Su-57 FELON

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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underscan

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 20:07

hythelday wrote:But is it more efficient than the world-famous plazma stealth from the depths of super secret NIIs?

More importantly, can it defend an object from ROFAR systems?

That's the kind of info we are looking you, underscan, to provide us.


Are you feeling OK?
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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 20:11

underscan wrote:
hythelday wrote:But is it more efficient than the world-famous plazma stealth from the depths of super secret NIIs?

More importantly, can it defend an object from ROFAR systems?

That's the kind of info we are looking you, underscan, to provide us.


Are you feeling OK?


I've got a fever. And the only prescription is... more posts about ROFAR and other vaporware.
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botsing

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 21:14

hythelday wrote:I've got a fever. And the only prescription is... more posts about ROFAR and other vaporware.

:mrgreen:

It's amazing what some people want to believe.
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wrightwing

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 21:23

botsing wrote:
hythelday wrote:I've got a fever. And the only prescription is... more posts about ROFAR and other vaporware.

:mrgreen:

It's amazing what some people want to believe.

The next generation technology is Liedar. It can detect everything from any distance. :mrgreen:
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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 23:24

I prefer Blondedar. It can detect pretty blonde women from, 50+ kilometers. Giving me 1st look.
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charlielima223

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Unread post16 Apr 2020, 23:46

I remember seeing an early NatGeo (when they actually did good documentaries) or Discovery channel episode about stealth, the past, present, and possible future. In that episode they talked about advanced meta-materials that could potentially bend radio waves.

I am pretty sure in some undisclosed lab somewhere they are working on crazy materials and some other super secret squirrelly stuff. I think the biggest hurdle is a multiple of factors; development process, manufacturing process, cost, product durability.
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Unread post17 Apr 2020, 17:17

hythelday wrote:But is it more efficient than the world-famous plazma stealth from the depths of super secret NIIs?

More importantly, can it defend an object from ROFAR systems?

That's the kind of info we are looking you, underscan, to provide us.


Plasma stealth, check.

ROFAR system, check.

Aware me on "super secret NIIs"?
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Unread post17 Apr 2020, 18:02

mixelflick wrote:
hythelday wrote:But is it more efficient than the world-famous plazma stealth from the depths of super secret NIIs?

More importantly, can it defend an object from ROFAR systems?

That's the kind of info we are looking you, underscan, to provide us.


Plasma stealth, check.

ROFAR system, check.

Aware me on "super secret NIIs"?


NII is Russian acronym for "scientific research institute". A R&D facility.
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mixelflick

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Unread post18 Apr 2020, 13:30

This program makes little sense to me....

* The SU-35 (as it stands today) delivers 90% of the capability of the SU-57, for far less cost
* Other than China (which already has a stealth fighter), it's difficult to envision what foreign military will be able to afford it
* By the time any appreciable number are in service (2028 - MAYBE), the world will be flush with true stealth fighters (F-35)
* The CPFH of this thing is going to be astronomical, as is arming it.
* The engine, avionics and weapons currently being tested can be ported over to the SU-30/35 fleet, delivering everything except the SU-57's (allegedly) stealth properties
* By the time its fully mature as a weapons system (2030 - MAYBE), sixth gen designs will be taking to the air. And no matter what Russia says, the SU-57 isn't going to be a "6th gen" platform.

That and it'll siphon money away from other ambitious programs they're bragging about. Developing a mach 4 (or whatever) follow on to the Mig-31 will be uber-spendy. Ditto for a carrier born STOVL fighter, which they keep mentioning will equip its "light" aircraft carriers. How about new build TU-160's? Those aren't gong to be free. Nor will the rumored PAK-DA "Stealth" bomber. And the Hunter drone? The newer (supposedly miniaturized) hypersonic weapons? New Mig-35's?? Upgraded SU-34's? The AN-124 isn't going to last forever, and reports of Antonov working on an even larger successor keep surfacing.

Where will the rubles come from, outer space?
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Unread post18 Apr 2020, 17:03

mixelflick wrote:This program makes little sense to me....

* The SU-35 (as it stands today) delivers 90% of the capability of the SU-57, for far less cost


You need to do better analyse of costs,o nly real cost of Su-57 is airframe and FCS, everything else is used or will be used on other fighters and bombers.

mixelflick wrote:That and it'll siphon money away from other ambitious programs they're bragging about. Developing a mach 4 (or whatever) follow on to the Mig-31 will be uber-spendy.


MiG-41 is what MiG is try to sell, argument for it was possible SR-72 but for now SR-72 is just proposal. So no point for MiG-41. MiG-31 is old, one crashed day ago so they need replacement, Su-57 is only thing they have to replace MiG-31. They have around 80 MiG-31B which aren't be upgraded but so 76 Su-57 which are mentioned will be decent replacement for them in late 2020s.

I doubt Su-57 will replace Su-27, for that they have uber cheap Su-35.

mixelflick wrote:Where will the rubles come from, outer space?


That is why real production of Su-57 is only planned for second half of next decade, when as I said older MiG-31 would need to be retired.

Btw PAK-DA I really doubt we will see.

I don't see point of such plane. Tu-160 with new RAM and KH-101 missiles is undetecable for NORAD in fact NORAD commander said not so ago Tu-95 with KH-101 can't be detected from useful launch range and Tu-160 is lot smaller target even without RAM upgrade.

Second problem with PAK-DA are air breath hypersonics. Slow planes are unusable for such weapons. Tu-160 have massive weapon bays so it can nice number of not so small ramjet scramjet hypersonics and can reach Mach 2 which is need to use ramjet without need for solid booster.

In fact Tu-160M2 is quite similar to never happen B-1R. It is quite fast but also have small RCS.
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underscan

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Unread post18 Apr 2020, 19:24

mixelflick wrote:This program makes little sense to me....

* The SU-35 (as it stands today) delivers 90% of the capability of the SU-57, for far less cost
* Other than China (which already has a stealth fighter), it's difficult to envision what foreign military will be able to afford it
* By the time any appreciable number are in service (2028 - MAYBE), the world will be flush with true stealth fighters (F-35)
* The CPFH of this thing is going to be astronomical, as is arming it.
* The engine, avionics and weapons currently being tested can be ported over to the SU-30/35 fleet, delivering everything except the SU-57's (allegedly) stealth properties
* By the time its fully mature as a weapons system (2030 - MAYBE), sixth gen designs will be taking to the air. And no matter what Russia says, the SU-57 isn't going to be a "6th gen" platform.

That and it'll siphon money away from other ambitious programs they're bragging about. Developing a mach 4 (or whatever) follow on to the Mig-31 will be uber-spendy. Ditto for a carrier born STOVL fighter, which they keep mentioning will equip its "light" aircraft carriers. How about new build TU-160's? Those aren't gong to be free. Nor will the rumored PAK-DA "Stealth" bomber. And the Hunter drone? The newer (supposedly miniaturized) hypersonic weapons? New Mig-35's?? Upgraded SU-34's? The AN-124 isn't going to last forever, and reports of Antonov working on an even larger successor keep surfacing.

Where will the rubles come from, outer space?


You have made some great points but their could have been possible changes done to the aircraft. Such examples are that it was using the same old computer the Su-35 was using but they have supposedly replaced that with a newer computer, newer navigation system(strap on INS) new comms, 360 radar view I am assuming https://iz.ru/703590/sergei-valchenko-a ... adar-su-57 since I believe before they said 240 degree radar view. But even if upgraded we have made upgrades as well so that still gives us a technological gap that is still ahead of them atleast by 10 years with their major EW and radar companies have admitted to.

Some users here are bringing up ROFAR but they have yet to start mass production of photonic integrated circuits until the mid 2020s that is being very optimistic if their government greenlights the production and if they did it will take even more time to start production on radars to have those modules. I am assuming that the U.S. would either begin radar production of such circuits before they will https://www.globenewswire.com/news-rele ... ustry.html

I am sure some users have already witnessed news sources of internal mini-kinzhal variant on december 2018 and another claim last fabruary that a ammunition was created. The Zircon started on 2012 and is expected to be in service by 2022 and considering this is a more difficult ambition than the Zircon so the time frame i am looking at is 2030 if it is considered successful or not.

Than they are making it sound like stealth transparancy is better than stealth absorption or stealth reflecting away from source radar claim. But at the end of the article they still have to make a quantum computer with this in order to make a breakthrough 1st and time is required after that breakthrough to make it operational on stealth aircraft anyways. They seem to be a computer savy country according to their rankings here https://www.acm.org/icpc-winners but this requires more difficulty to achieve nonetheless.

I am with the majority here to not expect much on grandiose achievements until atleast the next minimum of 10 years.
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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 07:20

Simple marketing. One needs to continually develop new products otherwise the market will lose interest and revenues will decline. The latter happened with Mig. Sukhoi at least is staying ahead of the game.

The F-35 targeted market is completely different to that of sukhoi. Bear in mind that even China buys Su-35 even as it develops its own J-20. With China not exporting its J-20, the marketing line offers anyone else a Su-57 (albeit only far fewer non-F-35 countries have a high-end requirement).
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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 10:20

underscan wrote:I am sure some users have already witnessed news sources of internal mini-kinzhal variant on december 2018 and another claim last fabruary that a ammunition was created. The Zircon started on 2012 and is expected to be in service by 2022 and considering this is a more difficult ambition than the Zircon so the time frame i am looking at is 2030 if it is considered successful or not.


Kinzhal is lot less advanced design then Zircon, it is air launch Iskander, Zircon is air breath scramjet.

Mini Kinzhal is easy to be done but you will have much smaller payload, what is point of that? Kinzhal fit well as Kh-32 replacement, upgraded Tu-22 will carry four Kinzhals instead two Kh-32, Kh-32 is lot easier target for air defense.
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underscan

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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 16:04

milosh wrote:
underscan wrote:I am sure some users have already witnessed news sources of internal mini-kinzhal variant on december 2018 and another claim last fabruary that a ammunition was created. The Zircon started on 2012 and is expected to be in service by 2022 and considering this is a more difficult ambition than the Zircon so the time frame i am looking at is 2030 if it is considered successful or not.


Kinzhal is lot less advanced design then Zircon, it is air launch Iskander, Zircon is air breath scramjet.

Mini Kinzhal is easy to be done but you will have much smaller payload, what is point of that? Kinzhal fit well as Kh-32 replacement, upgraded Tu-22 will carry four Kinzhals instead two Kh-32, Kh-32 is lot easier target for air defense.


No it is still a pain in the a$$ to downsize and try to keep your smaller missile to have the same speed and range characteristics as the previous huge missile. I have heard of improvements of particle additives that can increase the thrust drastically but that would take awhile to implement successfully to a new missile design. I am sure the JSM or SiAW missile based on AARGM-ER still have sufficient payload against adversary IADS even though they are smaller than a MRBM or SRBM.

I am looking at 10 years minimum at that new radar and missile claim if they are going to have success or not. And that stealth transparency claim at 15 to 20 years minimum because they have to make the error correction for qubits successful which they said their requirement is a minimum of 10 years(that anapole meta-material are to be elements of the qubits according to that last artice) https://tass.com/science/1111769. And once that is successful next are tests and modifications of it being done on aircrafts. I believe the U.S. has a better lead on quantum computers and have started this stealth method before the Russians anyways.
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Unread post19 Apr 2020, 16:50

You know, the great irony is really like the SU-57. I've been rooting for it so to speak for 10 years now. The only problem is that every single IOC projection date has come and gone, and major issues remain..

ISSUE #1: Underpowered engines

Without the new engine, I've heard everything from "well, it can supercruise but only at about mach 1.2" to "The SU-57 won't be able to super-cruise without it...". I happen to believe it can supercruise with the current engine, but that could be anything from mach 1.0 in a dive to mach 1.2 to mach 2.0 in level flight. Hard to say, other than I don't think they'd be pushing for this new engine as hard as they are, unless some serious performance decriments exist... flying without it.

ISSUE #2: Sub-par stealth

It's clear it'll be stealthier than previous Russian designs, but it's also likely quite a bit less stealthy than an F-117. The publicly available RCS estimates aren't that great, something on the order of a clean Super Hornet. I happen to believe they've settled for some RCS reduction measures, but coming up short will put a heavier emphasis on E/W and jamming. The issue being, what foreign customer is going to pay a premium for a "quasi stealth" aircraft? I wouldn't...

ISSUE #3: Weapons integration

The weapons that will give this baby a real advantage all seem to be vaporware/too costly for foreign operators to use. Until it gets cleared for all these hypersonic, super long range AAM's, I have my doubts the R-77M will carry the day. Where is that missile, anyway? The supposed R-37 hypersonic "AWACS killer"? Until we see these in use other than on sputnicknews or militarywatchmag, I have to assume the R-27ER will be its fallback weapon. And if you look at the stats, that missile - sucks. In fact, I haven't seen a credible missile shot from this thing yet. That "cruise missile" shot in Syria? Laughable. The most recent video of an Archer fired from the side weapons bay? Looks fishy as hell IMO...

Not a single credible video/other picture of any BVR AAM being fired, anywhere..

ISSUE #4: The Crash

This is the most worrisome... Sure, crashes happen in almost every fighter development program. But this was the very first production model, fresh out of the factory. That means an accident investigation must take place, to find the cause of the accident and correct it. They absolutely have to do that before pumping out more production models, yet that's exactly what they're saying they're going to do*. I might buy that if this was some 3rd rate air force, but the Russians aren't stupid - they HAVE to understand the implications of doing something like that - or not.

Until that's done and fixed, this "killer in the sky" has been neutered

My 5 cents...

* https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... ed-in-2020
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