Su-57 Felon

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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marauder2048

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Unread post11 Jun 2020, 03:58

My personal favorite is "The Tanks of August" (attached) and not just because David Glantz wrote the foreword.

They attribute only two Russian fixed-wing losses to hostile fire. The rest was more likely attributable to either
Russian or South Ossetian fire.
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weasel1962

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Unread post11 Jun 2020, 06:59

Agreed. The Tank of August articles appear to be a respectable source. The article by Anton Lavrov from pg 99 is a well written account of the losses which as suggested would be 2 losses from fraticide.

The reason why I posted the Australian pathfinder article was their de-emphasis from the numbers to focus on the issues.
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mixelflick

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Unread post11 Jun 2020, 15:00

ricnunes wrote:
mixelflick wrote:Yes, I'll concede one incident isn't indicative about the capability of a jet. However, Iraqi Mig-25's put up a hell of a fight before succumbing to USAF Eagles, and in at least one instance outran them (and their Sparrows). It was clear the Mig-25 was the best Iraqi performer (air to air) of the war, and was no easy mark.



Yes indeed. A (Iraqi) Mig-25 also managed to damage a F-15C and actually won this same engagement where a flight of two Mig-25s forced a flight of two F-15Cs (one of them damaged) to retreat.
So yes, I fully agree that the Mig-25 was Iraq's best performer during DS. However it's curious that during the Iraq-Iran war this didn't seem to be the case where Iraqi Mirage F-1s and even Mig-21s armed with French Missiles seem to have performed better, if I'm not mistaken.

That engagement then, must have been taken apart/analyzed by US intelligence like few others. I'm not aware we have any captured Mig-25's like we do Fulcrums/Flankers. But I bet the speeds involved could have been replicated by drones or F-22's out around Tonopah, S-4 etc.. wherever such testing goes on. But who knows, perhaps it wasn't the Foxbat's speed that allowed it to prevail in that engagement. On the Iraqi F1's/Mig-21's performing better, I'd guess they just didn't want to risk as many Foxbats/have as many to set traps, etc.. That could have accounted for their superior performance as well..

mixelflick wrote:If you'll check the accounts of (Dawood?) Iraqi pilot who downed Speicher's F/A-18, its pretty clear that F/A-18 squadron knew they were under attack. In fact, if I'm not mistaken Speicher's wingman (or perhaps an E-2C) tried to warn him a Foxbat was in the area, closing in. Problem being, his ECM reportedly malfunctioned and the AA-6 that hit him did so with incredible force, shearing off his wing tank (and I think other weapons he was carrying). The poor A-6 that the Iraqi Foxbat then ran down certainly knew he was under attack, saved when the Iraqi GCIO told Dawood not to fire - for fear of fratricide.


That was not exactly the case.
It was not clear that the (entire) F/A-18 flight/squadron was under attack. What happened was that one of the F/A-18's from the same flight as Speicher (it wasn't a wingman but rather someone from another section of the same flight) detected the Mig-25 quite before it was able to attack Speicher and this same F/A-18 pilot asked permission to AWACS (which was an USAF E-3) since it was the only way that he could attack an enemy aircraft in BVR during DS (since the F/A-18 lacked a NCTR mode at the time) but never got any reply from the AWACS. This same pilot VID the aircraft as a Mig-25 when it passed near his F/A-18 and this because the Mig-25 was flying with the AB "turned on" (since this happened during the night).
Had this F/A-18 got the permission from the AWACS to attack the incoming Mig-25 then this same Mig would never be able to attack Speicher's aircraft. But that's war...
After this it seemed that the Iraqi Mig-25 was able to surprise Speicher and ultimately shot him down (where the failure of his aircraft's ECM suite may have helped).

Sounds like there were several missed opportunities then. But as you say, that's war. The whole scenario sounds like the very definition of "fog of war". Hopefully, the F-35's DAS prevents similar events from happening in the future. It has to be confusing enough during the day. At night? Crazy. It's a testament to the pilots skill and bravery (on both sides) they were able to perform as well as they did.

mixelflick wrote:It was expensive to maintain yes, but in the end you usually get what you pay for. It was big, fast, with a good radar and obviously effective missiles. Not a dogfighter, but here it was dogfighting with F-15C's and giving them fits after it decoyed both Sidewinders and Sparrows. I dunno... to me it did exceptionally well, especially considering all of the advantages coalition airpower had over it/its pilots.


Yes, I agree with the above.
The Soviets back then and even the Russians today were and are way behind the US in terms of miniaturization of electronic components so the only way for the Soviets/Russians to be able to develop radars that can 'compete' with US ones is to build bigger but in order to equip fighter aircraft with bigger radars bigger fighter aircraft are needed and IMO that's where the Mig-25 and later the Mig-31 came up. As already mentioned in this thread the Flanker series are or seem to be much better than the Fulcrum family something that IMO is also related to the size of each aircraft where the Flankers due to their much bigger size compared to the Fulcrum are able to carry bigger and therefore better and more powerful radars.

Also IMO, I believe that the Mig-31M is or could be a quite dangerous aircraft against current 4th gen aircraft. I can only imagine how much more dangerous a lower-RCS or 'stealthy' sort of Mig-31 would be. I wonder if the J-20 could be some sort of such aircraft?


Interesting you should mention the miiaturization of electronic components.. as I just re-read a chapter about the SU-27's development where the chief designer didn't think it could compete with the F-15 for that very reason: Soviet avionics were too heavy/bulky. The solution wasn't elegant but I suppose got the job done - make the airframe bigger, and squeeze as much thrust out of the engines as possible.

I honestly don't think the J-20 will turn out to be a stealthy Mig-31, but time will tell...
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weasel1962

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 02:13

The chinese are different from the soviets in that respect. The gap between Chinese IT hardware manufacturing and western isn't that big. One of the main obstacles would be design. If one looks at all the civilian partnerships (almost every major US/European player), they have a clear understanding of civilian aviation avionics from a design standpoint. From a military standpoint, they'd get quite a fair bit from Pakistan (and Israel etc) to at least know the capabilities of 2nd tier warplanes which will definitely filter into their warplanes.

If one looks at the digitized cockpit of PLAAF aircraft (J-10C attached), its a lot cleaner (and modern) than those Russki ones. Then it comes as no surprise why the chinese took the trouble to localize production of their sukhois.
J-10C cockpit.jpeg


Corporate profits came first. It may be a bit too late to roll back those technologies transferred.
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madrat

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 03:23

I hope it's the same guys doing QA for the PLAAF as wish.com!
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hornetfinn

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 08:31

China has comparatively a lot more modern and far bigger electronics industry than Soviet Union had but they do have some rather serious shortcomings compared to Western countries. For example they import huge number of electronics components from other countries (like Taiwan and South Korea). They simply lack the capabilities to produce truly modern components themselves and have to buy those from outside. They are working hard to change this and have produced some fairly impressive products totally domestically. But they are still quite a bit behind in many areas and their most advanced products tend to be based on Western technology. I don't think they can produce competitive specialized advanced components like DSPs, thermal imaging detectors or T/R modules for AESA radars. That's not to say that they couldn't produce capable systems, but they are more than likely less capable than similar Western products.

I think Russia has similar problems with electronics and Su-57 seems to be quite a lot behind compared to F-22 and F-35. Su-57 main radar has less T/R modules than AN/APG-81, let alone AN/APG-77. I'd say that it's rather likely that those modules are individually also less capable than those used in AN/APG-81. It also doesn't have imaging infrared MLD/MAWS but rather very simple and short ranged UV based one. But naturally there are a lot of other fighter aircraft out there that it can definitely compete with even when it comes to avionics. For Western aircraft that includes even the latest variants of Super Hornet, Eurocanards, F-16 and F-15. Then there are the J-20 that it might well be competitive with when it comes to avionics.
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mixelflick

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 16:26

So really, it boils down to this...

Will the Russians be able to mass produce a quasi-stealth fighter, with 3rd rate avionics and a questionable second stage engine? And if the answer to that question is yes, who besides Russia is going to pay top dollar for it??

India probably needs a good stealth fighter the most, and they're not buying them so.... The SU-57 as it stands looks to be a Vladimir Putin vanity project. Nothing more, nothing less. It seems as if the SU-35 was as far as Russian aviation could go, in developing a finished product that appeals to foreign customers.

If you were a former or current Russian arms client, would you buy the SU-57 (as is)?
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milosh

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 17:49

madrat wrote:gideonic-

Nice argument. I've never heard that argument before. It would put a spin on the early days of the invasion.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh7KmtwLUbw
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falcon.16

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 18:55

mixelflick wrote:So really, it boils down to this...

Will the Russians be able to mass produce a quasi-stealth fighter, with 3rd rate avionics and a questionable second stage engine? And if the answer to that question is yes, who besides Russia is going to pay top dollar for it??

India probably needs a good stealth fighter the most, and they're not buying them so.... The SU-57 as it stands looks to be a Vladimir Putin vanity project. Nothing more, nothing less. It seems as if the SU-35 was as far as Russian aviation could go, in developing a finished product that appeals to foreign customers.

If you were a former or current Russian arms client, would you buy the SU-57 (as is)?


Russia need the Su-57, Russia can not go to the international market and buy a 5th generation fighter. For this, it is not important how much good will be the Su-57, Russia has not other option, and they must not buy J-20´s, it would be devastating for its aeronautical industry.

For this i am not agree is a Putin vanity proyect, Su-57 it's a matter of survival of your industry.
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milosh

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 19:33

hornetfinn wrote:I think Russia has similar problems with electronics and Su-57 seems to be quite a lot behind compared to F-22 and F-35. Su-57 main radar has less T/R modules than AN/APG-81, let alone AN/APG-77. I'd say that it's rather likely that those modules are individually also less capable than those used in AN/APG-81.


N036 have also side antennas which take spaces and main antenna isn't noticeable bigger then APG-81.
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charlielima223

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Unread post12 Jun 2020, 23:27

milosh wrote:
hornetfinn wrote:I think Russia has similar problems with electronics and Su-57 seems to be quite a lot behind compared to F-22 and F-35. Su-57 main radar has less T/R modules than AN/APG-81, let alone AN/APG-77. I'd say that it's rather likely that those modules are individually also less capable than those used in AN/APG-81.


N036 have also side antennas which take spaces and main antenna isn't noticeable bigger then APG-81.


How useful are those side antennas are... really? F-22 was supposed to have side looking arrays but those were dropped. F-35 doesnt have them and Eurocanards seem to prefer mechanically steerable arrays (Captor-E for example). Not saying Russian fighter designs should just follow the crowd, but there must be a good reason why no other current fighter jet has side looking radar arrays.
As hornetfinn was mentioning, it isnt the size of the radar on the Su-57, rather it is how advance it is. Others have noted on many topics of apparent lack of advance technology (specifically in electronics and computers) that Russian industry has. The Su-57 may very have an AESA radar but others (including myself) here are questioning just how good it really is or will be.
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milosh

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Unread post13 Jun 2020, 16:15

charlielima223 wrote:How useful are those side antennas are... really? F-22 was supposed to have side looking arrays but those were dropped. F-35 doesnt have them and Eurocanards seem to prefer mechanically steerable arrays (Captor-E for example). Not saying Russian fighter designs should just follow the crowd, but there must be a good reason why no other current fighter jet has side looking radar arrays.


Quite useful for Russians. They still have problems with IIR sekeer for IR missiles and Vympel showed mini radar AAM similar concept as Peregrine. So it could be they are going with radar guided missile instead R-73/R-74 (in future).

Having side arrays would be quite beneficial for such missile if would allow HOBS and LOAL capability which would be impossible with fixed array and in case of rotating AESA/PESA it is easier but with rotating radar in direction of target to guide missile you can't scan nice part of sky nor guide missiles against targets which are opposite from target you are attacking.

charlielima223 wrote:As hornetfinn was mentioning, it isnt the size of the radar on the Su-57, rather it is how advance it is. Others have noted on many topics of apparent lack of advance technology (specifically in electronics and computers) that Russian industry has. The Su-57 may very have an AESA radar but others (including myself) here are questioning just how good it really is or will be.


And did I say they aren't behind? I only point out what is problem when comparing N036 and APG-81. Even if N036 have same modules you can't expect to maximise space usage for main radar as in case of APG-81.
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Unread post16 Jun 2020, 19:41

milosh wrote:
Quite useful for Russians. They still have problems with IIR sekeer for IR missiles and Vympel showed mini radar AAM similar concept as Peregrine. So it could be they are going with radar guided missile instead R-73/R-74 (in future).

Having side arrays would be quite beneficial for such missile if would allow HOBS and LOAL capability which would be impossible with fixed array and in case of rotating AESA/PESA it is easier but with rotating radar in direction of target to guide missile you can't scan nice part of sky nor guide missiles against targets which are opposite from target you are attacking.


I think more advanced or modern western fighter aircraft got around the issue with a combination of better IR seekers and data-link. What one aircraft sensor sees, all the others in the flight see as well and can use sensors from other aircraft to guide the missile. Essentially one aircraft acts as the spotter and the other is the shooter.
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 Jun 2020, 16:41

Not much news since the Christmas Eve crash. They put out a few saving face stories shortly thereafter, but its anyone's guess as to what's going on right now. Still no cause cited from the accident investigation (let's hope they're doing one).

Beautiful piece of engineering, but clearly still a lot of bugs to be worked out..
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milosh

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Unread post17 Jun 2020, 16:57

mixelflick wrote:Not much news since the Christmas Eve crash. They put out a few saving face stories shortly thereafter, but its anyone's guess as to what's going on right now. Still no cause cited from the accident investigation (let's hope they're doing one).

Beautiful piece of engineering, but clearly still a lot of bugs to be worked out..


New VVS commander doesn't help either, he isn't fighter fan, he isn't pilot at all, army man and when you ask army man which fighter is best fighter, he would say bomber :D

New commander favors drones, pgm and bombers. S-70 can be consider his pet project.
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