i.imgur.com/Z0gQPTl.jpeg

At the rate Russia is going, it'll be 2030 by the time anything is equipped with Type-30 motors, and I suspect the Su-57 will get first priority over Flankers. It'll come down to $$$ whether Su-35, J-10, etc... would ever be so equipped.
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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 03:58

Assuming the izdeliye 30 turns out to be a successful design. Which, at this stage is still very much in question???
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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 13:26

I think I found a major flaw in their argument

So AIM-120D must pull 13.5 times G bigger than Sukhoi. Some say biggest possible G of AIM-120D is 30, so divide by 13.5 and get Sukhoi to pull only 2.2 G to outturn AIM-120D.


It doesn't have to be a Sukhoi, a B-1 bomber that can pull 2.2Gs will comfortably dodge the Slammer
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wrightwing

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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 13:49

zero-one wrote:I think I found a major flaw in their argument

So AIM-120D must pull 13.5 times G bigger than Sukhoi. Some say biggest possible G of AIM-120D is 30, so divide by 13.5 and get Sukhoi to pull only 2.2 G to outturn AIM-120D.


It doesn't have to be a Sukhoi, a B-1 bomber that can pull 2.2Gs will comfortably dodge the Slammer

Nope. That's not the flaw. The flaw is that a missile has to match maneuvers with the target, when what missiles do is aim for where the target will be. The author is unfamiliar with proportional navigation.
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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 14:07

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:milosh wrote:

"Now imagine what that machine will do when get Raptor's like engines. Type-30 have dry thrust close to maximum thrust of Su-27 engines! And Su-35 isn't so much heavier then Su-27"

The Russians imagine a lot of things: Raptor like engines, supercarriers, combat capable stealth aircraft etc.

OTOH, we actually have Raptor engines (and the follow on to that, the F-135). We've built and fielded a super-carrier (actually, about a dozen). And we have not 1, but 3 combat capable stealth aircraft (B-2, F-22, F-35). In fact, we've retired more combat capable stealth aircraft than Russia has fielded (F-117).


But what you non stop miss is SU-57 engine of tech on other fighters. You can put in any Russian flanker and also for J-10 and J-20. So I really don't see why you can't accept it will happen? You mentioned why Russians is going with Su-57 when all tech can install in Su-35 and now you want to consider type-30 for Su-35?!?

I never said it couldn't happen. It might, but then again it might not. They may encounter problems they find insurmountable, and work on the engine is discontinued. Wouldn't be the first time in the history of military projects that happened. What's going to happen then to the SU-57, and the half dozen other aircraft you say are going to be re-engined with it?

What I'm maintaining here is that you (and to be fair, not just you) talk about it like it's happening NOW. As if that engine performs flawlessly (or at least adequately), there are tons of them lying around and they fit like legos into the SU-57, 30, 35, J-10, J-20. BTW, how did we get to a point where this new Russian engine now fits Chinese airframes (multiple!)? Every time I turn around it fits a new fighter - and now that's expanded to foreign models. Shazam. My car could use a little more power, will the Type 30 fit that too?


Good thing Russians didn't had money to go with nonsense super carrier because as it look like this is dusk of carriers.

Maybe so, but how exactly is no money a good thing when it comes to defense budgets?

Btw biggest potential of russian navy is in deep, subs. For example 949AM carry 72 antiship supersonic Oniks and not so far away is we see it armed with Zircons:
http://www.hisutton.com/images/Ru_OSCAR-II_Cutaway.jpg

Here, I would agree with you. The Russians don't have the $ or expertise to build and operate super-carriers (few nations do). They're much better off sticking to submarines...

So one 949AM carry three time more then cold war version and those new missiles are much smaller on radar then massive Granit. Granit tubes:
https://i.imgur.com/Z0gQPTl.jpeg


Yes, but that's not so surprising, is it? That's the nature of technological progress - things get better. And in the world of defense, that generally means deadlier.
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zero-one

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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 15:01

wrightwing wrote:Nope. That's not the flaw. The flaw is that a missile has to match maneuvers with the target, when what missiles do is aim for where the target will be. The author is unfamiliar with proportional navigation.


Okay so is the 13.5 times figure correct?
Looking more in to it, there is a procedure called jinking a missile, looks like when timed correctly, it can cause the missile to miss. So is a 2.2G jink effecting against the Slammer
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zero-one

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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 15:03

duplicate
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wrightwing

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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 15:50

zero-one wrote:
wrightwing wrote:Nope. That's not the flaw. The flaw is that a missile has to match maneuvers with the target, when what missiles do is aim for where the target will be. The author is unfamiliar with proportional navigation.


Okay so is the 13.5 times figure correct?
Looking more in to it, there is a procedure called jinking a missile, looks like when timed correctly, it can cause the missile to miss. So is a 2.2G jink effecting against the Slammer

A pilot will try everything they can to stay alive, but I wouldn't count on a 2.2G manuever to defeat an AIM-120D.
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Unread post30 Apr 2020, 16:29

this thread is becoming hilarious
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