Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 01:46
by geforcerfx
NATO gave the the Su-57 a name.

It couldn't be better even if the late Tom Clancy were to have written it, and we have to believe he is smiling down from the tactical high ground of the afterlife. The latest Russian-5th generation "stealth" combat aircraft, the Sukhoi Su-57, was assigned an official NATO reporting name this week: "FELON"

https://amp.businessinsider.com/nato-ga ... on-2019-11

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 06 Nov 2019, 03:14
by weasel1962
Next up J-20 "Jailbird"?

However, due to NATO nomenclature which requires fighters to start with "F", would that be "failbird"?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 21 Dec 2019, 00:35
by awsome
Felons deployed again to Syria...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHF1OV01N4

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2019, 14:01
by mixelflick
awsome wrote:Felons deployed again to Syria...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgHF1OV01N4


Just another PR stunt. Nothing more or less...

Notice they never hang around for very long, and details as to what they're testing are never revealed. This was entirely designed to show potential foreign customers the bird is "combat proven". It didn't work the first time.

This time is no different.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 22 Dec 2019, 14:56
by madrat
Did Airbus aid Russia with Su-57 VLO?

https://asymmetricd.wordpress.com/2019/ ... s-cover-5/

Pardon me if this was already discussed. I come here daily and do not remember seeing this.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 23 Dec 2019, 04:39
by charlielima223
madrat wrote:Did Airbus aid Russia with Su-57 VLO?

https://asymmetricd.wordpress.com/2019/ ... s-cover-5/

Pardon me if this was already discussed. I come here daily and do not remember seeing this.


I didn't read anywhere in that article linking Airbus to the PAKFA. Besides IF (and that is a really big "if") Airbus did aid Russia with the PAKFA, then why does the PAKFA's LO design appear so half-ass?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 23 Dec 2019, 19:29
by milosh
charlielima223 wrote:
madrat wrote:Did Airbus aid Russia with Su-57 VLO?

https://asymmetricd.wordpress.com/2019/ ... s-cover-5/

Pardon me if this was already discussed. I come here daily and do not remember seeing this.


I didn't read anywhere in that article linking Airbus to the PAKFA. Besides IF (and that is a really big "if") Airbus did aid Russia with the PAKFA, then why does the PAKFA's LO design appear so half-ass?


He probable meant about Su-57 model is on one photo, which doesn't mean Airbus helped Sukhoi it only mean Airbus did analyse of Su-57 model, nothing new Chinese did that in 2016, I posted study couple of times, design is VLO if Su-57 have radar blocker and stealthy nozzles.

Stealthy nozzle we saw (nozzle which new engine use) radar blocker is mentioned many times, and in patent mentioned problem of engine radar visability which is dealt (doesn't specify how).

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 07:16
by knowan
milosh wrote:design is VLO if Su-57 have radar blocker and stealthy nozzles.


Doubtful, given the poor RCS of the Su-57 even without the visible engine faces and nozzles being modelled: Image

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 07:25
by marsavian
Su-57 flying in Syria

https://youtu.be/ixlKGAM6mhU


Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 07:28
by Corsair1963
Nothing but PR....

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 14:28
by mixelflick
marsavian wrote:Su-57 flying in Syria

https://youtu.be/ixlKGAM6mhU



Syria is a good proving ground for Russia's new aircraft, but I can't imagine any Western Air Force flying prototypes in a war zone. It really does speak to the desperation they have in selling this thing abroad. Nobody was fooled the first time they pulled this stunt. 2nd time around will be no different.

Actually considering the recent crash, they better get the 2/4 or however many they have there home as soon as possible. And given the cause of the crash is under investigation, that may now be extremely difficult. If they fly them home, they'll be taking a tremendous risk..

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 18:13
by milosh
knowan wrote:
milosh wrote:design is VLO if Su-57 have radar blocker and stealthy nozzles.


Doubtful, given the poor RCS of the Su-57 even without the visible engine faces and nozzles being modelled: Image



All three graphs are from different authors which imply different methods and conditions.

But let we say they are same.

So Frontal RCS is close to F-22.

So frontal aspect is definitely stealth design something which people tried to disprove on this forum from 2010, pushing nartive about clean 4.5gen at best in frontal RCS.

Now let we look side RCS. Graph isn't easy to analyse because there are four frequencies instead one but if you look in tables max side RCS is ~14.2 dBsm which is ~25m2, F-22/35 max side RCS from graphs is ~5dBsm or 3m2

While 3m2 look much smaller then 25m2 it isn't similar to VLO vs non VLO comparison. For example radar which can detect 3m2 from 100km will detect 30m2 from 200km, so Su-57 would be detect from less then two times longer distance then F-22/35 by same airborne radar, if we analyse your graph comparison and table values.

Rear RCS is pointless to compare because Su-57 model is without stealth nozzles.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 18:32
by mixelflick
It's stealth is marginal at best, and the Russians know it.

The proof is in the weapons being developed for it. Virtually all of them from extreme standoff ranges and several claiming to be "hypersonic". Compare and contrast that with the JDAM's dropped by F-22's, 35's and B-2's. They don't want it getting anywhere near a capable radar, because they know they'll be seen first. Unfortunately for them, it sounds like US stealth in exercises has performed even better than advertised. It's much more likely F-22's and 35's will see the Felon first, then deal with it accordingly.

If this thing were anywhere near as stealthy from the front as the F-22, you can bet the Indians and Chinese would be all over it. India would be ordering it by the squadron and China would at least want several examples. But they're not, and that's a very telling fact when considering just how "low observable" the Felon is....

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 19:50
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:It's stealth is marginal at best, and the Russians know it.


Exactly! You're not gonna get from ~.3m^2 to .0001m^2 by changing the engine nozzle, and adding radar blockers.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 21:04
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:It's stealth is marginal at best, and the Russians know it.


Exactly! You're not gonna get from ~.3m^2 to .0001m^2 by changing the engine nozzle, and adding radar blockers.


!?!

It is study about shape not about real RCS value.

Model in study don't have RAM and RAS it is metal or plastic. Same as models of F-22/35 which knowan used for comparison.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 21:27
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:If this thing were anywhere near as stealthy from the front as the F-22, you can bet the Indians and Chinese would be all over it. India would be ordering it by the squadron and China would at least want several examples. But they're not, and that's a very telling fact when considering just how "low observable" the Felon is....


Chinese have J-20 which is also VLO design. So no need to get Su-57 at all.

Indians? Well Indians have much bigger holes to close then getting stealth, for example they still didn't replace MiG-21.

And Su-57 as we see isn't finished product. First serial Su-57 crashed. But that doesn't mean it isn't VLO design.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 22:01
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
mixelflick wrote:It's stealth is marginal at best, and the Russians know it.


Exactly! You're not gonna get from ~.3m^2 to .0001m^2 by changing the engine nozzle, and adding radar blockers.


!?!

It is study about shape not about real RCS value.

Model in study don't have RAM and RAS it is metal or plastic. Same as models of F-22/35 which knowan used for comparison.

At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 22:47
by knowan
milosh wrote:All three graphs are from different authors which imply different methods and conditions.


Same author, just different studies using same methods and standards.

It's treats each plane as a single metal object, no exterior objects like IR sensors or DIRCM, no visible engine face for the Su-57, no RAM coatings.

They are studies of the stealth shaping of the aircraft, and the Su-57 is objectively inferior in that regard (and also inferior in the things the studies exclude).


milosh wrote:So Frontal RCS is close to F-22.


About an order of magnitude worse.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 24 Dec 2019, 23:21
by wrightwing
knowan wrote:






milosh wrote:So Frontal RCS is close to F-22.


About an order of magnitude worse.

That's being very generous. It's several orders of magnitude worse, according to Russian and Indian sources.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 01:18
by Corsair1963
wrightwing wrote:
At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.



Best way to look at the Su-57 is as a Semi-Stealthy Flanker... :wink:

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 01:36
by madrat
Even if it's not an F-35 level of stealth, it is where the Russians need to be for relevance.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 01:55
by Corsair1963
madrat wrote:Even if it's not an F-35 level of stealth, it is where the Russians need to be for relevance.



That is the issue as the Su-57 isn't relevant. As a matter of fact it's really not much of a concern to any of the major players! This doesn't bold well for Putin's revised Russian Empire.


"IMHO"

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 03:20
by doge
From Su-57 displayed on the ground at MAKS 2019. 8) (I recently learned about this photo.)
Can the Su-57 not close the weapons bay exactly, properly!? :doh:

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 04:32
by wrightwing
doge wrote:From Su-57 displayed on the ground at MAKS 2019. 8) (I recently learned about this photo.)
Can the Su-57 not close the weapons bay exactly, properly!? :doh:

That's not even Chinese level fit/finish, much less approaching F-22/35 tolerances.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 06:11
by Corsair1963
wrightwing wrote:
doge wrote:From Su-57 displayed on the ground at MAKS 2019. 8) (I recently learned about this photo.)
Can the Su-57 not close the weapons bay exactly, properly!? :doh:

That's not even Chinese level fit/finish, much less approaching F-22/35 tolerances.



The Fit and Finish of the Chinese Stealth Fighters "appears" to be quite good....


J-20

J20FFQ.jpg


J-31

J31FFQ.jpg

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 08:32
by disconnectedradical
doge wrote:From Su-57 displayed on the ground at MAKS 2019. 8) (I recently learned about this photo.)
Can the Su-57 not close the weapons bay exactly, properly!? :doh:


The fit and finish of Su-57 isn’t great so far, but the model that was displayed at MAKS 2019 was a ground test airframe, you can tell by the lack of pitot tubes and meters. That means it’s one of the older ones so it shouldn’t be the best judge for the production aircraft, which crashed (though LO doesn’t seem to be a part of that accident).

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 12:39
by mixelflick
madrat wrote:Even if it's not an F-35 level of stealth, it is where the Russians need to be for relevance.


"Relevance" as it pertains to 5th gen fighters would be stealthy/low observable (among other features). And the fact of the matter is that 10 years after its first flight, it still hasn't achieved anywhere near the level of stealth the US displayed in the ATF prototypes 30 years ago. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to find out its stealth is far inferior to the 1980's era F-117.

In the end, the SU-57 will be seen as a cautionary tale of what happens when too much ambition meets not enough money or expertise. You wind up with something that appears to have been stillborn...

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 14:39
by vilters
Long time ago, we got our first F-16's coming in to replace our F-104"s.

I was one of the first Western boys to see and touch a Mig-29.

At that time, remember this is many -many years ago and I said to myself ; It will take them at least a couple of decades to come close to our (by then obsolete) F-104 construction and finish quality.

One vivid memory stands out because a Mirage 2000 and Mig -29 are parked side by side.

Looking at the aerodynamic shape and build quality of the Mirage 2000 external fuel tanks, and then crawling under the Mig-29 to see its external belly tank was like a return to the stone age from construction/finish stand point.

Now on to the good (for the Mig-29) and not so good (ours) parts.


The Mig-29's where 100% reliable and flew the whole 2 weeks. (They changed 2 tires, that was all)

The Mirages needed the best part of a Transall in spare parts and we needed spare airplanes, and a C-130 of F-16 spare parts.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 16:16
by mixelflick
Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.



Best way to look at the Su-57 is as a Semi-Stealthy Flanker... :wink:


I'm beginning to think you're right. In fact, when I first saw it I thought to myself, "it looks like someone stepped on a Flanker". Now I'm sure it has some new tricks up its sleeve, but it appears based upon weapons integration one of those isn't going to be stealth, and perhaps not even super-cruise. Based on the weapons being developed for it, it appears the Russians are resigned to the fact it's going to be spotted first.

The reason for putting hypersonic and extremely long ranged, new air to air weapons on it is obvious: They want the ability to reach out and touch an enemy fighter soon after being discovered. The fact they'll be discovered first is a given, and a good bet is that it carries a home on jam hypersonic for said purpose. At the very least, they want the ability to get a weapon off and a home on jam hypersonic is the only way to get there. Carrying stock R-77's just isn't going to cut it...

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 19:15
by madrat
Or they realize that they will have to build a system to defend against both stealth and non-stealth forces. Their LO Felon fighters will be competitive in the near term with the Chinese and most of their neighbors. They do not have a Belt & Road play to compete with China. But they do have lots of firepower to obliterate it and that is diplomacy all by itself. The ulta-paranoia of the Russians makes sense when you consider how fragile Putin's regime could be to a coup d'etat. They cannot afford to let one creep up on them. We are talking existential threats. They certainly won't let a technology gap undermine them anymore than they'd let an internal threat get them. They'll just evolve to fit the threats.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 19:26
by wrightwing
Corsair1963 wrote:
wrightwing wrote:
doge wrote:From Su-57 displayed on the ground at MAKS 2019. 8) (I recently learned about this photo.)
Can the Su-57 not close the weapons bay exactly, properly!? :doh:

That's not even Chinese level fit/finish, much less approaching F-22/35 tolerances.



The Fit and Finish of the Chinese Stealth Fighters "appears" to be quite good....


J-20

J20FFQ.jpg


J-31

J31FFQ.jpg


That wasn't my point.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2019, 20:05
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.


Can you point me to any statement for people working on Su-57 about its RCS?

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984 ... 1-0040.pdf

We have study wrote by four leading Chinese aeronautic experts about shape:

The mean RCS value in a range
of ± 30° of the forward direction is −5.625 dBsm when exposed
to 10-GHz radar wave. In general, it is the same or even exceeds
the stealth level of modern fighters in the world.


No RAM and RAS applied. Both work quite well especially with X-band for RCS reduction.

So it is clearly VLO design, other question would Russians really build it to match VLO requirement.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 00:20
by Corsair1963
:lmao:

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 03:54
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.


Can you point me to any statement for people working on Su-57 about its RCS?

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984 ... 1-0040.pdf

We have study wrote by four leading Chinese aeronautic experts about shape:

The mean RCS value in a range
of ± 30° of the forward direction is −5.625 dBsm when exposed
to 10-GHz radar wave. In general, it is the same or even exceeds
the stealth level of modern fighters in the world.


No RAM and RAS applied. Both work quite well especially with X-band for RCS reduction.

So it is clearly VLO design, other question would Russians really build it to match VLO requirement.


I can point to statements by Russians working on the jet, stating frontal RCS of ~.5m^2, and by Indian sources who've complained about disappointing stealth levels. I haven't seen a single source ever mention all aspect VLO signature reduction. You're pulling that out of your backside.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 04:13
by boogieman
It seems the first production standard Su57 has crashed in Russia. Pilot is ok.

https://amp.businessinsider.com/russias ... es-2019-12

EDIT: NVM I see this has it's own thread.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 08:46
by Corsair1963
wrightwing wrote:
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.


Can you point me to any statement for people working on Su-57 about its RCS?

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984 ... 1-0040.pdf

We have study wrote by four leading Chinese aeronautic experts about shape:

The mean RCS value in a range
of ± 30° of the forward direction is −5.625 dBsm when exposed
to 10-GHz radar wave. In general, it is the same or even exceeds
the stealth level of modern fighters in the world.


No RAM and RAS applied. Both work quite well especially with X-band for RCS reduction.

So it is clearly VLO design, other question would Russians really build it to match VLO requirement.


I can point to statements by Russians working on the jet, stating frontal RCS of ~.5m^2, and by Indian sources who've complained about disappointing stealth levels. I haven't seen a single source ever mention all aspect VLO signature reduction. You're pulling that out of your backside.


Clearly, from all reports India was very unimpressed with the level of Stealth on the Su-57. Which, would explain why they have completely lost interest in the type. Even after repeated attempts by Russia to get them to reconsider. Which, personally speaks volumes to me....

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 17:37
by milosh
Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, from all reports India was very unimpressed with the level of Stealth on the Su-57. Which, would explain why they have completely lost interest in the type. Even after repeated attempts by Russia to get them to reconsider. Which, personally speaks volumes to me....


And then you hear Indians praising Rafale as stealth fighter which would detect first Chinese stealths and down them much earlier then they detect Rafale becuase it is armed with Meteor missiles and this isn't some fanboys said this is what IAF commander said when he was asked why India don't get stealth when China have them, he said Rafale is stealth, have much better sensors and missiles!

@weightwing


0.5m2 is mean value of PAK-FA RCS, I think in patent average RCS is 0.1 to 1m2 so mean value is 0.5m2. Lowest frontal RCS by pantent is 0.1m2 highest is 1m2.

Real number is probable lower then what is written in patent, becuase no one would publicly declare RCS value. F-22 which is operational for almost two decades still have classifed RCS value and SR-71 also.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 17:46
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:



@weightwing


0.5m2 is mean value of PAK-FA RCS, I think in patent average RCS is 0.1 to 1m2 so mean value is 0.5m2. Lowest frontal RCS by pantent is 0.1m2 highest is 1m2.

Real number is probable lower then what is written in patent, becuase no one would publicly declare RCS value. F-22 which is operational for almost two decades still have classifed RCS value and SR-71 also.


The F-22's (and F-35's) RCS are classified, but.... the vanilla open source figures that have been given are frontal RCS in the .0001m^2 range. To even be considered VLO, the Su-57 would need to be down to .001m^2.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 20:27
by milosh
wrightwing wrote:The F-22's (and F-35's) RCS are classified, but.... the vanilla open source figures that have been given are frontal RCS in the .0001m^2 range. To even be considered VLO, the Su-57 would need to be down to .001m^2.


Maybe but I think 0.01m2 would be quite good achievement, it would be problematic for non IRST equipped fighters.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2019, 21:58
by wrightwing
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:The F-22's (and F-35's) RCS are classified, but.... the vanilla open source figures that have been given are frontal RCS in the .0001m^2 range. To even be considered VLO, the Su-57 would need to be down to .001m^2.


Maybe but I think 0.01m2 would be quite good achievement, it would be problematic for non IRST equipped fighters.

.01m^2 is considered LO, but it would still be a challenge for fighters with large RCS values. I've never seen any Russian claims for .01m^2, though.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 02:36
by talkitron
Russia has sold 14 Su-57s to Algeria as well as 14 Su-34s and 14 Su-35s. It seems like Russian exports have been down lately and the overall defense spending has decreased, hitting tactical aviation as nuclear weapons are the priority. So a sale of 42 jets is a big win for Russia. The Algerian decision is described in a way that makes it seem unprofessional to me.

https://www.menadefense.net/non-classe- ... 34-bomber/

The decision was taken in the summer of 2019 after the visit of an Algerian delegation to the MAKS air show in Moscow. During this visit led by the Air Force Commander Major General Boumaiza, the Su-57 was examined from every angle, the former Algerian Mig-29 pilot was even one of the rare foreigners to try the stealth plane Russian on a simulator. It is he who would have decided on the future of acquisitions of the air force after five years of procrastination and loss of time. The rise of the Moroccan Air Force with the acquisition of 25 F-16 Vipers and the appearance of F-35s in the Italian fleet motivated Algeria’s rapid decision-making.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 03:24
by madrat
Seems like Algeria is all over the spectrum. After the 2008 rejection of MiG-29 they were working France hard for Rafale. So were the Rafale dreams put to bed?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 06:27
by marsavian
milosh wrote:
wrightwing wrote:At best, the Su-57 is an LO design, and not even necessarily an all aspect one at that. There isn't enough RAM/RAS, radar blockers, or nozzle designs, that can change that. Not even the Russians have made such a ridiculous claim.


Can you point me to any statement for people working on Su-57 about its RCS?

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/jatm/v8n1/1984 ... 1-0040.pdf

We have study wrote by four leading Chinese aeronautic experts about shape:

The mean RCS value in a range
of ± 30° of the forward direction is −5.625 dBsm when exposed
to 10-GHz radar wave. In general, it is the same or even exceeds
the stealth level of modern fighters in the world.


No RAM and RAS applied. Both work quite well especially with X-band for RCS reduction.

So it is clearly VLO design, other question would Russians really build it to match VLO requirement.


In the real world though the Su-57 Mk 1 engine has an open engine face with no RCS reduction apart from RAM which the similar Su-35 engine has. This will keep the frontal RCS relatively high and more like Typhoon/Rafale/Super Hornet/Gripen than F-22/F-35. The Su-57 is also not stealthy from the sides. Su-57 is a pretty poor implementation of a stealth fighter considering they had the working example of F-22 to base it on.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 07:50
by boogieman
marsavian wrote:In the real world though the Su-57 Mk 1 engine has an open engine face with no RCS reduction apart from RAM which the similar Su-35 engine has. This will keep the frontal RCS relatively high and more like Typhoon/Rafale/Super Hornet/Gripen than F-22/F-35. The Su-57 is also not stealthy from the sides. Su-57 is a pretty poor implementation of a stealth fighter considering they had the working example of F-22 to base it on.


I was under the impression that the Su57's engines were displaced so that the compressor face is obscured from the front (a design feature found on the YF23) and that RCS reducing shrouds were to be used on production models. Not going to place TOO much weight on this source but it explains what I am talking about:



Assuming the above is true, the biggest issue I can see with Su57 frontal RCS is the IRST bulb up front. Strikes me as a really bizarre design choice if you're trying to build a VLO jet.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 10:29
by milosh
boogieman wrote:
I was under the impression that the Su57's engines were displaced so that the compressor face is obscured from the front (a design feature found on the YF23) and that RCS reducing shrouds were to be used on production models. Not going to place TOO much weight on this source but it explains what I am talking about:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPdKc2Ca610

Assuming the above is true, the biggest issue I can see with Su57 frontal RCS is the IRST bulb up front. Strikes me as a really bizarre design choice if you're trying to build a VLO jet.


No it isn't like YF-23 it is common mistake because Su-57 main gear is lower so plane is tilted down when on ground and then it look like engines are above intake mouths.

Su-57 intake is like X-32 in therms of stealth design (not stealthy at all):
http://www.aviationexplorer.com/boeing_ ... g_x-32.jpg

So if F-32 is stealth I really don't see why Su-57 isn't if we just talk about intake.

Of course both would need to use radar blocker but here is where Su-57 have "advantage" F-32 because of STOVL couldn't use complex blocker while Sukhoi radar blocker look fraking complex:
https://findpatent.ru/patent/262/2623031.html

It look like combination of couple of radar blockers, first some ring blocker, then mesh and then something similar to S.Hornet radar blocker.

OLS backside is composite with thick RAM so when it isn't in function its impact of RCS is small. When it is in function it increase RCS but not as folks like to calculate, they use metalic sphere as analog :roll:

@marsavian


Of course they did analyse lot of different designs, here are F-22 & F-23 combo:
https://naukatehnika.com/files/journal/ ... 47-e-6.jpg

But they decide to go with complex radar blocker. S-duct would reduce capability to carry four big missiles/bombs or two big missiles/bombs and four R-XY (short missile which replace R-77).

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 12:58
by boogieman
milosh wrote:No it isn't like YF-23 it is common mistake because Su-57 main gear is lower so plane is tilted down when on ground and then it look like engines are above intake mouths.

Su-57 intake is like X-32 in therms of stealth design (not stealthy at all):
http://www.aviationexplorer.com/boeing_ ... g_x-32.jpg

So if F-32 is stealth I really don't see why Su-57 isn't if we just talk about intake.

Of course both would need to use radar blocker but here is where Su-57 have "advantage" F-32 because of STOVL couldn't use complex blocker while Sukhoi radar blocker look fraking complex:
https://findpatent.ru/patent/262/2623031.html

It look like combination of couple of radar blockers, first some ring blocker, then mesh and then something similar to S.Hornet radar blocker.

OLS backside is composite with thick RAM so when it isn't in function its impact of RCS is small. When it is in function it increase RCS but not as folks like to calculate, they use metalic sphere as analog :roll:

@marsavian


Of course they did analyse lot of different designs, here are F-22 & F-23 combo:
https://naukatehnika.com/files/journal/ ... 47-e-6.jpg

But they decide to go with complex radar blocker. S-duct would reduce capability to carry four big missiles/bombs or two big missiles/bombs and four R-XY (short missile which replace R-77).


Interesting, assuming you are correct the question remains as to how effective the engine shrouds (radar blockers) and sig reduction work on the IRST bulb will prove to be. I have to say I doubt this approach will be competitive with what you see on the front aspect of the F22 or F35 from an RCS reduction point of view.

That said it may not be terribly relevant either. With a projected Russian fleet of under 100 airframes a decade from now, it looks like Flanker and Fulcrum variants will continue to form the backbone of the VVS fighter fleet for a long time to come.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 14:25
by marsavian
Milosh, can you point out this radar blocker on the current serial version of Su-57 ?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 15:01
by mixelflick
Algerian SU-57's huh. I'll believe it when I see it.

They're going to find out that for the $, the SU-35 is a much better buy. I can only imagine the maintenance woes on their new SU-57's. There are still many bugs to be worked out, and the final production process will now have to be looked at from the ground up since the crash. I'd bet anything simple engine changes will have to occur in Russia, along with all but the most routine maintenance.

Time will tell..

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 22:26
by milosh
marsavian wrote:Milosh, can you point out this radar blocker on the current serial version of Su-57 ?


That is something what officials would know not me.

Btw interesting photo of crashed Su-57:
https://radar.rp.pl/wp-content/uploads/ ... ternet.jpg

They blurred intake.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 23:22
by talkitron
mixelflick wrote:They're going to find out that for the $, the SU-35 is a much better buy. I can only imagine the maintenance woes on their new SU-57's. There are still many bugs to be worked out, and the final production process will now have to be looked at from the ground up since the crash. I'd bet anything simple engine changes will have to occur in Russia, along with all but the most routine maintenance.


This is the main reason India is no longer buying Russian combat jets. I can guess that Algeria got a very low price on the jets as nothing else is moving off the lot for Russia right now in the combat jet space.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 23:32
by marsavian
milosh wrote:
marsavian wrote:Milosh, can you point out this radar blocker on the current serial version of Su-57 ?


That is something what officials would know not me.

Btw interesting photo of crashed Su-57:
https://radar.rp.pl/wp-content/uploads/ ... ternet.jpg

They blurred intake.


That's because the blocker only exists as a patent certainly in the current serial version with the -117 engine so my original post and its points still stand, Su-35 type RAM treatment is all it's got and that is frankly not good enough for a supposedly VLO aircraft which you claimed for it.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 28 Dec 2019, 23:35
by mixelflick
talkitron wrote:
mixelflick wrote:They're going to find out that for the $, the SU-35 is a much better buy. I can only imagine the maintenance woes on their new SU-57's. There are still many bugs to be worked out, and the final production process will now have to be looked at from the ground up since the crash. I'd bet anything simple engine changes will have to occur in Russia, along with all but the most routine maintenance.


This is the main reason India is no longer buying Russian combat jets. I can guess that Algeria got a very low price on the jets as nothing else is moving off the lot for Russia right now in the combat jet space.



But wait, isn't India getting up-rated MKI's? Perhaps they'll be serviced locally?

In any case, Algeria may have gotten a good price but my God, 3 different types.. and not many of each? That's going to be crazy expensive logistically, and it also won't leave many aircraft to cannibalize for spare parts. Worse, those aircraft have to go back to the Russia for engine overhauls, etc.. They should have bought as many multi-role SU-30SM as reasonable, and put the rest into pilot training. Multi-million dollar aircraft and 10 cent pilots are a bad, bad combination...

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2019, 06:44
by charlielima223
milosh wrote:
OLS backside is composite with thick RAM so when it isn't in function its impact of RCS is small. When it is in function it increase RCS but not as folks like to calculate, they use metalic sphere as analog :roll:


RAM can only do so much. I can wrap a brick in RAM but it will never be as effective as a diamond with faceted shallow angles or an oval with shallow complex continuous curves.

From a purely visual perspective it always seems IMO that the PAKFA was always designed to be stealthy enough rather than stealthy as possible...

Take for instance the EOTS of the F-35. Here we see the EOTS housed in a structure desined to be as stealthy as possible as well as having radar absorbent properties.
Image
Image

Even the older F-117 tried to be as stealthy as possible. The F-117s IR imaging, nav, and tageting system on the front if the aircraft is housed and recessed. Even the housing is designed to be LO with saw toothed edging to help break radar signals.
Image
Image
Image

However the same cannot be said about the PAKFAs IRST...
Image
Image

Shaping is a major factor to obtaining optimal low RCS


Image

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2019, 08:26
by knowan
Doesn't matter how much RAM they slap on it if the shape is bad, and that shape is definitely bad.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 29 Dec 2019, 12:38
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:But wait, isn't India getting up-rated MKI's? Perhaps they'll be serviced locally?


Yeap. I don't know about engines though in 2007 they didn't have facility for engine maintenance something which Chinese had.

mixelflick wrote:In any case, Algeria may have gotten a good price but my God, 3 different types.. and not many of each? That's going to be crazy expensive logistically, and it also won't leave many aircraft to cannibalize for spare parts. Worse, those aircraft have to go back to the Russia for engine overhauls, etc.. They should have bought as many multi-role SU-30SM as reasonable, and put the rest into pilot training. Multi-million dollar aircraft and 10 cent pilots are a bad, bad combination...


All three types will use same engine in mid 2020s, Type-30 fit well in any Flanker so it isn't just for Su-57. Also you mentioned India, their Super 30 upgrade is based on Su-57 tech for Su-30, so you can expect all three planes in 2020s will have similar electronics.

Also Su-57 doesn't look like chasing best possible RCS so I expect RAM isn't so expensive to maintain, if we look weather and airfields in Russia I doubt they would go with quality RAM even if they can afford it.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2019, 12:01
by mixelflick
Latest on crash from The Aviationist...

“During a flight test, when the aircraft was being flown at maximum limits, there was a failure of an integrated control system. Reports differ as to whether the aircraft entered a series of uncontrolled rolls or a flat corkscrew. The malfunction began at an altitude of 10 kilometers (32,800 feet). The factory test pilot attempted to recover the aircraft during a descent of 8,000 meters (26,246 feet), but finally ejected at 2,000 meters (6,561 feet). The pilot parachuted successfully and was found an hour after the accident. Temperature at the time of the accident was 30-degrees below zero.”

A quote attributed to the unnamed Sukhoi factory test pilot was shared on Russian language social media that said:

“The stabilizers have risen in extreme opposite positions, began to rotate. Disabled the [automated control system?], switched to manual – no reaction. From 10 km to one and a half was transported – no result. Came out successfully, when landing slightly twisted my leg.”

They also strongly suspect the Algerian "buy" is BS, meant to distract attention from the crash..

https://theaviationist.com/2019/12/29/w ... sh-emerge/

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 30 Dec 2019, 22:37
by XanderCrews
milosh wrote:
Also Su-57 doesn't look like chasing best possible RCS so I expect RAM isn't so expensive to maintain, if we look weather and airfields in Russia I doubt they would go with quality RAM even if they can afford it.



Quality RAM is easier to Maintain. :wink:

Youve fallen for the trope that the more sophisticated and advanced the skin is, the more babying it needs. its the opposite.

F-117 maintainers in 1995 would do a backflip if they could see the F-35s skin

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 14:37
by mixelflick
XanderCrews wrote:
milosh wrote:
Also Su-57 doesn't look like chasing best possible RCS so I expect RAM isn't so expensive to maintain, if we look weather and airfields in Russia I doubt they would go with quality RAM even if they can afford it.



Quality RAM is easier to Maintain. :wink:

Youve fallen for the trope that the more sophisticated and advanced the skin is, the more babying it needs. its the opposite.

F-117 maintainers in 1995 would do a backflip if they could see the F-35s skin


I wonder if Russian industry can build to sufficient margins (for stealth) if the order is small enough? It's pretty clear they can't mass produce fighters with the extreme tolerances necessary for VLO aircraft. Lockheed pumped out 131 or so F-35's in 2019, and that'll go up to 141 in 2020. So around 11 or so aircraft a month. If the Russians hold true to 76 by 2028, that's less than 1 airframe a month. Call it one every 6 weeks.

If they're more or less making each one by hand (so to speak), is there a likelihood those extreme tolerances necessary for stealth could be achieved?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 31 Dec 2019, 21:14
by milosh
mixelflick wrote:If they're more or less making each one by hand (so to speak), is there a likelihood those extreme tolerances necessary for stealth could be achieved?


Yes it is possible, F-117 is build by hand and F-22 didn't had production rate nowhere near F-35 so it use lot less automation then F-35.

@XanderCrews

You are talking about fibermat which is used on F-35. F-22, B-2 and F-117 use more sensitive RAM. I doubt Russia is capable to make fibermat. So they will use more sensitive RAM so I expect they will choice more rugged and less efficient RAM.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Jan 2020, 03:32
by marsavian
Future Of Su-57 Next-Generation Engine Uncertain

https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/ ... -uncertain

Piotr Butowski January 06, 2020

GDANSK, Poland—As new details about a next-generation engine for Russia’s premier Su-57 fighter emerge, new concerns are apparent as well.

On Dec. 6, the head of Rostec Corp.’s aviation cluster, Anatoly Serdyukov, provided an update on the state of work on the new-generation Lyulka “izdeliye 30” (product 30) turbofan engine intended for the final modification of the Su-57 fighter, the so-called “second-stage” aircraft. Su-57 fighters currently fly with Lyulka AL-41F-1 (izdeliye 117) engines.

Izdeliye 30 is the first all-new engine for tactical combat aircraft developed in Russia for several decades. The previous Lyulka AL-31F engine entered production together with the Su-27 Flanker fighter in 1981. All subsequent engines, including the AL-41F-1 for the first Su-57s, are upgrades of the base AL-31F.

The clean-sheet design offers a thrust increase, lighter weight, a smaller number of elements and lower operating costs. In December 2014, Russia’s United Engine Corp. CEO Vladislav Masalov said the new engine will be “17-18% more effective” than the current one. If this refers to full thrust, the new izdeliye 30 should provide 17 tons compared to 14.5 tons for AL-41F-1. The engine’s thrust-to-weight ratio is to be more than 10:1.

Thanks to glass-fiber plastic inlet guide vanes, the new engine fan would reduce the radar cross section in a front view.

“Bench tests of the future engine are being continued. The engine optimization on a flying testbed is being conducted,” Serdyukov said. “In October, another flight was executed aimed at checking the engine characteristics at various flight modes. Operation of the thrust-vectoring nozzle was checked, as well as operation of the oil system at negative G loads. In total, the flying testbed executed 16 flights.”

The flying engine testbed, the Su-57’s second prototype T-50-2LL, replaced the port engine with a prototype of the izdeliye 30. It performed the first flight on Dec. 5, 2017.

But 16 test flights in two years is not an impressive test pace, especially considering how important this engine is for the Russians.

Serdyukov concluded his remarks with the following: “The issue of the use of this engine on airplanes is currently under consideration.” This statement suggests that it is not yet assured that the Su-57 will receive the new engines in the foreseeable future.

Though there is no official information on the topic, the next-generation engine program faces serious obstacles. The main one is the lack of modern materials that would enable the planned engine characteristics. Replacing planned materials with those that are available is likely to adversely affect the engine’s weight and performance.


The first series-production Su-57 fighter was to be handed over to the Russian Defense Ministry in December 2019, but it crashed Dec. 24 during a handover flight in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. In total, the ministry ordered 74 Su-57s—the first two aircraft for testing and then six operational squadrons of 12 fighters each—with delivery by the end of 2027.

During the Army 2018 exhibition, Deputy Defense Minister Alexey Krivoruchko claimed that from 2023 the Su-57s will be delivered in a “second-stage” configuration, with the new engines. But in a statement to the Russian Defense Ministry newspaper Krasnaya Zvezda in December 2019, Krivoruchko corrected this deadline: Deliveries of the first-stage aircraft will last until the “mid-2020s.”

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 16:47
by mixelflick
The commentary/focus on the new engines is telling. I'm assuming the production bird that crashed was flying with the old engines, but perhaps not? It was mentioned the aircraft was performing an "engine check" at the time of the crash. It seems unlikely, but is it possible this aircraft was flying with 1 of the new, "2nd stage" engines? Regardless, it sounds like they've run into significant problems, which could mean one of the following things..

1.) There will be delays well beyond what they had hoped. It sounds like they wanted to have it operational in 2023, but now the timeline is "mid 2020's". Anyone who follows Russian estimates of engines/airframes and their IOC dates shouldn't find this very suprising..

2.) The entire SU-57 program is going through a deep dive/soul searching phase, questioning whether 76 airframes being built will do much beyond what just more SU-35's would.

It may be that they decide to continue pushing the new engine, but the production Felon is off. They'll focus instead on getting the new engine in their SU-27SM2's and 3's, SU-30's and SU-35's. Doing so would provide a huge performance boost to an already hugely capable aircraft. Plus, at least a few of those production lines is still open.

Tough call, but whatever's going on - it's not good news for the SU-57..

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Jan 2020, 21:46
by marsavian
Su-57 is still not production ready even if they claim it is. Tom Cooper reckoned last year the avionics/armament testing is still incomplete. The recent crash shows at least a faulty FCS if not worse aerodynamic defects. The new engine is not commercially producible so is a prototype itself. Meanwhile every single one of the 400+ F-35 will be brought up to IOC 3F standard so the US has produced 600+ active stealth fighters and Russia has yet to produce one in the same time period and their version relies on engine fan RAM in the first iteration and composite inlet guide vanes in the second and neither are as effective as a serpentine inlet in stealth. The J-20 is more finished than the Su-57 and that's still a WIP.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 27 Jan 2020, 01:45
by Corsair1963
Russia needs to partner with China on a Stealth Fighter. Yet, question is will the Chinese have them??? :shock:

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 06:08
by Corsair1963
Pilots of the Russian Aerospace Forces have fully mastered the flight modes of Su-57 aircraft including the extreme altitude, speed and g-load.

While performing the flight tasks, pilots have worked out the individual and group piloting, group co-ordination on the flight level, low and extreme low altitude flights and also the combat use of aircraft's armament.

At the final stage of the training, the pilots practiced air-to-air combat elements involving super-maneuverable modes of the aircraft.

Su-57 is the 5th-gen fighter jet designed for engaging ground, air and naval targets. The aircraft is equipped with armament placed into internal bays, the newest onboard hardware and provided with a stealth-tech radar-absorbent coating.

Within the State Defence Procurement, Russian ASF are to receive 76 aircraft of this type.


https://business.facebook.com/mod.mil.r ... 749041408/

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 13:48
by mixelflick
The climbing missile shot is interesting. You can see the (archer?) peeking out of the side weapons bay, just prior to launch. So too though, were the large gaps between panels on the underside of the aircraft.

Let's assume all the weapons testing and integration is done. We'll also assume all the avionics work as advertised. They still had the first production version crash, and its still unclear as to why. Is it the flight control software? A control surface anomoly? Something else??

Good luck pumping out new production aircraft without finding and fixing that issue. I sure wouldn't want to be flying it, but I'm not so certain their pilots have a choice. They need to get 76 aircraft right, and so far I can only see problems with these prototypes featured in the video. Every time there's a setback, we get a new video of the prototypes flying around and the narrative is that full scale production is upon us.

If that's true, where are the operation units flying this thing?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 14:17
by zaltys
What are those bubbles in the canopy at 1:02?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 15:21
by mixelflick
zaltys wrote:What are those bubbles in the canopy at 1:02?


Good question.

Condensation?

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 19:28
by milosh
I find it interesting they fitted R-74 missile in weapon pod, I thought it would need new missile (smaller then R-73/74).

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 20:43
by falcon.16
Pictures are very bad, it does not show nothing more than a missile being fired, but not any evidence about if it was from internal side bay.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 25 Mar 2020, 22:44
by swiss

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2020, 12:31
by falcon.16
swiss wrote:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32742/this-is-a-video-clip-of-an-su-57-firing-a-missile-from-its-side-weapon-bay-or-is-it


I am not surprised.

Really If the russians have used an air to air missile from its internal bays, we will have good pictures and videos without any doubt.

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2020, 13:51
by mixelflick
I know they're a Kremlin mouth piece, but how exactly do Russian Air Force pilots start "flying SU-57's" when.... the first production version crashed on its maiden flight? (Christmas eve, 2019).

https://militarywatchmagazine.com/artic ... e-ministry

This is getting ridiculous. Russia is putting out video/news stories to make us forget not a single production aircraft has been fielded, let alone a squadron or two of the type. So instead they give use more videos of the prototypes zipping around. Really? The accident investigation has been wrapped up and they've delivered several production aircraft since the crash? How many could that be? Two? Three? Maybe...? More like ZERO, assuming of course they don't want them crashing too.

Do they think other countries are fooled by this? For anyone who's been following the program, it's clear the SU-57 is still FAR from being ready for prime time..

Re: Su-57 FELON

Unread postPosted: 26 Mar 2020, 18:57
by milosh
swiss wrote:https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/32742/this-is-a-video-clip-of-an-su-57-firing-a-missile-from-its-side-weapon-bay-or-is-it


I did frame by frame in vlc and missile emerging below wing and then it is fired so it is probable test fire from side weapon bay. So no fixed pylon maybe no bay doors but I really doubt that.