F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 03:57
by rowbeartoe
While it seems the F-15X could provide some roles in the immediate future and even less in the distant future I have a MAJOR concern with making more of them vs other options.

The good and okay from how I see it: I think roles such as an interceptor, joint fighter with 5th gen jets (missile carrier or a decoy for example), or using it against other 4th gen fighters seem good. Even a Satellite killer isn't to bad. Also, while not cost affective, it could also be used in place of older F-15 upgrades as a "bonus".

The Bad from how I see it: Fighting 5th gen fighters or modern defenses is where I see the money being thrown away and even worse pilots getting injured or killed. I remember seeing videos of how 4 F-16's (my favorite) or 4 F-15's getting destroyed by an F-22 (A Jet with an introduction date of Dec 15th 2005- already 14 years ago!).

So the question is wouldn't it be better to pay more for the F-15 SE variant- something that should have a better chance in the future against modern adversities? Or perhaps just have more F-35s or spend more for a F-22 hybrid? Finally, why not just pay the extra cost for the F-22 reboot?

How I see it is, UNLESS radar in the future can render stealth and put everyone on the 4th gen playing field I just don't see how the F-15/F-16/F-18 can survive.

And I know it's not in the Subject line- but why not see if an F-16 stealth fighter can be made as a cheaper compliment to the F-35?

My point to all this is that I see little value in the F-15X vs other options for that kind of price being asked.
It should be noted- I'm not a military fighter pilot/expert. This is just based off of what I read from here and around.

Thank you everyone!

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 04:23
by wrightwing
rowbeartoe wrote:While it seems the F-15X could provide some roles in the immediate future and even less in the distant future I have a MAJOR concern with making more of them vs other options.

The good and okay from how I see it: I think roles such as an interceptor, joint fighter with 5th gen jets (missile carrier or a decoy for example), or using it against other 4th gen fighters seem good. Even a Satellite killer isn't to bad. Also, while not cost affective, it could also be used in place of older F-15 upgrades as a "bonus".

The Bad from how I see it: Fighting 5th gen fighters or modern defenses is where I see the money being thrown away and even worse pilots getting injured or killed. I remember seeing videos of how 4 F-16's (my favorite) or 4 F-15's getting destroyed by an F-22 (A Jet with an introduction date of Dec 15th 2005- already 14 years ago!).

So the question is wouldn't it be better to pay more for the F-15 SE variant- something that should have a better chance in the future against modern adversities? Or perhaps just have more F-35s or spend more for a F-22 hybrid? Finally, why not just pay the extra cost for the F-22 reboot?

How I see it is, UNLESS radar in the future can render stealth and put everyone on the 4th gen playing field I just don't see how the F-15/F-16/F-18 can survive.

And I know it's not in the Subject line- but why not see if an F-16 stealth fighter can be made as a cheaper compliment to the F-35?

My point to all this is that I see little value in the F-15X vs other options for that kind of price being asked.
It should be noted- I'm not a military fighter pilot/expert. This is just based off of what I read from here and around.

Thank you everyone!


There is no such thing as a stealth F-16, much less being cheaper than F-35s.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 06:58
by hornetfinn
wrightwing wrote:
rowbeartoe wrote:How I see it is, UNLESS radar in the future can render stealth and put everyone on the 4th gen playing field I just don't see how the F-15/F-16/F-18 can survive.

And I know it's not in the Subject line- but why not see if an F-16 stealth fighter can be made as a cheaper compliment to the F-35?


There is no such thing as a stealth F-16, much less being cheaper than F-35s.


Exactly. Basically F-35 is a stealth F-16 (similar role and dimensions) and there is no realistic way of making cheaper aircraft with good avionics and capabilities. Even currently F-35 is about the same price as 4++ gen fighters and seems to become cheaper than those aircraft pretty soon. Hell, even latest F-16 variants aren't really cheaper than F-35 AFAIK.

Also there is no realistic future radar which could level the playing field between VLO 5th gen fighters and earlier generation fighters. It would require totally unknown and unforeseen technologies and associated theories. Even if quantum radar becomes reality and works as advertised, it will still see 4th gen fighters much further away than 5th gen fighters. It could only have better capability against VLO targets than current radar systems as it could in theory better filter out real signals from background noise. But still the return from VLO targets are going to be much smaller than from 4th gen fighters and thus the range much shorter.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 10:17
by kei80
I can briefly list the below reasons for F-15X:

A) Requirement to replace old 4th Gen jets and F-35 production line is quite filled at this moment.(I maybe wrong)
B) New airframe with minimum cost. It is noted that aircraft cost is not the cheapest at this moment but there are cost-saving of reusing existing infrastructure, reduction in pilot training, low development cost are the main reasons.
C) Ability to carry larger weapons which cannot fit into F-35.
E) Maintain Boeing in jet business, if only left with LM, there will not be any competitive advantage in future jet competition.

I guess B) will answer your question of not getting F-22 , F-15SE as F-15X will be using existing upgrades done by overseas customer which bear some of the development cost.

About survivability of 4 or 5th gen jet against evolved threats, I guess there are future programs to take care of it but there are still conflicts happening in low-threat environment which a 4th gen jet can do the job and save airframe hours on 5th gen jet.

Anyway, above are just my 2cents.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 12:41
by madrat
I'm not interested in handouts to Boeing. What makes their design any more valid that previous generations of discontinued production lines? Lockheed Martin has no fewer than three families of product solutions that I'd build before F-15X: F-22, F-35, and F-16. I can consciously justify F-16 with CFT and an enlarged spine for maximum internal space much easier than an F-15.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 15:52
by disconnectedradical
I think at this time buying any F-15 variant is just waste of money. Even with F-15SE, you'll be paying huge money for something inferior to F-35. If you can throw that kind of money around you might as well restart F-22 production, which is also a bad idea but even that's better than this F-15EX nonsense.

F-35 production capacity is not even fully used yet, so just increase production if there's a problem with number of fighters. Also, use this pointless F-15EX money to fund F-22 MLU. For example, give it an IRST, more efficient engines, etc.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 16:03
by mixelflick
The only real solution is to just buy more F-35's/accelerate the buy.

There is nothing the Eagle can do that the F-35 can't, other than perhaps cost per flight hour. I would expect the F-35's to come down over time, just like with any new aircraft. The F-35 will be able to carry large, external weapons like hypersonics (where I think all of this originated from). It won't be as stealthy as internal carriage, but it will be infinitely better/lower RCS than the F-15X carrying the same.

This whole mess could have been avoided if the F-35 had more of an air superiority slant coming out of the gate. That isn't it's primary mission though, so many assumed it couldn't hang with Russia's SU-35's, China's J-11D or J-20. It most certainly can, it's just that public perception is still "stuck". Hopefully, the 2019 demo team will help to change that. I think it already is.

Just look at the Red/Green Flag exercise results. It's killing everything - on the air, on the ground. Anywhere from 15-1 to 20-1 air to air, depending how you count them. That's far and away superior to the best would could manage with F-15's/16's (about 3-1). Will it be invincible? Of course not.

But the ratio is awful lopsided in its favor. The F-35 is cheaper. It does more. It performs better. Build it then, and keep building it..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 16:59
by SpudmanWP
Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 19:30
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:


Just look at the Red/Green Flag exercise results. It's killing everything - on the air, on the ground. Anywhere from 15-1 to 20-1 air to air, depending how you count them. That's far and away superior to the best would could manage with F-15's/16's (about 3-1). Will it be invincible? Of course not.

But the ratio is awful lopsided in its favor. The F-35 is cheaper. It does more. It performs better. Build it then, and keep building it..

Actually, the lowest kill ratio it's had, was 20:1. In the last Red Flag, it was 28:1. Your points are otherwise correct.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 19:53
by mixelflick
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


See, it's here where I'm confused.

Chip Burke (or however you spell it) said in an interview the F-35 had considerably better persistence vs. the F-15. I don't think he specified though, which version. But he clearly indicated the F-35 could stay longer in the battle space before hitting a tanker.

An F-15 with CFT's carries more fuel, but you also have to factor in external stores, drag etc.. If there is an advantage the F-15 holds insofar as unrefueled range, it's hard to imagine its a lot more. The F-35 generates so much lift, there is so little drag and you're talking 1 engine vs. 2. Having a hard time understanding under what conditions the F-15 would out-range it..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:00
by SpudmanWP
If you only load 2 AAMs and 2 bombs on a F-15E then you should be ok.

However, they don't usually fight that way as 4 AAMs minimum (if not more) is the norm as are more than two bombs.

Context is king.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 20:55
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Every single combat mission (post AMRAAM) of the F-15E had a few things in common. CFTs, 2 AIM-9, 2 AIM-20, 2 610gal wing tanks, TGT Pod, NAV pod. The only variable is what was on the CFTs and centerline. two GBU-10s and nothing else was done. Remember, total fuel load doesn't matter as much as fuel fraction. Fuel Fraction, Lift over Drag, and TSFC will give you theoretical endurance. If two planes have the same fuel fraction and TSFC then whoever has the best L/D will have the best range/endurance. The F-15E can have an unrivaled fuel fraction, but only if it sacrifices L/D. I am losing count of the number of times I have had to discuss the F-15E vs the F-35A in terms of range. With the same payload, the Strike Eagle can out range the Stubby, but not by much.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 01:03
by southernphantom
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


I wholly disagree. Longer unrefueled range permits the tankers to stay further from the target, which does wonders for their survivability. Remember that tankers are currently sitting ducks without an escort.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 04:07
by Fox1
I'm just happy to finally see fighter aircraft being purchased in quantity again. I'm not going to squabble too much over how many from each manufacturer's production line is chosen. We have a need and the room for both aircraft. And much of that present need is a direct result of not purchasing enough combat aircraft over the past 20 years. So yeah, I'm just happy to finally see a "buy" attitude coming from Washington, which is refreshing after years and years of neglect. It is just terribly sad that attitude wasn't around back in 2009/2010. It sure would have been nice to have had another hundred or so Raptors in the inventory today. Ceasing production of that aircraft at 187 was one of the stupidest decisions I've seen in my lifetime. Obama and Gates sure were some amazing visionaries, huh?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 06:46
by rowbeartoe
Fox1 wrote: It sure would have been nice to have had another hundred or so Raptors in the inventory today. Ceasing production of that aircraft at 187 was one of the stupidest decisions I've seen in my lifetime. Obama and Gates sure were some amazing visionaries, huh?


Yes! Then we wouldn't be talking about F-15x or SE etc. That and Dick Cheney and his dislike of the F-14 for a bigger F-18. If only the Navy/Marines went for a F-22 variant at the time rather than the super bug. Perhaps the F-22 would have never been discontinued then?

Anyhow- that said- I guess it's a good thing we are getting more aircraft and the F-35 dropped in price for hopeful more purchases. I just hope that the F-15X, should it arrive in 144 or so aircraft that they are used to their best advantage and save airframe time from the F-22 until we get a hybrid 5th gen fighter or 6th gen fighter (hopefully a piloted one).

As a fan of the F-16- be nice if we continue to upgrade the ones we have so that they network with our 5th gen fighters. To me it's still the most beautiful bird ever made. :)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 07:28
by Corsair1963
madrat wrote:I'm not interested in handouts to Boeing. What makes their design any more valid that previous generations of discontinued production lines? Lockheed Martin has no fewer than three families of product solutions that I'd build before F-15X: F-22, F-35, and F-16. I can consciously justify F-16 with CFT and an enlarged spine for maximum internal space much easier than an F-15.




Honestly, this just shows what a "scam" the F-15EX is....As the USAF is in the process of upgrading it's remaining F-16 Fleet to the V Standard with a SLEP to boot. These aircraft are available "today" (surplus) and would just be inserted into existing production line.


They could be had more quickly and far more cheaply than the F-15EX's. While, being more that adequate for the task... :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 07:49
by Corsair1963
Fox1 wrote:I'm just happy to finally see fighter aircraft being purchased in quantity again. I'm not going to squabble too much over how many from each manufacturer's production line is chosen. We have a need and the room for both aircraft. And much of that present need is a direct result of not purchasing enough combat aircraft over the past 20 years. So yeah, I'm just happy to finally see a "buy" attitude coming from Washington, which is refreshing after years and years of neglect. It is just terribly sad that attitude wasn't around back in 2009/2010. It sure would have been nice to have had another hundred or so Raptors in the inventory today. Ceasing production of that aircraft at 187 was one of the stupidest decisions I've seen in my lifetime. Obama and Gates sure were some amazing visionaries, huh?



I hate to break it to you. Yet, even the US doesn't have an endless Defense Budget. As a matter of fact we are in "Trillions" of dollars of debt. Also, while the Republicans are happy to spend $750 Billion on the US Military next year. The Democrats would like to spend $733 Billion or even less. Let's not forget they have the MAJORITY in the US House and fair odds of beating Trump in the next election. Hell, they even have a shot at the US Senate. This would give them 2-3 branches of Government. Hell, if that happens the $733 Billion would look real real good!
:shock: :shock: :shock:

In short we "can't afford both". Which, is why we need to increase F-35 Production today and skip the far less capable F-15EX. As we may have less funds in the future. (odds are good)

As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 19:44
by blain
madrat wrote:I'm not interested in handouts to Boeing. What makes their design any more valid that previous generations of discontinued production lines? Lockheed Martin has no fewer than three families of product solutions that I'd build before F-15X: F-22, F-35, and F-16. I can consciously justify F-16 with CFT and an enlarged spine for maximum internal space much easier than an F-15.


If anything I'd rather keep NG in the fighter business. They built a competitive design in the ATF competition. Boeing did not in the JSF. Boeing which supposedly excels at large aircraft manufacturing can barely mange with the KC-46A.

What was the last Boeing - in house - combat aircraft design which was truly groundbreaking? The B-52? None in terms of stealth. LM has produced the F-22, F-35, and the F-117.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 17 Jun 2019, 19:47
by blain
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


And how does it get that range? External fuel tanks and CFTs. Both have a negative impact on performance. The CFTs also has a negative impact on the F-15s ability maneuver.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 10:15
by vilters
blain wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


And how does it get that range? External fuel tanks and CFTs. Both have a negative impact on performance. The CFTs also has a negative impact on the F-15s ability maneuver.



With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 14:18
by zero-one
I still think the reason why the F-15X is being bought is the same reason why the B-52 is still around.
The B-1 and B-2 can do everything the BUFF can and do it better. But you don't always need a B-1 or 2 specially when the enemy has nothing more than small arms and mortars.

Same way the enemy isn't always a S-35 or Su-57, most of the time its just a Su-22 or 24. You'd want to save up on your precious F-22 and F-35 flight hours for the real hard battles not for intercepting the routine Bear over Alaska.

Boeing claims that the F-15X will cost less to buy, fly and maintain than the F-35A. Now I know a lot of people here will dispute that, but the USAF brass aren't idiots, they won't buy into this unless Boeing presents some hard numbers. Apparently Beoing offered it in a locked price contract IIRC

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 14:28
by zero-one
vilters wrote:
With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.


I wouldn't go this far. I still prefer F-35 test pilot Tom Morganfeld's words.

HOBS and HMD may diminish the relevance of maneuverability to a degree, but maneuverability will always be important on a fighter


And I may add, the Russians have always been second best in the maneuverability game. The US has always had better dog fighters in every era of history including today.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 15:06
by mixelflick
zero-one wrote:
vilters wrote:
With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.


I wouldn't go this far. I still prefer F-35 test pilot Tom Morganfeld's words.

HOBS and HMD may diminish the relevance of maneuverability to a degree, but maneuverability will always be important on a fighter


And I may add, the Russians have always been second best in the maneuverability game. The US has always had better dog fighters in every era of history including today.


I'm not so sure about the latter statement...

Their Mig-35's, SU-27SM2's and 3's, SU-30's, SU-35's and soon to be SU-57 are fearsome in close. Let's not under-estimate the enemy. They all have very high thrust to weight ratios, most have thrust vectoring, high operational ceilings and excellent legs, allowing them more time for afterburner in close.

We largely field F-16's, which are excellent dogfight platforms, but not so much after they get loaded up with external stores, sensors, jamming pods etc. The latter two are incorporated into the airframes of most Russian jets, and the US hangs more of those under the wings. Fuel tanks in particular due to generally shorter range than their Russian counterparts. The same is true of our F-15's and especially legacy Hornets and Super-Hornets.

They're all built to dogfight - and win. Most of our aircraft are set up to excel at the BVR game, and rightfully so. But let's give credit where credit is due: Russian jets are (on average), more capable WVR platforms. Assuming equal pilot skills (and they have some excellent ones), they excel close in. The F-35 will go a long way toward improving our position, but it's too early in its fielding/not yet fully mature.

And as it stands, the Chinese are a very close second and will exceed Russian capabilities within a decade. Large numbers of J-15's, J-16's, J-10B's/C's and F/C-31's present a VERY nasty problem. Particularly if the F/C-31 is capable and built in numbers for the PLAAF.

Let me put it this way: If I'm going to dogfight an enemy exclusively, I'd want what the Russians have fielded (today). 10 years from now, that dynamic may change. But as the old saying goes, you go to war today with what you have - not what you wish you had.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 16:22
by zero-one
well thats why I used Era instead of generation.

Lot of people don't like to compare the F-22/35 with the Su-35 or Mig-29 SMT because they are not in the same generation.
But in war an F-22 wouldn't care if you're a 5th gen, 4+ gen or a 3rd gen. If you're hostile, then you're a target.

So comparing fighters by Era is a more realistic way of comparing fighters as it will be the kinds of fighters that will meet if War breaks out.

Lets say World War 3 broke out in the 70s.
US F-4s, some F-14s F-15s and F-16 would meet against Soviet Mig-21s, 23s and Su-15s
In a dogfight, I'd say the American 70s era fighters have a massive advantage.

World war 3 in the 80s:
F-15s, F-16, F/A-18s
against
Mig-21s, 23, Su-15s and some Mig-29s.
Still a massive advantage for the US

90s:
Teen series
against
Flanker/Fulcrum combo

This is the only era where I think the Russians would have some advantages in a dogfight

2000s to present day
5th gens vs Upgraded Flanker and Fulcrums with external stores

All the advantage will be with the 5th gens even in a gun fight

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 18:03
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


No, F-22 production was stopped at the worst time, when production is getting streamlined. Increase F-22 production also means no need to upgrade F-15C and retire it early which saves money by simplifying logistics. How does cutting F-22 make F-35 viable? F-35 is still needed even if we got 381 F-22s because of strike and other capabilities.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 18:28
by SpudmanWP
President Trump said Tuesday that acting Secretary of Defense Patrick Shanahan is withdrawing as his nominee to take over the Defense Department, saying he has named Secretary of the Army Mark Esper as his new acting secretary of defense.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump- ... for-secdef

Next up, the DoD updates us on the F-15EX.. says they were "just kidding".

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 19:29
by quicksilver
“...maneuverability will always be important on a fighter.”

Agree. So would all fighter guys. They would also tell you that not all maneuverability is necessarily relevant.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 19:30
by vilters
zero-one wrote:well thats why I used Era instead of generation.

All the advantage will be with the 5th gens even in a gun fight


To start a Gun Fight? You need a gun. LOL.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 20:00
by SpudmanWP
Moot point since a vast majority of 5th gen airframes have guns installed with the rest having them as an option.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 20:32
by blain
vilters wrote:
blain wrote:
SpudmanWP wrote:Unrefueled range, but that is one of the least important attributes given the sheer amount of IFR the US has at it's disposal.


And how does it get that range? External fuel tanks and CFTs. Both have a negative impact on performance. The CFTs also has a negative impact on the F-15s ability maneuver.



With increasing SA and BVR identification and kills, the requirement for pulling "G"'s, is becoming less and less and less important. "G's' are for the airshow circuit. => Let the Russians go that route. => They are good at it.


You still need a balance. Mostly, I am addressing the value of the EX. Basically you have a long range interceptor. Where did that requirement come from?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 20:39
by blain
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


No, F-22 production was stopped at the worst time, when production is getting streamlined. Increase F-22 production also means no need to upgrade F-15C and retire it early which saves money by simplifying logistics. How does cutting F-22 make F-35 viable? F-35 is still needed even if we got 381 F-22s because of strike and other capabilities.


Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 18 Jun 2019, 21:34
by vilters
If you know everything there is to know, that answer would be "YES".

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 00:55
by Corsair1963
blain wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


No, F-22 production was stopped at the worst time, when production is getting streamlined. Increase F-22 production also means no need to upgrade F-15C and retire it early which saves money by simplifying logistics. How does cutting F-22 make F-35 viable? F-35 is still needed even if we got 381 F-22s because of strike and other capabilities.


Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?



Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:18
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:
Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?



Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Billions for a single USN ship and for overall US Army "Big 6" programs (estimated 57billion) . 200mil is A LOT for a single fighter aircraft but when taken into context of how large US Defense spending is... it ain't that much. Also wouldn't the price gradually drop with each production lot of a hypothetical reopened F-22 line due to economies of scale and advances in manufacturing techniques?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:38
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:



Flyaway cost was down to about $125 million when they killed production.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 03:45
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Wrong, when there was full rate production F-22 cost less than $150 million. F-22 production restart is dead right now because reopening production means lots of non-recurring costs that wouldn't be there if production was not cut. So get your facts right before smugly throwing around emojis.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 04:52
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Wrong, when there was full rate production F-22 cost less than $150 million. F-22 production restart is dead right now because reopening production means lots of non-recurring costs that wouldn't be there if production was not cut. So get your facts right before smugly throwing around emojis.



Sorry, try again.............the average was $150 Million in 2012! Plus, the cost to maintain the F-22 was ~ $60,000 per flight hour. Hell, in 2019 most think the F-35's 90 Million/$34,000 price is way to high.


F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Lightning II

Date 5/30/2019
By Colin Ritsick

QUOTE: F-22 vs F-35 Cost

The F-22 is expensive. The U.S. Air Force had to stop production early on the F-22 because of soaring project costs. The cost of one aircraft alone is an estimated $334 million which includes research and development (unit cost of $150 million). The Air Force wanted 700 F-22s to be produced but had to cancel production just shy of 200 because they were already over-budget. The flight cost per hour for an F-22 is roughly $60,000.

https://militarymachine.com/f-22-raptor ... htning-ii/


Plus to restart production today would drive the price to well over $200 Million each for ~ 194 additional aircraft. ($206 million to $216 million per aircraft)


https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ayinmil.sm

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 05:38
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Wrong, when there was full rate production F-22 cost less than $150 million. F-22 production restart is dead right now because reopening production means lots of non-recurring costs that wouldn't be there if production was not cut. So get your facts right before smugly throwing around emojis.



Sorry, try again.............the average was $150 Million in 2012! Plus, the cost to maintain the F-22 was ~ $60,000 per flight hour. Hell, in 2019 most think the F-35's 90 Million/$34,000 price is way to high.


F-22 Raptor vs F-35 Lightning II

Date 5/30/2019
By Colin Ritsick

QUOTE: F-22 vs F-35 Cost

The F-22 is expensive. The U.S. Air Force had to stop production early on the F-22 because of soaring project costs. The cost of one aircraft alone is an estimated $334 million which includes research and development (unit cost of $150 million). The Air Force wanted 700 F-22s to be produced but had to cancel production just shy of 200 because they were already over-budget. The flight cost per hour for an F-22 is roughly $60,000.

https://militarymachine.com/f-22-raptor ... htning-ii/


Plus to restart production today would drive the price to well over $200 Million each for ~ 194 additional aircraft. ($206 million to $216 million per aircraft)


https://www.military.com/daily-news/201 ... ayinmil.sm


Wow, your English understanding is terrible. You're comparing the cost of F-22 when restarting production today, not when F-22 production was ongoing in 2009. Do you not see the difference? Of course restarting F-22 production today is going to cost more than $200 million per aircraft, because the production line is gone so you need non-recurring start up cost. If F-22 production wasn't cut in 2009 then unit cost is under $150 million.

And this has nothing to do with your argument of F-22 taking money away from F-35. If all 381 F-22s were built then F-15C can be retired to save money because that's one less aircraft type to support which saves logistics. Not to mention they're for different roles, F-35 is better for strike and is overall less capable in air to air, and F-22 is replacing F-15C which is for air to air.

Also, you got yourself banned from Key Pubs, which is quite an accomplishment. :roll:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 06:35
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
Wow, your English understanding is terrible. You're comparing the cost of F-22 when restarting production today, not when F-22 production was ongoing in 2009. Do you not see the difference? Of course restarting F-22 production today is going to cost more than $200 million per aircraft, because the production line is gone so you need non-recurring start up cost. If F-22 production wasn't cut in 2009 then unit cost is under $150 million.

And this has nothing to do with your argument of F-22 taking money away from F-35. If all 381 F-22s were built then F-15C can be retired to save money because that's one less aircraft type to support which saves logistics. Not to mention they're for different roles, F-35 is better for strike and is overall less capable in air to air, and F-22 is replacing F-15C which is for air to air.

Also, you got yourself banned from Key Pubs, which is quite an accomplishment. :roll:



The "original" quote was
"Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes)."


Sorry, to get additional F-22's you would have to restart production. Surely, not even a hard concept for you to understand??? The quote didn't say anything about continuing production back in 2009.....Yet, maybe that was the authors intent??? Yet, if so he wasn't clear with his remarks....

Nonetheless, today according to the Rand Report for the US Government. The cost of restarting F-22 Production would be ~$206 - $216 Million per aircraft for an order of 194. Which, is the only option today.

Finally, your sarcasm was hardly called for. If, you wanted to express your opinion. I was happy to hear it.

BTW I wasn't "banned" from Key Publishing! I found it full of "children" that had very little real knowledge of the subject matter. So, I left on my own accord.....

Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 07:31
by zero-one
Guys calm down.
I noticed that the admin has been locking down a lot of threads lately that has gone too far off topic.
I know I share some of the blame for that. So lets try to stay on track this time.

As much as I love to talk about restarting the Raptor line, which I admit is a wonderful pipe dream, Its going down the road of off topicness. lets stay the course shall we

vilters wrote:
To start a Gun Fight? You need a gun. LOL.


Fortunately all 5th gens have guns

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 08:50
by disconnectedradical
YOUR original quote is this.

Corsair1963 wrote:As for creasing F-22 Production. That likely was the best outcome for the US Military and Western Alliance in the long term. Because if the US funded more F-22's. That very likely would have cut into the F-35 Program. Which, could have pushed up the price of the latter. Making the program unaffordable or at least far more expensive. (sound familiar)

In short canceling the F-22 made the F-35 "viable". Which, will allow us to produce it today in large numbers for us and our allies.


So you're saying that ending F-22 production is the best outcome. Ending production is EXACTLY why you now have the non-recurring costs for restarting production, which is why F-22 restart will cost more than $200 million unit cost per aircraft and pretty much dead. If production wasn't stopped in 2009, the unit cost was under $150 million. It still cost more than F-35, but if all 381 F-22s were built then you save money by retiring air to air F-15C for early and simplifying logistics. And how does ending F-22 make F-35 "viable"? If there was 381 F-22s, there still needs to be F-35 for strike role and to replace all the F-16s.

You want to talk about how ending F-22 production was right because it was costing $200 million unit cost per aircraft, when ending production is HOW you end up with $200 million unit cost because of non-recurring production restart cost. Do you not see your circular logic?

Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


Hilarious, it's almost like your world is so F-35 centric that your arguments are not taken seriously.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 10:39
by Corsair1963
disconnectedradical wrote:
So you're saying that ending F-22 production is the best outcome. Ending production is EXACTLY why you now have the non-recurring costs for restarting production, which is why F-22 restart will cost more than $200 million unit cost per aircraft and pretty much dead. If production wasn't stopped in 2009, the unit cost was under $150 million. It still cost more than F-35, but if all 381 F-22s were built then you save money by retiring air to air F-15C for early and simplifying logistics. And how does ending F-22 make F-35 "viable"? If there was 381 F-22s, there still needs to be F-35 for strike role and to replace all the F-16s.

You want to talk about how ending F-22 production was right because it was costing $200 million unit cost per aircraft, when ending production is HOW you end up with $200 million unit cost because of non-recurring production restart cost. Do you not see your circular logic?

Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


Hilarious, it's almost like your world is so F-35 centric that your arguments are not taken seriously.



Under the budget conditions of the time and the options yes. I remember the period well and spoke to a number of people from Congress about the issue at the time. Including the late Senator John McCain. (more than once) So, spare me what you think you know....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 13:58
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
So you're saying that ending F-22 production is the best outcome. Ending production is EXACTLY why you now have the non-recurring costs for restarting production, which is why F-22 restart will cost more than $200 million unit cost per aircraft and pretty much dead. If production wasn't stopped in 2009, the unit cost was under $150 million. It still cost more than F-35, but if all 381 F-22s were built then you save money by retiring air to air F-15C for early and simplifying logistics. And how does ending F-22 make F-35 "viable"? If there was 381 F-22s, there still needs to be F-35 for strike role and to replace all the F-16s.

You want to talk about how ending F-22 production was right because it was costing $200 million unit cost per aircraft, when ending production is HOW you end up with $200 million unit cost because of non-recurring production restart cost. Do you not see your circular logic?

Corsair1963 wrote:Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


Hilarious, it's almost like your world is so F-35 centric that your arguments are not taken seriously.



Under the budget conditions of the time and the options yes. I remember the period well and spoke to a number of people from Congress about the issue at the time. Including the late Senator John McCain. (more than once) So, spare me what you think you know....



Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 19:50
by blain
charlielima223 wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:
Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes). For some reasons there was a coalition that wanted to kill the F-22. There was discussion of foreign sales to Australia and Japan to keep the production line going, but Democrats in Congress passed an amendment to ban foreign sales. Do you think they were really concerned with securing American technology from the Japanese and the Australians?



Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:


Billions for a single USN ship and for overall US Army "Big 6" programs (estimated 57billion) . 200mil is A LOT for a single fighter aircraft but when taken into context of how large US Defense spending is... it ain't that much. Also wouldn't the price gradually drop with each production lot of a hypothetical reopened F-22 line due to economies of scale and advances in manufacturing techniques?


They are paying $200 million for Marine One. They had no problem paying that for the C-17A. They kept adding aircraft at the end. CRAF could have supplemented airlifters in a crisis. Where is the backstop for F-22. Combat coded aircraft are a drop in the bucket. You might be able to deploy a wing in a major war. If you needed more you would have to strip the OCA squadrons and leave the other areas bare.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 19:58
by blain
Corsair1963 wrote:
disconnectedradical wrote:
Wow, your English understanding is terrible. You're comparing the cost of F-22 when restarting production today, not when F-22 production was ongoing in 2009. Do you not see the difference? Of course restarting F-22 production today is going to cost more than $200 million per aircraft, because the production line is gone so you need non-recurring start up cost. If F-22 production wasn't cut in 2009 then unit cost is under $150 million.

And this has nothing to do with your argument of F-22 taking money away from F-35. If all 381 F-22s were built then F-15C can be retired to save money because that's one less aircraft type to support which saves logistics. Not to mention they're for different roles, F-35 is better for strike and is overall less capable in air to air, and F-22 is replacing F-15C which is for air to air.

Also, you got yourself banned from Key Pubs, which is quite an accomplishment. :roll:


The "original" quote was
"Additional F-22s would have been a drop in the bucket (as far as cost goes)."


Sorry, to get additional F-22's you would have to restart production. Surely, not even a hard concept for you to understand??? The quote didn't say anything about continuing production back in 2009.....Yet, maybe that was the authors intent??? Yet, if so he wasn't clear with his remarks....

Nonetheless, today according to the Rand Report for the US Government. The cost of restarting F-22 Production would be ~$206 - $216 Million per aircraft for an order of 194. Which, is the only option today.

Finally, your sarcasm was hardly called for. If, you wanted to express your opinion. I was happy to hear it.

BTW I wasn't "banned" from Key Publishing! I found it full of "children" that had very little real knowledge of the subject matter. So, I left on my own accord.....

Clearly, you must be a member. Which, speaks volumes..... :wink:


I said "would have" not will be. The development cost was already paid for. The only cost was the fly away cost. If they produced the aircraft in efficient numbers they could have brought the fly away cost down further. Foreign sales to Japan and Australia also would have helped to reduce cost and keep the production line warm for when people figured out Gates was an idiot.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 20:17
by blain
First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 22:51
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Absurd.....a drop in the bucket at near $200 Million each! :doh:



Flyaway cost was down to about $125 million when they killed production.



No it was $133 Million and that was a decade or more ago....

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 23:04
by Corsair1963
blain wrote:First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.




LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 19 Jun 2019, 23:15
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 00:32
by disconnectedradical
Corsair1963 wrote:LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


So cutting F-22 production is right just because John McCain supports that? Appeal to authority much? What does John McCain’s military service, which is no doubt exemplary, have to do with anything to do with making qualified decision on USAF fighter force? His service doesn’t make him immune to mistakes. You can be the best soldier and have the Medal of Honor but that doesn’t make you qualified on air power, especially since McCain is from totally different combat generation.

And none of this at all support your statement of how cutting F-22 makes F-35 “viable”. F-35 still happens and get bought in large numbers even if USAF got 381 F-22s they wanted. And some of F-35’s cost problems is the program’s own fault, should other programs be sacrificed to make up for that?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:25
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:


Do I need to? Really? Have you ever actually heard what he had to say about the F-35? Do you think he was accurate?

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:41
by charlielima223
Corsair1963 wrote:

LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

Image


There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


God rest his soul

Don't get me wrong, that is an impressive salad bar but that doesn't mean that he is a expert in all things military...


As others have pointed out, he is a man from another area and his views and opinions are not reflective on current trends and tactics. I'm not going to appeal to a Special Forces Operator on aspects of air combat nor will I appeal to a fighter pilot from the 60s about modern air combat.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:51
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Had nothing to do with "budget constraints". Gates predicted it would be 20 years before anybody else rolled out a stealth fighter, and fired anybody who disagreed. It was hilariously ironic only a couple years later when China rolled out the J-20 during a state visit by Gates.

As for name-dropping, nobody cares who you interviewed. Most of Congress wouldn't know their a$$ from a hole in the ground when it comes to today's fighter aircraft. (Including McCain.)


You spoke to John McCain or others directly involved in the process at the time??? Please, enlighten us.... :wink:


Do I need to? Really? Have you ever actually heard what he had to say about the F-35? Do you think he was accurate?


I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 01:54
by Corsair1963
charlielima223 wrote:

There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


God rest his soul

Don't get me wrong, that is an impressive salad bar but that doesn't mean that he is a expert in all things military...


As others have pointed out, he is a man from another area and his views and opinions are not reflective on current trends and tactics. I'm not going to appeal to a Special Forces Operator on aspects of air combat nor will I appeal to a fighter pilot from the 60s about modern air combat.[/quote]

ABSURD.........John McCain was an Naval Aviator and was closely involved with all of the issues and had direct classified access. Nobody here could come remotely close to that.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 03:08
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 05:07
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)


That is your opinion...... :|

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:06
by madrat
You cannot have thin skin in the business of arms making. You let results speak.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 11:58
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:
sferrin wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:I did speak about the John McCain about the F-35 a couple of times. As I was often unhappy of his criticism of the JSF Program. Yet, you have to understand the man. (many don't) As he was out spoken and critical. In order to get the best product and price for the US Taxpayer. You don't do that often with praise.....You think Lt. Gen. Chris Bogdan (former JPO F-35) was easy on Lockheed Martin, Pratt & Whitney, and the other F-35 Suppliers. That doesn't mean they didn't support the F-35 and are happy with the end product.

As for the F-22 John McCain and Robert Gates know far more about the F-22 and what lead to it's cancelation. Than anybody here......that I know.


It's one thing to be demanding. Quite another to spout uninformed bull$hit. (He's not alone there. Trump needs to lay off EMALS for example.)


That is your opinion...... :|


Really?

"John McCain slammed the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter's troubled history Tuesday, saying it "has been both a scandal and a tragedy with respect to cost, schedule and performance."

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 20:36
by blain
Corsair1963 wrote:
blain wrote:First, McCain was not the sharpest tool in the shed. Gates was a Soviet analyst at the CIA - where he no doubt had a track record of being wrong about a lot of things. I just finished reading a book about the CIA program to help Solidarity in Poland. Gates recommended against it. Fortunately Bill Casey and Ronald Reagan didn't listen to him.

Is anyone shocked Gates was wrong about China? Maybe the intel was wrong, but he of all people should have been able to do his own analysis.




LOL

John McCain was a ranking member and then Chairmen of the US Senate Armed Services Committee. In addition he was Naval Academy graduate and USN Fighter Pilot. He has numerous military decorations and awards include the Silver Star, two Legion of Merits, Distinguished Flying Cross, three Bronze Star Medals, two Purple Hearts, two Navy and Marine Corps Commendation Medals, and the Prisoner of War Medal.

JMMX.jpg



There is "no one here" more qualified on the subject than John McCain. :doh:


Very few doubt his bravery or his commitment to service. I never indicated that. But his naval academy rank is awful. If his dad was a plumber would he have been booted? He topped out as a CO of a training squadron. Odd for someone who the son and grandson of two prominent admirals. Then we have his involvement in the Keating Five scandal. And his erratic behavior as a Senator and presidential candidate. Could be that why his Navy career ended?

I'm sure he was a joy to work for.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 18:04
by mixelflick
The whole F-22 fiasco was embarrassing for our nation, and I hope the "powers that be" learned some lessons..

We built (hands down) the most fearsome air superiority fighter in existence. We were 30 years ahead of the threat with just the PROTOTYPES. When we had the opportunity to buy meaningful numbers (at a much lower price), we balked. The buck has to stop with someone, and that's Secretary Gates IMO. He made a horrible decision, which has hamstrung our air superiority fleet in no small fashion.

Right down to the long term storage of tooling shenanigans, we f'd it up bad. And I have to believe those in Russia and China breathed a sigh of relief and still get a good laugh about it. Yes, the F-35 is a great fighter too and should neutralize the threat, but the game will be a lot closer in the end vs. the blowout it should have been.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 18:41
by quicksilver
Well...re: that ‘lost a 30 year advantage’ idea —

The ATF selection went to Lockheed in April 1991. By my math, 2021 would be 30 years and the rest of the planet has yet to field any operational equivalents. Meanwhile, the boys in blue have pcap underway and who knows what else behind the curtain somewhere.

Lotsa arguments for/against F-22 decision that will likely go for the duration of our time on the planet. But, the decision to accept some strategic risk by cutting the buy, at least to this point, has not proven to be flawed.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 21 Jun 2019, 19:06
by marsavian
What single air force is going to survive for long if faced by about 150 Raptors anyway ? The point is the politics arrayed against it was strong, Obama, Gates, McCain etc and the Russian and Chinese militaries were quiet at the time, before Ukraine, before SCS island building so it was just bad timing and anyway the F-35 makes the F-22 deficient in certain areas like IR sensors which the Su-57/J-20 are not lacking. Time to let the F-22 production run story RIP and look forward to a much more modern PCA.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 22 Jun 2019, 07:33
by disconnectedradical
When talking about making more F-22s, the point is that we should have continued producing F-22s back in 2009 when it was still in production. Obviously making more F-22s NOW is a bad idea since production line is gone and all the non-recurring cost to restart is huge and not worth it and we’re better off focusing on PCA. I admit back then I didn’t see ending F-22 production as a mistake, but now in hindsight I do, since upfront cost can be made up for by retiring F-15C early and simplifying logistics. Also, when arguing F-22 is not used in Iraq, it is replacing F-15C which isn’t used in Iraq either.

Some of the problems like F-15C life running out and needing upgrades and life extensions is result of F-22 buy cut short. Maybe even the whole F-15EX nonsense can be avoided if all 381 F-22s were made.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 19:20
by blain
disconnectedradical wrote:When talking about making more F-22s, the point is that we should have continued producing F-22s back in 2009 when it was still in production. Obviously making more F-22s NOW is a bad idea since production line is gone and all the non-recurring cost to restart is huge and not worth it and we’re better off focusing on PCA. I admit back then I didn’t see ending F-22 production as a mistake, but now in hindsight I do, since upfront cost can be made up for by retiring F-15C early and simplifying logistics. Also, when arguing F-22 is not used in Iraq, it is replacing F-15C which isn’t used in Iraq either.

Some of the problems like F-15C life running out and needing upgrades and life extensions is result of F-22 buy cut short. Maybe even the whole F-15EX nonsense can be avoided if all 381 F-22s were made.


R & D cost was already paid for. Such a waste to spend billions to develop a fighter and then truncate the program. They did the same thing to the B-2. It was incredibly stupid and irresponsible of Gates to not find money in the budget to keep production going. They kept producing C-17s with a similar fly away cost. And also allowed foreign AFs to purchase aircraft to keep the line going. You would think that a career intelligence analyst of all people would have anticipated the growing threat of China and the implications to the force structure of purchasing such a small lot of air superiority fighters.

Hopefully they have learned their lesson and will not truncate the F-35. The nation made a huge investment in the fighter. It would be a waste to not have a return in that investment.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:18
by vilters
I respectfully disagree.

When the F-22 came around, the cold war was over. There simply where no enemies for such an aircraft.
The Ruskies stuck in all their S-27 variations, and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 where all more then capable enough to handle the Mig-29 variants.

The Chinese had other cats to take care off. First and most important to get the economy going with an increasing population. War? The Chinese where not thinking about war, not even remotely.

Stopping the F-22 got more resources into the better aircraft => the F-35.

So many years later? Where are we?

Well, the Ruskie Su failure is no where to be seen, and the Chinese are just starting, but none is close, and won't be for at least the next decade.

For the bomber squad. Hello, what or who are you gonna bomb?
To build a bomber you need targets.

And with an attack aircraft like the F-35, the bomber requirement is where exactly?

Well, you could bomb Antarctica and make the water levels go up.
Or bomb a hole in the earth, and make the water levels go down. LOL.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:24
by vilters
Ach, the F-22 and B2 where cold war idea's.

The same cold war the Tornado, Rafale and Tiffy where build for.

That is also the reason why Europe is not interested any more in investing gazillion dollars in the military.

If Trump wants to police the world?
Let him buy a colt 45 himself and do the Job himself.

He can not,
he needs both hands to twitter. LOL.
There is more brain in a 5 year old.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 00:25
by sferrin
vilters wrote:I respectfully disagree.

When the F-22 came around, the cold war was over. There simply where no enemies for such an aircraft.
The Ruskies stuck in all their S-27 variations, and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 where all more then capable enough to handle the Mig-29 variants.

The Chinese had other cats to take care off. First and most important to get the economy going with an increasing population. War? The Chinese where not thinking about war, not even remotely.

Stopping the F-22 got more resources into the better aircraft => the F-35.


By the time the F-22 first flew the Cold War was over. By the time they decided to cancel it though the world had changed drastically. PAK-FA was well under development as was the J-20 (as later events proved). Ending production of the F-22 was f--king retarded, as many higher ups in the USAF indicated at the time- and were fired for expressing their opinion.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 02:19
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
vilters wrote:I respectfully disagree.

When the F-22 came around, the cold war was over. There simply where no enemies for such an aircraft.
The Ruskies stuck in all their S-27 variations, and the F-16, F-15 and F-18 where all more then capable enough to handle the Mig-29 variants.

The Chinese had other cats to take care off. First and most important to get the economy going with an increasing population. War? The Chinese where not thinking about war, not even remotely.

Stopping the F-22 got more resources into the better aircraft => the F-35.


By the time the F-22 first flew the Cold War was over. By the time they decided to cancel it though the world had changed drastically. PAK-FA was well under development as was the J-20 (as later events proved). Ending production of the F-22 was f--king retarded, as many higher ups in the USAF indicated at the time- and were fired for expressing their opinion.


Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.

Those are easily supportable facts...

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 14:30
by mixelflick
It was flat out sad to watch McCain defend the A-10, when the USAF was right there with data showing how most CAS was done by B-1B's, F-16's, Strike Eagles etc..

I'm not sure if he really believed what he was saying or his faculties were failing, but it was a pathetic moment. The poor woman trying to explain these things to him was browbeaten into submission. It probably is a good idea to have a few A-10's around for low intensity conflicts, but McCain wouldn't have even entertained that.

His hatred for the F-35 was palpable, as he was seemingly unable to discern teething problems all new weapons systems go through from what an effective warplane it has matured into. I wonder what he'd think today of what the pilots say, the 20-1 kill ratio's coming back from Red Flag, etc..

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 15:55
by SpudmanWP
If it's a low-intensity conflict, then a "Light Attack" turboprop is just as good and a heck of a lot less expensive.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 18:09
by sferrin
Corsair1963 wrote:Weak argument as the F-35 is much more versatile and cheaper to both own and operate. In addition it has "no" serious threat within the foreseeable future.


Well that's flat out wrong. Both the J-20 and Su-57 could be threats within the foreseeable future. So could the J-31 for that matter.

Corsair1963 wrote:Those are easily supportable facts...


I don't think that means what you think it does.

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 01:25
by weasel1962
SpudmanWP wrote:If it's a low-intensity conflict, then a "Light Attack" turboprop is just as good and a heck of a lot less expensive.


Helo!

Can't resist the Endgame paraphrase: I helo you 3000 (which is the number of H-60 + AH64s).

Re: F-15X or F-15SE, F-35, F-22 as air fighter

Unread postPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 02:27
by Corsair1963
sferrin wrote:
Well that's flat out wrong. Both the J-20 and Su-57 could be threats within the foreseeable future. So could the J-31 for that matter.


Highly unlikely as the US has decades of experience developing and fielding both Stealth Fighters and Bombers. While, China and Russia have very little. Honestly, I've seen nothing to suggest either have closed the gap significantly enough. In order to pose a serious challenge...

I don't want to speak for the majority here. Yet, I doubt very few would disagree with that assessment. :|


I don't think that means what you think it does.


No comment....... :roll: