F-15X: USAF Seems Interested

Military aircraft - Post cold war aircraft, including for example B-2, Gripen, F-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale, and Typhoon.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

madrat

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2220
  • Joined: 03 Mar 2010, 03:12

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 13:21

In what scenario does an F-15C face an Su-35S without support from allied and stealth assets?

Seems silly to play yesterdays game in tomorrow's reality.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2087
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 14:18

madrat wrote:In what scenario does an F-15C face an Su-35S without support from allied and stealth assets?

Seems silly to play yesterdays game in tomorrow's reality.


thats difficult to imagine but I wouldn't say impossible. I mean, do ground troops always get all the air support they requested for?
Theres a massive number of CAS and CAS capable platforms available. If ground troops can't get all the CAS they want in relatively small conflicts like the ones in the middle east. What more in a non-nuclear conflict with a Peer adversary like China.

Anyway, heres my point. Do you agree that the F-15C still has a niche to fill post 2040.
Why:
-You don't need Stealth for every mission (i.e. Air national guard duties)
-The F-35 still needs periodic RAM maintenance even if you never use it's stealth capabilities

However the F-15Cs, built in the 80s will be way past their service lives post 2040. So the USAF simply wants to keep a small fleet of F-15s for post 2040 ANG squadrons, but they can't buy brand new F-15Cs with 80 tech, so why not buy upgraded F-15QAs and F-15SAs that are currently being produced and call it F-15X. Thats what this is.
Offline
User avatar

botsing

Forum Veteran

Forum Veteran

  • Posts: 804
  • Joined: 05 Dec 2015, 18:09
  • Location: The Netherlands

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 14:53

zero-one wrote:thats difficult to imagine but I wouldn't say impossible.

It's silly to train for that once in a lifetime situation while you can put that same training-time into preparing for actual real life combat.


zero-one wrote:so why not buy upgraded F-15QAs and F-15SAs

Cost alone would be a reason:
SpudmanWP wrote:On the bean-counting side, that argument failed as soon as the F-35A dropped under $90 mil and it's CPFH dropped below the F-15E's.
"Those who know don’t talk. Those who talk don’t know"
Offline

crosshairs

Active Member

Active Member

  • Posts: 103
  • Joined: 18 Dec 2018, 19:03
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:02

zero-one wrote:
madrat wrote:In what scenario does an F-15C face an Su-35S without support from allied and stealth assets?

Seems silly to play yesterdays game in tomorrow's reality.


thats difficult to imagine but I wouldn't say impossible. I mean, do ground troops always get all the air support they requested for?
Theres a massive number of CAS and CAS capable platforms available. If ground troops can't get all the CAS they want in relatively small conflicts like the ones in the middle east. What more in a non-nuclear conflict with a Peer adversary like China.

Anyway, heres my point. Do you agree that the F-15C still has a niche to fill post 2040.
Why:
-You don't need Stealth for every mission (i.e. Air national guard duties)
-The F-35 still needs periodic RAM maintenance even if you never use it's stealth capabilities

However the F-15Cs, built in the 80s will be way past their service lives post 2040. So the USAF simply wants to keep a small fleet of F-15s for post 2040 ANG squadrons, but they can't buy brand new F-15Cs with 80 tech, so why not buy upgraded F-15QAs and F-15SAs that are currently being produced and call it F-15X. Thats what this is.


Just because you don't need stealth for ANG duties, if the cost of the LO platform is the same as or cheaper than the non-LO aircraft, then why not fill the ANG units with stealth?

F-4 Phantoms could easily fill ANG duties for homeland defense. Should the US have kept the Phantom in production just for to catch the occasional Cessna that flies off course? Or to intercept Russians on the West Coast? Why do we have F-22s doing that? You don't need a stealthy supercruiser to catch a bomber.
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3274
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown
  • Warnings: 3

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:07

It may also be that the F-35 has such dramatic advantages air to air that training exclusively on the air to air mission isn't warranted. I mean, if they can't see you, but you can see them and possess the means to reach out and touch them... there's not a lot of dogfighting that'll be going on.

On the other hand, I like the idea of a unit training JUST for air to air. I'm not certain why we couldn't devote some F-35 squadrons to that mission? They're going to be cheaper, check. They're going to be more capable, check. They're going to retain their air to ground capability if needed, check. Should just be a matter of switching out the pilot given an air to air or air to ground mission.

Am I missing something, or is it not just that simple?
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2087
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:21

botsing wrote:It's silly to train for that once in a lifetime situation while you can put that same training-time into preparing for actual real life combat.

training for that once in a lifetime situation is what every Nuclear armed unit does all the time.
But I think you may have misunderstood the statement. so lets recap:
madrat wrote:
In what scenario does an F-15C face an Su-35S without support from allied and stealth assets?

zero-one wrote:
thats difficult to imagine but I wouldn't say impossible.

botsing wrote:
It's silly to train for that once in a lifetime situation while you can put that same training-time into preparing for actual real life combat.


so I wasn't talking about training. I was simply trying to justify why the USAF may be interested in the F-15X. Not everything can be solved by buying more F-35s

Anyway I should have been more confident with my answer, because it actually happens often:
https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2017/08/ ... 17-Belarus

The United States has dispatched warplanes to patrol the skies over the Baltic region in an attempt to reinforce its allies from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) against what Washington regards as an alleged “Russian threat,” as Moscow is gearing up for major military drills.

Lithuania's Defense Ministry announced in a statement that seven US Air Force F-15 Eagle fighter jets had already landed in the country’s northern Siauliai military airbase, adding that the newly arrived fleet would begin to conduct the mission of air police over the Baltic States from September 1.


No mention of F-22s or F-35As or Bs ready to swoop in if the Flanker-E/S shows up.

zero-one wrote:so why not buy upgraded F-15QAs and F-15SAs
Cost alone would be a reason:


http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... nt-fighter
Boeing intends to deliver the F-15X at a flyaway cost well below that of an F-35A....Boeing will offer the F-15X under a fixed priced contract. In other words, whatever the jets actually end up costing, the Pentagon will pay a fixed price—Boeing would have to eat any overages.

In addition, our sources tell us that F-15X cost-per-flight-hour has been deeply investigated both by Boeing and by third parties by leveraging metrics from legacy F-15 operations and those of late-model Strike Eagle derivatives and even other fighters in the USAF's inventory. The final figure is said to be around $27,000 per flight hour.
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2087
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 16:23

Some new insights on the cost of the F-15X

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... nt-fighter

Boeing intends to deliver the F-15X at a flyaway cost well below that of an F-35A....Boeing will offer the F-15X under a fixed priced contract. In other words, whatever the jets actually end up costing, the Pentagon will pay a fixed price—Boeing would have to eat any overages.

In addition, our sources tell us that F-15X cost-per-flight-hour has been deeply investigated both by Boeing and by third parties by leveraging metrics from legacy F-15 operations and those of late-model Strike Eagle derivatives and even other fighters in the USAF's inventory. The final figure is said to be around $27,000 per flight hour.
Online

SpudmanWP

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 8370
  • Joined: 12 Oct 2006, 19:18
  • Location: California

Unread post15 Jan 2019, 17:33

vilters wrote:When enough F-35 are on the order books and the spare parts bins filled, and the maintenance costs starts to come down?

RCPFH (which is fuel & maintenance) has been coming down since day one. For FY2019 they seemed to have called a mulligan and just increased virtually everything across the board for inflation only instead of recalculating real-world costs. For FY2019 the RCPFH of an F-35A is just above the F-15E.

Image
"The early bird gets the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese."
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3274
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown
  • Warnings: 3

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 15:31

zero-one wrote:Some new insights on the cost of the F-15X

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/22 ... nt-fighter

Boeing intends to deliver the F-15X at a flyaway cost well below that of an F-35A....Boeing will offer the F-15X under a fixed priced contract. In other words, whatever the jets actually end up costing, the Pentagon will pay a fixed price—Boeing would have to eat any overages.

In addition, our sources tell us that F-15X cost-per-flight-hour has been deeply investigated both by Boeing and by third parties by leveraging metrics from legacy F-15 operations and those of late-model Strike Eagle derivatives and even other fighters in the USAF's inventory. The final figure is said to be around $27,000 per flight hour.


If the price is indeed going to be lower, then it can mean only 1 of 2 things..

1.) It's going to be devoid of any new motors, significant enhancements in radar/EW etc (Not much more capable than an F-15C) OR..

2.) It's going to cost Boeing $, not make them $.

It may well be that Boeing is shooting for #2, in an effort to keep the production line open to sell F-15SA like aircraft to other nations. It may also be their attempt to keep a foot in the fighter game, because if F-15 orders dry up - then their only project of note is the SH, and the sunset on that airframe is within view now too.

I rather agree that if the price for an F-35 is similar or lower than any F-15, we're better off buying the F-35 - even for less demanding missions. It might not need stealth in that environment, but what about combat deployments? The F-15's here in MA are responsible for the air defense of the entire Northeast. Yet, I've seen them deployed in air superiority missions to hotspots around the globe.

If that's going on, why wouldn't you want an F-35? It integrates better into an increasingly F-35 centric world, has worlds better performance and is going to be relevant for a hell of a lot longer.

If they do the F-15X, I hope it's the penultimate Eagle. But with better options, not for the USAF. Give them to say South Korea if they're looking for something to beef up their air superiority fleet. There's nothing North Korea is going to counter them with that can compare, and if the Chinese get involved then US F-35's will be right there.

My 2cc's...
Offline

mixelflick

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3274
  • Joined: 20 Mar 2010, 10:26
  • Location: Parts Unknown
  • Warnings: 3

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 15:45

Plus, let's not be like Canada..

"Flying, fighting and investing in today's aircraft, tomorrow... " :mrgreen:
Offline

zero-one

Elite 2K

Elite 2K

  • Posts: 2087
  • Joined: 23 Jul 2013, 16:19
  • Location: New Jersey

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 15:59

mixelflick wrote:
1.) It's going to be devoid of any new motors, significant enhancements in radar/EW etc (Not much more capable than an F-15C) OR..


Well hold on, they already said their baseline for the F-15X is the F-15QA and SA. Is it possible for them to make the F-15QA at around $80M... Who knows.

But if thats the case then it will be:
5th gen SA
4th gen Observability
4th gen kinematics
4th gen price

I wonder if it can compete with an AESA equipped Typhoon both BVR and WVR?
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4255
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 16:06

zero-one wrote: Is it possible for them to make the F-15QA at around $80M... Who knows.

F-15SK was $100M in 2006, why would the SA or QA be cheaper now?
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
Offline

basher54321

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1718
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2014, 15:43

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 16:39

zero-one wrote:
5th gen SA



Only thing seen so far on the F-15X is a hodgepodge of different pods and a lot of cost cutting which to me would say 4 Gen Sensor Fusion and also nothing like EODAS which is massive.
Last edited by basher54321 on 16 Jan 2019, 16:59, edited 2 times in total.
Offline

basher54321

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1718
  • Joined: 02 Feb 2014, 15:43

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 16:43

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
zero-one wrote: Is it possible for them to make the F-15QA at around $80M... Who knows.

F-15SK was $100M in 2006, why would the SA or QA be cheaper now?


The figures supposedly leaked to said bloggers that (they say) are going to appearing the budget request was for 12 x F-15X at $1.2Billion. Don't know what that entails but it looks about right doesn't it. :D
Offline

sprstdlyscottsmn

Elite 4K

Elite 4K

  • Posts: 4255
  • Joined: 10 Mar 2006, 01:24
  • Location: Phoenix, Az, USA

Unread post16 Jan 2019, 16:52

basher54321 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
zero-one wrote: Is it possible for them to make the F-15QA at around $80M... Who knows.

F-15SK was $100M in 2006, why would the SA or QA be cheaper now?


The figures supposedly leaked to said bloggers that (they say) are going to appearing the budget request was for 12 x F-15X at $1.2Billion. Don't know what that entails but it looks about right doesn't it. :D

Which was explained above that Boeing would eat the losses. They cannot make them at ~$80M, but they will sell them at ~$80M.
"Spurts"

-Pilot
-Aerospace Engineer
-Army Medic
-FMS Systems Engineer
PreviousNext

Return to Modern Military Aircraft

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 14 guests