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Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 05 Aug 2020, 22:12
by jessmo112
J-20 versus Rafael.
It seems the war of words is heating up.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpec ... alth-jets/

The article is kinda glossing over the fact that the French planes won't even detect the J-20.
India needs a stealth fighter yesterday.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2020, 09:55
by wil59
jessmo112 wrote:J-20 versus Rafael.
It seems the war of words is heating up.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpec ... alth-jets/

The article is kinda glossing over the fact that the French planes won't even detect the J-20.
India needs a stealth fighter yesterday.

Crap article from A to Z. Chinese propaganda that says the Rafale is a 3rd generation aircraft. To say that the Meteor at a range of 50mn !. I don't know how a newspaper like Forb that should be serious about publishing a Chinese-style press article. Article that should not even appear on the Forum.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2020, 10:48
by disconnectedradical
wil59 wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:J-20 versus Rafael.
It seems the war of words is heating up.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaelpec ... alth-jets/

The article is kinda glossing over the fact that the French planes won't even detect the J-20.
India needs a stealth fighter yesterday.

Crap article from A to Z. Chinese propaganda that says the Rafale is a 3rd generation aircraft. To say that the Meteor at a range of 50mn !. I don't know how a newspaper like Forb that should be serious about publishing a Chinese-style press article. Article that should not even appear on the Forum.


Chinese define fighter generations differently, what we can 4th gen, by their definition is 3rd gen. By their definition they consider F-22, F-35, J-20 to be 4th gen.

India gambled on working with Russia to have a version of the Su-57 as their stealth fighter, but they were unsatisfied and left the project. There’s nothing they can really do at this point, and no, I don’t trust them enough to sell them F-35s anytime soon. They’ll have to make do with whatever advanced 4th gen fighter is available right now or try to develop their own.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 06 Aug 2020, 10:55
by weasel1962
Yup. J5/6 = 1G. J7/8 = 2G, J-10/11 = 3G, J-20/31 = 4G. That's how they view it.

China of course thinks their aircraft are unbeatable. Same goes for the Indians. Reflected in how people o/s China view the respective transport fleets also. India with a transport fleet capacity of 3000 tons is massive. China with a transport fleet capacity of 4000 to 5000 tons is small, underpowered, lacking etc.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 16 Aug 2020, 11:24
by milosh
It look like they are working on new stealth (two seater) which use J-20 as base:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/militar ... gn=3097183

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2020, 06:10
by jessmo112
Its already underpowered, they are going to make it heavier?

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2020, 12:01
by Scorpion1alpha
Whatever you think of the J-20, you gotta admit, this is a cool photo of it.
Image

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2020, 14:08
by mixelflick
milosh wrote:It look like they are working on new stealth (two seater) which use J-20 as base:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/militar ... gn=3097183


I'm wondering if its stealth properties are better than they had hoped, and thus this version being produced.

The point about it being under-powered is a good one, as the weight of a 2nd crew member, E/W suite etc. will just exacerbate that. I'm thinking that might not last for long though, depending on how successful their espionage efforts are. The last thing I heard about work on a more powerful engine was that it wasn't going so well. But who knows, that might have just been mis-information put out by the Chinese.

Good looking bird though IMO. Certainly "different" than our stealth designs...

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 17 Aug 2020, 18:18
by milosh
Two seater variant if it is true have side by side cockpit isn't design to be fighter nor interceptor as basic J-20 is.

So lacking thrust doesn't mean lot if they are working on some kind of stealthy F-111.

There was info earlier China is working on two bombers, one strategic (H-20) and one regional. Regional one. So this thing could be that regional bomber.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2020, 00:48
by madrat
There is one reason to publish this 'project'. That is solely to elicit responses from regional competitors.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2020, 04:21
by weasel1962
I don't think there is enough weight data to validate a claim that the J-20 is under-powered. The F-35 carries 13-18k lbs of fuel but has only 75% thrust of the twin AL-35F J-20. No one here thinks the F-35 is under-powered. The Su-27/34 are larger planes than the J-20. Is the Su-34 also under-powered?

The 58k lb thrust F-15E is a d*mn good bomb truck. Based on those specs, Not sure why a J-20 can't replicate some of those qualities. They could be however trade offs e.g. smaller fuel tank/payloads?

On a separate note, China TV had a broadcast on its JSOW equivalent (1000lb class 60+km ranged wingkit cargo bomb).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAqF3l-HHw0

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2020, 12:16
by jessmo112
It has an internal weapons bay.
That alone will make it heavier than a Flanker.
Someone said before" empty space is heavy"
Shes a fat pig with a long movement arm.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 18 Aug 2020, 14:56
by weasel1962
Not by as much as one thinks.

Consider the empty weight of the Su-57 which also has internal bays vs the Su-27 or worse the Su-34.

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2020, 01:55
by element1loop
weasel1962 wrote:I don't think there is enough weight data to validate a claim that the J-20 is under-powered. The F-35 carries 13-18k lbs of fuel but has only 75% thrust of the twin AL-35F J-20. No one here thinks the F-35 is under-powered. The Su-27/34 are larger planes than the J-20. Is the Su-34 also under-powered?

The 58k lb thrust F-15E is a d*mn good bomb truck. Based on those specs, Not sure why a J-20 can't replicate some of those qualities. They could be however trade offs e.g. smaller fuel tank/payloads?

On a separate note, China TV had a broadcast on its JSOW equivalent (1000lb class 60+km ranged wingkit cargo bomb).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAqF3l-HHw0


With max fuel and weapons as fuel burns down the J-20 P:W is quite similar to J-10. F-15E always has better P:W and it gets quite a bit better, sooner, as its fuel burns down to and past 50% level. I don't think they compare well.

The J-20 does have F-35 sensor/comms and network ISR targeting layout which is IMO, the real issue even if it doesn't have attack weapons yet, or the mature sensors. It's going to be a big threat even without the attack weapons on board. Especially if it does get a real engine capability improvement in 5 to 10 years that enables external standoff weapon delivery, on top of internal stealthy A2A.

It's how those J20 sensors and comms are exploited as network data which will be the problem, near term, as opposed to becoming a bomb truck later. Their P:W is a bit meh, if they just use it with VLO tactics to leverage the ISR data flow for targeting, instead of lose them engaging in aggressive A2A. I don't see why they would focus on A2A more than absolutely needed, to kill tankers or other main enablers, they need a lot more numbers and system maturity first.

weasel1962 wrote:Is the Su-34 also under-powered?


Su34 isn't a dedicated A2A platform though, and J20 isn't a bomb truck. It does need more thrust than it has to compete with the F-22A at high altitude. That's what it's supposed to be a reply to. But LO design means it can get by without the added thrust to do that, for now.

[Better hope it never has an F-35A chasing its tail though ... :D ]

Re: J-20 goes operational again

Unread postPosted: 19 Aug 2020, 05:02
by weasel1962
element1loop wrote:With max fuel and weapons as fuel burns down the J-20 P:W is quite similar to J-10. F-15E always has better P:W and it gets quite a bit better, sooner, as its fuel burns down to and past 50% level. I don't think they compare well.


I don't think there is enough public data to validate that point. No one knows what the fuel capacity of the J-20 really is. What we do know is the F-15E's MTOW is ~81k lbs whereas the J-20 is est at 75k lbs. Agree that F-15E MTOW will only be achieved with CFTs.

For the J-20, there's a bit of over-estimation on the fuel loads and weight based on MTOW. Clearly with the J-20 seen lugging 2 EFTs, the T-W without those EFT's probably higher. Single engined fighters like J-10 without the 2 EFTs probably has quite a bit of performance boost on the T-W front. I suspect it'd probably mirror twin engined fighters better.