J-20 goes operational again

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post04 Jun 2020, 23:34

jessmo112 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:Did this guy just blame GOD, for me not agreeing on the J-20s size?!
Anyway why are you so dead set on trying to convince us anyway? Are you a defence contractor? Why does it matter to you if the J-20 is bigger than a flanker?
NONE of us know for certain the planes weight and size.
The plane is noticeably larger than most fighters.


As a matter of fact I do work for a defense contractor. But that's not the point. It doesn't matter personally to me, but if I see people making questionable statement even when most available information shows it's incorrect, I'll call it out.

J-20 probably won't be lighter than a Flanker, just because it needs to carry internal bays, have large fuel capacity, etc. But in dimensions it's smaller than Flanker, that's a fact. Bigger than most fighters, yes. Bigger than Flanker, no.


See, just the fact you work for the Chinese government negatively influences our opinion. Its that and the fact that the questions and facts dont add up. Your trying to make the J-20 and F-35 in the same weight abd size class ( ok im being extra) but they odviously are not.


What a pile of total tripe. I work for a US defense contractor. Unless you're accusing me of working for the Chinese government because what I say don't agree with your views? LOL.

Didn't I say J-20 probably won't be lighter than Su-27, which itself is heavier than F-35? My point is J-20 may be large for a fighter but not especially so and not F-111 size.
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disconnectedradical

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Unread post04 Jun 2020, 23:43

zhangmdev wrote:Some thought about that image. From the leading J-20 to the trailing J-16, perspective changes significantly. The camera is about right on top of the leading J-20. If the trailing J-16 is a car, one can almost see its license plate. Seamingly the image is cropped from a much larger photo taken from a quite wide angled lens, presumably by a drone at low altitude. But all tiles on the runway are straight and of the same size. There are ways to correct lens distortion, for example

https://tkhsecurity.com/wp-content/uplo ... ection.jpg

One'd expect some distortion, like things stretched a bit, but everything is perfect, those J-16s are of the same length and wingspan. Nothing is out of place as far as I can see. But lacking of distinguishable shadow makes things floating and flat. Human perception needs shadow to make shape and depth. Of course I am not saying that image is of questionable nature, and I have no idea about how an ubersecret steath jet should look like under an overcast day.

Lastly, the image is almost deliberately making a point: see, it is not as big as you think.


weasel1962 might have a point, the engines on the Flankers is probably the WS-10. Compare that nozzle with the AL-31 nozzle, it's clear the J-20 has AL-31 while Flanker nozzle does not and looks like a WS-10 nozzle.

Here is WS-10 on the left, AL-31 on the right, mounted on the J-10. Seems like WS-10 nozzle is bigger diameter.
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zhangmdev

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Unread post05 Jun 2020, 00:27

Hard to tell from images. Al-31 nozzle seems extented longer, may give an impression that it is narrower. Tail boom structure could be different. Also nozzle exit area is changable.
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Img388329048.jpg
al-31 ws-10
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weasel1962

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Unread post05 Jun 2020, 01:27

The J-16 unit is identified per below (90 years celebration). J-16s are WS-10 equipped. Only the J-10/11s have both types of engines. 78x7x are serials for 176 brigade.
J-16 78077 - 176. Brigade 20170731.jpg


Clearer images of J-20As from the same unit show the saw tooth edges that define the AL-31F equipped J-20As.
J-20A 78277.jpg

78276 J-20A.jpg
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jessmo112

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Unread post13 Jul 2020, 01:12

J-20 is a real real stealth fighter now

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ter-thrust
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Corsair1963

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Unread post13 Jul 2020, 03:25

The question now is can China produce the J-20 and later the J-31 is sufficient numbers to counter the US and her Allies???
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sferrin

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Unread post13 Jul 2020, 16:18

Corsair1963 wrote:The question now is can China produce the J-20 and later the J-31 is sufficient numbers to counter the US and her Allies???


Not really a question. Of course they can. They have the money, the know how, and the will.
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Unread post23 Jul 2020, 13:37

jessmo112 wrote:J-20 is a real real stealth fighter now

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ter-thrust


But wait, isn't that what they said before... when they introduced it?

I wouldn't be so certain of Chine being able to produce it in really big numbers. The US with all its $ and other resources only built 195 Raptors. Sure we're building thousands of F-35's, but that's a light/medium fighter specifically designed to be built in numbers. Plus, the Chinese have a LOT of other big $ projects to fund: 3 different types of up-rated Flankers, up-rated J-10C's, new ultra long range AAM's, new Stealth bomber (possibly 2), space program, new Ford sized aircraft carriers, new hypersonic weapons etc..

They have a lot of $ and a lot of talent, but their resources (like ours) are not unlimited...
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Unread post24 Jul 2020, 03:38

Firstly, the Chinese don't have to spend US$33.582 billion on F-22 R&D. Secondly, J-10s and J-11/16s don't really have vey high unit cost of production. What is noted is they have a build rate of ~70+ fighters & bombers per year which sustains about 70+ air brigades. Factually, what the Chinese have built thus far are ~10 pre-production J-20s and enough production J-20s to fill 2 training brigades and start a combat brigade in the span of a few short years (~30-50).

The pace of production is currently similar to J-10. Over the course of 20+ years, ~400-500 J-10s have been built used by ~15 identified brigades (each brigade generally has 24/28 fighters). Over the next decade, I think we can expect to see J-20s in a few more airbases.

What should be reassuring is that although China's defense spending is relatively high by China standards, its actually 1981/82 levels by US standards. But the fact that they are doing what they are doing at that expenditure levels is a reflection of its very low cost base. They have a lot more budget leeway (as a % of GDP) to ramp up if they need to which is what we will likely see to pay for the CVs, etc coming up.
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sferrin

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Unread post24 Jul 2020, 11:48

mixelflick wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:J-20 is a real real stealth fighter now

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.scmp.c ... ter-thrust


But wait, isn't that what they said before... when they introduced it?

I wouldn't be so certain of Chine being able to produce it in really big numbers. The US with all its $ and other resources only built 195 Raptors.


That was a political decision. You can thank Bob Gates and Gordon England for that.
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sferrin

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Unread post24 Jul 2020, 11:50

weasel1962 wrote:What should be reassuring is that although China's defense spending is relatively high by China standards, its actually 1981/82 levels by US standards.


How much does an Engineer make in the US? How much in China? A soldier? A yard worker? How much does it cost to train, equip, and feed a soldier in the US vs China? How much does paperwork cost in the US vs China? In real terms, China probably passed the US years ago.
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milosh

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Unread post24 Jul 2020, 19:01

mixelflick wrote:They have a lot of $ and a lot of talent, but their resources (like ours) are not unlimited...


First, they are totally different economical system probable no where you have anything similar so counting money doesn't work. For example buying paper yuan is quite hard outside China.

Second, their military budget isn't spend on wars, veterans, lobbyists etc.

Third, building almost anything in China is lot cheaper then anywhere in world, and this isn't just because of cheapness, but because of their industrial might.
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jessmo112

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Unread post24 Jul 2020, 22:12

The industrial might that can barely build an 80s engine?
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Unread post24 Jul 2020, 22:29

jessmo112 wrote:The industrial might that can barely build an 80s engine?

The F119 is an 80s engine. Has anyone built a better supercruise engine? No? Okay then. If they pull off an F119 analog then they are in 2nd place in the global engine war, even if they are 40 years behind the US.
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milosh

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Unread post25 Jul 2020, 05:34

jessmo112 wrote:The industrial might that can barely build an 80s engine?


Germany in WW2 built excellent jet fighter while 100% US jet was worse then propeller, but US industrial might was much bigger then German one.
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