F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
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marauder2048

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 04:02

SpudmanWP wrote:Another option is: Were the services told that they only had $X to spend in the FY2020 budget, they then submitted the request for 78 (begrudgingly less than last year's plan), and now they are being told "hey, we have some extra money over here so... F-15X"?

This would "technically" meant that the F-15X did not affect the F-35, but it definitely violates the spirit of the whole thing.


Weren't the services preparing two budget proposals for FY20 that were associated with two different top lines?

Followed by the mid-December bump. So who knows to which submission Wilson was referring.
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weasel1962

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 04:08

Budget posturing? The next lot after lot 14 (FY 2020) will be block buys.
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marauder2048

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 04:21

Slow Tony updated his article:

The Air Force still plans to buy all 48 jets in fiscal 2020 that it had originally sought, according to a person
familiar with the budget who asked not to be identified. That means the quantity sought by
the Navy or Marine Corps was cut.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 05:29

marauder2048 wrote:Slow Tony updated his article:

The Air Force still plans to buy all 48 jets in fiscal 2020 that it had originally sought, according to a person
familiar with the budget who asked not to be identified. That means the quantity sought by
the Navy or Marine Corps was cut.


USN can't afford to cut a single F-35C. If, it is replace two squadrons per CVW in the coming decade. So, that must mean the USMC will loose the "6" F-35's (B)?
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madrat

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 13:27

Not cut, just delayed purchases.
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mixelflick

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 15:10

madrat wrote:I think it would make more sense to stand down F-15E from the attack roles and incorporate them into a secondary A2A role, with F-35A tasked to supplement F-22A in Air Dominance. F-15X lacks situational awareness to truly fill capability gaps. Once F-35A numbers ramp up the F-15E role diminishes.


THIS!!!
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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 15:17

mixelflick wrote:
madrat wrote:I think it would make more sense to stand down F-15E from the attack roles and incorporate them into a secondary A2A role, with F-35A tasked to supplement F-22A in Air Dominance. F-15X lacks situational awareness to truly fill capability gaps. Once F-35A numbers ramp up the F-15E role diminishes.


THIS!!!


So sorry, but allow me to not agree here.

Durng the first days of war, you need F-22 and F-35 for the "air clean up".

Secondary; an F-15E is primary an attack aircraft and far less an A2A aircraft. (We are talking "E" model here, right?)

In the first days of a conlict, I see cruise missiles and F-15E going in, heavy, fast and low for A2G, with F-22 and F-35 as top cover.

You need a "fighter style heavy bomb truck" the first days.
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crosshairs

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 15:34

vilters wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
madrat wrote:I think it would make more sense to stand down F-15E from the attack roles and incorporate them into a secondary A2A role, with F-35A tasked to supplement F-22A in Air Dominance. F-15X lacks situational awareness to truly fill capability gaps. Once F-35A numbers ramp up the F-15E role diminishes.


THIS!!!


So sorry, but allow me to not agree here.

Durng the first days of war, you need F-22 and F-35 for the "air clean up".

Secondary; an F-15E is primary an attack aircraft and far less an A2A aircraft. (We are talking "E" model here, right?)

In the first days of a conlict, I see cruise missiles and F-15E going in, heavy, fast and low for A2G, with F-22 and F-35 as top cover.

You need a "fighter style heavy bomb truck" the first days.


Definitely not.

First days of war, what is needed is LO platforms for SEAD/DEAD and destruction of command and control. After air defenses are neutralized it would be safer to bring in nonstealthy assets for mass indiscriminate bombing of troops and armor and artillery.

Mud hens repurposed as A2A makes all the sense in the world. They have lots of life left in them and could take over for the old creaky C/D fleet.
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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 15:47

The whole point of the F-15X is the arsenal aspect. Extra pylons, better CONNECTIVITY with F-35s, things the E will never have
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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 17:58

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The whole point of the F-15X is the arsenal aspect. Extra pylons, better CONNECTIVITY with F-35s, things the E will never have


All the connectivity in the planet still won't reduce its radar cross section or make it more survivable than any other 4th gen. the X just isn't a first day of war aircraft. Maybe it will get some data from the F-35 s that are in theater to minimize the risks posed by air defenses, but air defenses these days covers huge swaths of area, so that's not viable to make the X a survivable first days of war aircraft.

After the F-35 destroys air defenses, then you can send in the X, but by then all that whiz bang connectivity isn't much use as the X is going after things that require large amounts and or heavy ordinance, ie bunkers and fixed fortifications and armor. the E is capable of that job today.

The case for the X just isn't there. It's a less survivable platform than aircraft we build today. It's less capable. It may or may not be less expensive, and that is another discussion, but how expensive is it to lose an aircraft? Dare I say it is cheaper to buy the more expensive (if it's true the F-35 costs more) aircraft because our side will not lose as many.
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marauder2048

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 18:18

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:The whole point of the F-15X is the arsenal aspect. Extra pylons, better CONNECTIVITY with F-35s, things the E will never have


What's the basis for claim of the connectivity advantage over the E model?
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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 18:45

marauder2048 wrote:What's the basis for claim of the connectivity advantage over the E model?

effectively the only thing the X will have in common with the E is the OML. All the electronics (Radar, ECM, etc) are new. The cockpit displays are new. Everything is new.

I 110% agree that the purchase of the X is foolish and the money should be spent on F-35s, but I disagree that the E can do anything the X can.

The X is the 18 AMRAAM plane, it can get targeting data from forward F-35s. It will have a big RCS, but it will be protected by F-35s and itself. Remember the "generate a wormhole" statements?
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marauder2048

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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 19:05

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:What's the basis for claim of the connectivity advantage over the E model?

effectively the only thing the X will have in common with the E is the OML. All the electronics (Radar, ECM, etc) are new. The cockpit displays are new. Everything is new.

I 110% agree that the purchase of the X is foolish and the money should be spent on F-35s, but I disagree that the E can do anything the X can.

The X is the 18 AMRAAM plane, it can get targeting data from forward F-35s. It will have a big RCS, but it will be protected by F-35s and itself. Remember the "generate a wormhole" statements?


What's the basis of the claim for improved connectivity? The radar has no advantage over the existing F-15 AESAs (which the US bought for the entire F-15C and F-15E fleet). And It won't have EPAWSS (since it doesn't yet exist) and the AFA claims that the AF was looking for existing F-15 customers to get out of the way so the AF could take early delivery.

The F-35s will need to reveal their position to communicate and Link-16 will be the first casualty against a high-end opponent. And there's no evidence that the AF has acquired the numberof the gateway pods to make the above CONOPS feasible.

The F-15X has the worst thermal and radar signature of practically any fighter currently being produced.
Detailing high-end assets to protect it is a burden that was part of the rationale for the decision to retire JSTARS.
(which was a not so subtle shot by Deptula & co at the current ACC chief).
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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 19:29

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
marauder2048 wrote:What's the basis for claim of the connectivity advantage over the E model?

effectively the only thing the X will have in common with the E is the OML. All the electronics (Radar, ECM, etc) are new. The cockpit displays are new. Everything is new.

I 110% agree that the purchase of the X is foolish and the money should be spent on F-35s, but I disagree that the E can do anything the X can.

The X is the 18 AMRAAM plane, it can get targeting data from forward F-35s. It will have a big RCS, but it will be protected by F-35s and itself. Remember the "generate a wormhole" statements?



The Es are getting APG-82, EPAWWS, new computers, new displays, etc.... too. The main difference is that the X has fly by wire, and the outer wing stations.
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Unread post05 Mar 2019, 19:55

wrightwing wrote:The Es are getting APG-82, EPAWWS, new computers, new displays, etc.... too.


And I'm equally dubious about the E's survivability. Some of these upgrades
are also motivated by diminishing manufacturing sources and readiness
metrics.

wrightwing wrote:The main difference is that the X has fly by wire, and the outer wing stations.


Which is hilarious given the E-wing'ing of the F-15C/D RFI/Q&A stated explicitly that the Air Force was not
interested in FBW or the activation of the outer wing stations.

But If the F-15X shows up festooned with IFDL and MADL antennae I'll owe you an adult beverage of your choice.
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