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Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 09:33
by popcorn
SpudmanWP wrote:Nobody needs to divert anything. There is plenty of growth room in the production schedule for ramping up orders for ANY customer.

Agreed.. just addressing the preceding post.

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 14:49
by mixelflick
geforcerfx wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
If you think about it, the only competitive advantage Boeing has with the Pentagon is... delivering aircraft on time and under budget.

cough...KC-46...cough


OK OK.. But I was thinking about fighters aka the SH and Super Duper. And if it comes to pass, the F-15X. Boeing could role into PCA with two fighters that have been delivered on time and within or under budget.

LM on the other hand would have the F-35's history. That history can be looked at one of two ways..

1.) The massive cost over runs, behind schedule/adversarial relationship with the USAF early on... OR;
2.) The F-35 that's rapidly approaching $80 million/copy, taking names and kicking a$$ at Red Flag, Green Flag etc

If you're the USAF, who'd you rather do business with??

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 15:57
by popcorn
mixelflick wrote:
If you're the USAF, who'd you rather do business with??

The only company on the planet to actually have built 2 outstanding 5gen jet's?

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 22:01
by wrightwing
mixelflick wrote:
geforcerfx wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
If you think about it, the only competitive advantage Boeing has with the Pentagon is... delivering aircraft on time and under budget.

cough...KC-46...cough


OK OK.. But I was thinking about fighters aka the SH and Super Duper. And if it comes to pass, the F-15X. Boeing could role into PCA with two fighters that have been delivered on time and within or under budget.

LM on the other hand would have the F-35's history. That history can be looked at one of two ways..

1.) The massive cost over runs, behind schedule/adversarial relationship with the USAF early on... OR;
2.) The F-35 that's rapidly approaching $80 million/copy, taking names and kicking a$$ at Red Flag, Green Flag etc

If you're the USAF, who'd you rather do business with??

Here's a key difference. The PCA isn't going to come in CTOL, STOVL, and CATOBAR variants. Had there only been a single F-35 variant, we likely wouldn't have seen the massive cost overruns/schedule shifts.

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 23:19
by quicksilver

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 02:27
by weasel1962
One of the biggest reasons for F-35 schedule delays was software coding, particularly on sensor fusion. 24 million lines of codes. This delayed flight tests and resulted in re-tests. Would apply regardless of version.

There's only 1 F-15C sqn in England (493), the other 2 are F-15Es. Noted 2 F-35A squadrons are already confirmed for Lakenheath. I suspect one or both E sqns may rotate back to CONUS to replace C sqn(s).

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 04:52
by Corsair1963
weasel1962 wrote:One of the biggest reasons for F-35 schedule delays was software coding, particularly on sensor fusion. 24 million lines of codes. This delayed flight tests and resulted in re-tests. Would apply regardless of version.

There's only 1 F-15C sqn in England (493), the other 2 are F-15Es. Noted 2 F-35A squadrons are already confirmed for Lakenheath. I suspect one or both E sqns may rotate back to CONUS to replace C sqn(s).



To be replaced by former F-16C Squadrons that converted to the F-35A???

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 15:42
by mixelflick
popcorn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
If you're the USAF, who'd you rather do business with??

The only company on the planet to actually have built 2 outstanding 5gen jet's?


OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget. That's significant, as is the language surrounding this buy (will not, over anyone's dead body eat into F-35 orders). Plus, it's pretty clear stealth isn't part of any requirement given the F-15X's role.

So are we looking at two fighter manufacturers going forward? One for stealth aircraft, and the other for non-stealth aircraft? Boeing has the SH, ASH, they're building advanced F-15's now along with the KC-46.

Lockheed is going great guns with the F-35, involved with F-22 upgrades and likely the lead contender for PCA (and F/A-XX, assuming the Navy can afford it).

Sounds like USAF (and USN) is coming to terms with a mixed 4th/5th gen force, and will field such a fleet for a long, long time. Lockheed is unlikely to go back to building non-stealth birds, so they're status in the all stealth club is pretty much a lock. How much longer can Boeing keep selling non stealth fighters though?

Wouldn't want to be on the defense side of the shop as the decades pass...

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 17:20
by crosshairs
mixelflick wrote:
popcorn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
If you're the USAF, who'd you rather do business with??

The only company on the planet to actually have built 2 outstanding 5gen jet's?


OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget. That's significant, as is the language surrounding this buy (will not, over anyone's dead body eat into F-35 orders). Plus, it's pretty clear stealth isn't part of any requirement given the F-15X's role.

So are we looking at two fighter manufacturers going forward? One for stealth aircraft, and the other for non-stealth aircraft? Boeing has the SH, ASH, they're building advanced F-15's now along with the KC-46.

Lockheed is going great guns with the F-35, involved with F-22 upgrades and likely the lead contender for PCA (and F/A-XX, assuming the Navy can afford it).

Sounds like USAF (and USN) is coming to terms with a mixed 4th/5th gen force, and will field such a fleet for a long, long time. Lockheed is unlikely to go back to building non-stealth birds, so they're status in the all stealth club is pretty much a lock. How much longer can Boeing keep selling non stealth fighters though?

Wouldn't want to be on the defense side of the shop as the decades pass...


I think you are wrong to leave Northrop-Grumman out of the fighter business.

It was Northrop that designed the YF-17 that is now the F/A-18. Northrop designed a stealthier and faster ATF than Lockheed. Northrop designed a stealthier bomber than Lockheed in the ATB competition. Northrop had a better proposal for the B-21 than anyone else. If there were a running bet, I would bet on Northrop for PCA or F/A-XX.

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 17:48
by sprstdlyscottsmn
mixelflick wrote:OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget.

That the acting SecDef is a Boeing exec speaks volumes.

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 18:18
by crosshairs
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget.

That the acting SecDef is a Boeing exec speaks volumes.


Mattis was also in favor of the F-15X. A lot of people were in on the decision. Honestly I think this is a strategic decision to keep more the Lockheed as the sole producer of fighters.

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 18 Feb 2019, 19:12
by SpudmanWP
Honestly I think this is a strategic decision to keep more the Lockheed as the sole producer of fighters.

Then Boeing might want to think about actually wining a competition instead of paying lobbyists.

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2019, 00:40
by Corsair1963
crosshairs wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget.

That the acting SecDef is a Boeing exec speaks volumes.


Mattis was also in favor of the F-15X. A lot of people were in on the decision. Honestly I think this is a strategic decision to keep more the Lockheed as the sole producer of fighters.



I have a very hard time believing Mattis was in favor of the F-15X! Do you have a source???

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2019, 00:42
by Corsair1963
mixelflick wrote:
popcorn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:
If you're the USAF, who'd you rather do business with??

The only company on the planet to actually have built 2 outstanding 5gen jet's?


OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget. That's significant, as is the language surrounding this buy (will not, over anyone's dead body eat into F-35 orders). Plus, it's pretty clear stealth isn't part of any requirement given the F-15X's role.

So are we looking at two fighter manufacturers going forward? One for stealth aircraft, and the other for non-stealth aircraft? Boeing has the SH, ASH, they're building advanced F-15's now along with the KC-46.

Lockheed is going great guns with the F-35, involved with F-22 upgrades and likely the lead contender for PCA (and F/A-XX, assuming the Navy can afford it).

Sounds like USAF (and USN) is coming to terms with a mixed 4th/5th gen force, and will field such a fleet for a long, long time. Lockheed is unlikely to go back to building non-stealth birds, so they're status in the all stealth club is pretty much a lock. How much longer can Boeing keep selling non stealth fighters though?

Wouldn't want to be on the defense side of the shop as the decades pass...



They haven't released the USAF Budget yet..... :?

Re: F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Unread postPosted: 19 Feb 2019, 00:43
by Corsair1963
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
mixelflick wrote:OK... then why this USAF interest in the F-15X?

Remember, this wasn't some internal project pitched by Boeing. Or it might have been at one time but... the USAF is specifically requesting it in their budget.

That the acting SecDef is a Boeing exec speaks volumes.



Something the Democratic Leadership will watch very closely!