Su-57 Felon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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mixelflick

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Unread post18 Jun 2020, 18:01

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Not much news since the Christmas Eve crash. They put out a few saving face stories shortly thereafter, but its anyone's guess as to what's going on right now. Still no cause cited from the accident investigation (let's hope they're doing one).

Beautiful piece of engineering, but clearly still a lot of bugs to be worked out..


New VVS commander doesn't help either, he isn't fighter fan, he isn't pilot at all, army man and when you ask army man which fighter is best fighter, he would say bomber :D

New commander favors drones, pgm and bombers. S-70 can be consider his pet project.


But even he is over-ruled by my boy Vlad, who loves the SU-57 (despite all of its problems)...
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milosh

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Unread post18 Jun 2020, 18:20

mixelflick wrote:But even he is over-ruled by my boy Vlad, who loves the SU-57 (despite all of its problems)...


I really don't think Su-57 is something Vlad is proud of. Russia is quite late in 5gen fighter game so even if they start mass production in early 2020s it isn't nothing to hyped about, I would say J-20 took all the glore :D

But with heavy UCAV they have something to bargain about. We are first, it is AI etc. And to be frank UCAV and PGM is what they need lot more then small number of 5gen fighters.
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mixelflick

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Unread post19 Jun 2020, 15:36

milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:But even he is over-ruled by my boy Vlad, who loves the SU-57 (despite all of its problems)...


I really don't think Su-57 is something Vlad is proud of. Russia is quite late in 5gen fighter game so even if they start mass production in early 2020s it isn't nothing to hyped about, I would say J-20 took all the glore :D

But with heavy UCAV they have something to bargain about. We are first, it is AI etc. And to be frank UCAV and PGM is what they need lot more then small number of 5gen fighters.


You raise an interesting question...

Why bother with the SU-57 at all, if an evolved "Hunter" drone can do the job better? It will certainly be more stealthy, getting them into the VLO game. It probably won't be as fast, but it's a BIG bird that'll likely carry a lot of fuel. And let's not forget minimal drag, assuming they carry all fuel and weapons internally. I see it as a matter of timing. If the Hunter matures as a platform in say, 5 years and the SU-57's new engine is faltering, it would make more sense to produce Hunters.

Russian aviation is at a critical juncture: Do they get into the 5th gen game way late, or skip it altogether and focus moreso on AI drones to do the deed? Considering the crash, ongoing engine and other troubles.. the future of the SU-57 is looking bleak. Only a big order from a foreign customer can save the day IMO.

Unfortunately for the Russians, I don't think China's going to want or need it. India does need it, but thus far doesn't want it. Given their options though for stealthy alternatives, they may not have a choice..
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mixelflick

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Unread post07 Aug 2020, 15:59

News from MilitaryWatch (yes, I know they're a Kremlin mouth piece) stating the SU-57 will now be used as a "quarterback" for the more numerous SU-35(s). This is yet another "role" for the SU-57 the Russians have planned. I swear, they're all over the board..

1.) The SU-57 will be in service in (2013, 2014, 2015, etc) as a 5th generation fighter
2.) The SU-57 is now being developed into a 6th generation fighter
3.) The SU-57 is now being developed to fly unmanned missions
4.) The SU-57 will now fly in tandem/work with the Hunter unmanned drone
5.) The SU-57 will now fly in tandem/work with the SU-35

And on, and on and on. It's air to air, air to ground, air to sea and a hypersonic missile carrier. It's being piped with Artificial Intelligence. It's, it's it's... it's hard to say what's next!?

You'd think this wunderfighter would settle on doing one thing (something) well, and get into service. Apparently, nothing changed after the crash either. Full steam ahead, and damned the accident report.

Glad I'm not flying it!
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nutshell

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Unread post08 Aug 2020, 17:02

mixelflick wrote:News from MilitaryWatch (yes, I know they're a Kremlin mouth piece) stating the SU-57 will now be used as a "quarterback" for the more numerous SU-35(s). This is yet another "role" for the SU-57 the Russians have planned. I swear, they're all over the board..

1.) The SU-57 will be in service in (2013, 2014, 2015, etc) as a 5th generation fighter
2.) The SU-57 is now being developed into a 6th generation fighter
3.) The SU-57 is now being developed to fly unmanned missions
4.) The SU-57 will now fly in tandem/work with the Hunter unmanned drone
5.) The SU-57 will now fly in tandem/work with the SU-35

And on, and on and on. It's air to air, air to ground, air to sea and a hypersonic missile carrier. It's being piped with Artificial Intelligence. It's, it's it's... it's hard to say what's next!?

You'd think this wunderfighter would settle on doing one thing (something) well, and get into service. Apparently, nothing changed after the crash either. Full steam ahead, and damned the accident report.

Glad I'm not flying it!


6.) A scam.
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mixelflick

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Unread post09 Aug 2020, 16:54

Lol.

I get the feeling you may be right. With fewer than 10 prototypes flying and (presumably) 1 or 2 production examples by now, it may be they're currently.... sitting idle. That's what I'd be doing with the production birds, at least until the accident investigation is completed/root cause identified and fixed.

I suppose the new engine will continue to fly on the prototypes, but the whole program seems like it's based on smoke and mirrors. And they're not particularly good at making it look good, either...
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sferrin

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Unread post09 Aug 2020, 21:27

mixelflick wrote:News from MilitaryWatch (yes, I know they're a Kremlin mouth piece) stating the SU-57 will now be used as a "quarterback" for the more numerous SU-35(s). This is yet another "role" for the SU-57 the Russians have planned. I swear, they're all over the board..

1.) The SU-57 will be in service in (2013, 2014, 2015, etc) as a 5th generation fighter
2.) The SU-57 is now being developed into a 6th generation fighter
3.) The SU-57 is now being developed to fly unmanned missions
4.) The SU-57 will now fly in tandem/work with the Hunter unmanned drone
5.) The SU-57 will now fly in tandem/work with the SU-35

And on, and on and on. It's air to air, air to ground, air to sea and a hypersonic missile carrier. It's being piped with Artificial Intelligence. It's, it's it's... it's hard to say what's next!?

You'd think this wunderfighter would settle on doing one thing (something) well, and get into service. Apparently, nothing changed after the crash either. Full steam ahead, and damned the accident report.

Glad I'm not flying it!


They seem to have forgot plasma stealth. :lol:
"There I was. . ."
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jessmo112

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Unread post09 Aug 2020, 23:13

mixelflick wrote:
milosh wrote:
mixelflick wrote:But even he is over-ruled by my boy Vlad, who loves the SU-57 (despite all of its problems)...


I really don't think Su-57 is something Vlad is proud of. Russia is quite late in 5gen fighter game so even if they start mass production in early 2020s it isn't nothing to hyped about, I would say J-20 took all the glore :D

But with heavy UCAV they have something to bargain about. We are first, it is AI etc. And to be frank UCAV and PGM is what they need lot more then small number of 5gen fighters.


You raise an interesting question...

Why bother with the SU-57 at all, if an evolved "Hunter" drone can do the job better? It will certainly be more stealthy, getting them into the VLO game. It probably won't be as fast, but it's a BIG bird that'll likely carry a lot of fuel. And let's not forget minimal drag, assuming they carry all fuel and weapons internally. I see it as a matter of timing. If the Hunter matures as a platform in say, 5 years and the SU-57's new engine is faltering, it would make more sense to produce Hunters.

Russian aviation is at a critical juncture: Do they get into the 5th gen game way late, or skip it altogether and focus moreso on AI drones to do the deed? Considering the crash, ongoing engine and other troubles.. the future of the SU-57 is looking bleak. Only a big order from a foreign customer can save the day IMO.

Unfortunately for the Russians, I don't think China's going to want or need it. India does need it, but thus far doesn't want it. Given their options though for stealthy alternatives, they may not have a choice..


You cant skip steps or generations in this case. Even if you make an AI drone, its still going to die without stealth.
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mixelflick

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Unread post10 Aug 2020, 17:24

Speaking of stealth and the SU-57...

How in the hell do you NOT use serpentine inlets? I understand the SH and others use radar blockers, but the SH wasn't built from the ground up with stealth in mind. The SU-57 was. It can't be disrupted airflow to the engines - they hold up just find during tailslides, cobra's and like maneuvers. Why no serpentine inlets?

And the shaping on the back of the aircraft? It almost looks as if they started with an all stealth design, then decided 3/4 of the way through "nope, balanced stealth" is enough. I know cost comes into play, but why not finish what you started?

About the best you can say about it is that it's a Super Flanker in looks/performance, just with a better radar signature.
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Unread post10 Aug 2020, 23:29

Early J-20 was not anything as polished as it is today. They may have delayed the program to refinish original goals.
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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 02:41

mixelflick wrote:How in the hell do you NOT use serpentine inlets? I understand the SH and others use radar blockers, but the SH wasn't built from the ground up with stealth in mind. The SU-57 was. It can't be disrupted airflow to the engines - they hold up just find during tailslides, cobra's and like maneuvers. Why no serpentine inlets?

I have heard it claimed that the Su57 actually does use an inlet design that obscures the view of the fan blades from the forward aspect in a way comparable to the set-up in the YF-23:



Will defer to others on the veracity of this claim.
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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 03:37

What we see with our eyes isn't the same as what a radar sees because of the different wavelengths, so having a radar blocker instead of S-ducts isn't necessarily inferior, it's a different set of tradeoffs. The inlets really isn't the Su-57's biggest problems when it comes to stealth. Nozzles and exposed metal pitot tubes are much bigger problems.
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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 04:40

...not to mention that IRST bulb. Yes I know it is supposed to have had sig reduction treatments but I can't imagine it's an ideal shape vis a vis EOTS.
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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 12:42

disconnectedradical wrote:What we see with our eyes isn't the same as what a radar sees because of the different wavelengths, so having a radar blocker instead of S-ducts isn't necessarily inferior, it's a different set of tradeoffs. The inlets really isn't the Su-57's biggest problems when it comes to stealth. Nozzles and exposed metal pitot tubes are much bigger problems.

And riveting, and seams, and large moving surfaces, and edge alignments, and....
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post11 Aug 2020, 17:42

madrat wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:What we see with our eyes isn't the same as what a radar sees because of the different wavelengths, so having a radar blocker instead of S-ducts isn't necessarily inferior, it's a different set of tradeoffs. The inlets really isn't the Su-57's biggest problems when it comes to stealth. Nozzles and exposed metal pitot tubes are much bigger problems.

And riveting, and seams, and large moving surfaces, and edge alignments, and....

The rivets, seams, and surfaces aren't really an issue, since early unpainted F-22s without full RAM also got exposed rivets and seams. Edge alignment in the forward section on Su-57 is generally ok especially on later prototypes that's close to production aircraft, but the big problems are the quite exposed nozzles and those pitot tubes sticking out.

The IRST design is also frankly dumb, because they coated the back of it so that when not in use they turn it backwards so that it's stealthy, but this means once you want to use your IRST, you lost some stealth.
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